(NO. 300.) SECOND READING. (Hansard, 8 August 1871)

§ EARL GRANVILLE
, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, he thought it unnecessary, after 1065 the Address unanimously adopted by their Lordships last week, to make any observations upon it.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
said, he had felt it his duty at the beginning of the present Session to address a few remarks to their Lordships with regard to the Message from Her Most Gracious Majesty touching the proposed allowance to Her Royal Highness the Princess Louise. He had then asked their Lordships to contradict or correct him if he had not conveyed himself with that respect and attachment to the person of Her Majesty, as well as to the high position she filled, or if he had not expressed what was the public opinion in regard to Her Majesty's retirement. None of their Lordships had then called in question what he had stated, and he thought himself perfectly entitled to infer from their silence that they gave their assent to his remarks. Having arrived at that point, their Lordships might think that he would show better discretion in not going further; but the question was now very difficult and serious, and was ventilated in every public paper, as well as in the other House of Parliament; and as public opinion was becoming stronger every day in regard to it, he thought that if their Lordships ignored the matter altogether the public would say that they had no sympathy with what people were saying, and that they thought more of convenience and etiquette than the real interests of the country. But the matter was worthy of very serious consideration, and he regretted that it was not brought before their Lordships by some one whose expression of opinion would give more weight to it. As the restrictions of party prevented others from doing so, he deemed it his duty, to the best of his power, to call their Lordships' attention to this all-important subject. There was one reason why the public would think their Lordships were less able than the younger generation to appreciate the public feeling in connection with this subject. Most of their Lordships, like himself, had attained a middle age, and would remember the time when Her Majesty came to the Throne, and by her presence amongst them, and by the exercise of her public virtues, how she attached 1066 all classes of the community to her person. This was not a mere matter of form, but a matter of deep feeling. Her Majesty was accustomed then to be seen constantly in public, and no one returned more gracefully or more graciously the salutations of the people who came to greet her. He knew—as all their Lordships must know—that everyone of a large crowd went home to their families and said they had seen the Queen, and that she had bowed to them; each took the compliment to himself, and henceforth there was a personal interest which connected them with their most gracious Sovereign. Unfortunately, circumstances occurred which obliged Her Majesty to retire from public for a certain time; but the public had long been most anxious that she should return amongst them and be known of them, for the rising generation had no personal knowledge of Her Majesty, and knew her only through the reports of the public papers. There was another matter which arose in connection with this subject, and they saw it daily touched on in the public papers. They saw Imperial and Royal personages in this country lodged in hotels about the town, and going about in hired carriages, while the public were asking whether we had become so parsimonious that the Royal visitors coming to this country could not be properly entertained? Now, the question here arose with whom did the blame lie? Did it lie with the Sovereign, or with the constitutional advisers of the Sovereign? There was no doubt in the world that the blame lay with Her Majesty's Government, with Her Majesty's Ministers, because Her Majesty had no responsibility except through her constitutional advisers. But, while acknowledging this constitutional doctrine, the public desired that the personal opinions, and the personal wisdom of the Sovereign, should have some bearing, as one of the great powers of the State, on public matters; and the result of Her Majesty's total retirement was that she was now so shut up in one political atmosphere that none other approached her, and she was totally unaware and uninformed of what was the public opinion on this and other important matters. If Her Majesty were mixing, as she had formerly done, in the world, she would meet statesmen and men of all parties, and know what the public 1067 opinion was, and not merely the opinion of one political party. Nor were these times when this question could slumber; it was a question which must be met; and when they considered what was the character of that great statesman who was at the head of Her Majesty's affairs, they must be more careful in doing their utmost to make Her Majesty acquainted with public opinion. The Prime Minister was a man of undoubted and, perhaps, unbounded ability; but he (Lord Oranmore and Browne) had heard that his (Mr. Gladstone's) best friends had often said of him—and he spoke of the Prime Minster specially and not of Her Majesty's Government, because he was held to deal with his Colleagues with not much more consideration than he dealt with this House—that his mind was so enlarged by the quantity of information he had acquired on every matter that he had the greatest possible difficulty in making up his mind as to what was right or wrong. At any rate one thing was certain; the Prime Minister had shown that he had not great respect for any of our institutions, for there was not one institution of the country which had not been shaken since Her Majesty's present Government came into power. Through an Act of the Session before last a shake was given to the Protestant institutions under which Her Majesty sat on the Throne. By an Act of the last Session a shake was given to the security of property; and the other day, by the manner in which the Prerogative was exercised, another shake was given to the privileges of this House and to the Crown itself, for the statement in the other night's debate that the Royal Warrant abolishing purchase, however unintentionally on the part of Her Majesty's Government, was brought about, by misrepresentation to the Sovereign, had not been denied. It was brought about by representing to the Sovereign that she acted under statute, whereas she acted solely on her Prerogative. There was a slur inflicted by the exercise of this Prerogative on the decision which had been arrived at by this House, so thus another shake had been given to another institution of the country. They knew that the Army was in a disordered state; they knew the Navy was in the same state; they knew the disorder which prevailed in the other House of Parliament, 1068 which was wanting the exercise of a mind that could govern men. When they considered that all our institutions had been more or less disturbed or shaken, it was most important that they should endeavour to secure that public opinion should reach the Throne. If Her Majesty's Ministers had conveyed public opinion to the Throne, there was not the least reason to doubt that Her Most Gracious Majesty, with that conscientiousness which she had always shown, would sacrifice her own pleasure for the public good, and that she would before that have acceded to the strong and earnest desire on the part of the people that she should be more among us, and that she should thereby secure the continuance of that cordial goodwill which had so long existed between her and the people of this country, and which was the solidest foundation of the Throne itself.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
I venture to protost against the doctrine laid down by the noble Lord at the beginning of his remarks, that whenever he makes observations, however relevant or irrelevant they may be to the subject before the House, if other Peers do not immediately challenge the view which he takes your Lordships unanimously acquiesce in it. With regard to the relevancy of his speech on the second reading of a Bill introduced in pursuance of an Address unanimously and cordially agreed to by your Lordships on both sides of the House, the noble Lord apparently thought it his duty—being, as he told us, almost the only organ of public opinion that could reach Her Majesty—to read a lecture to the Sovereign, to discuss in terms which I might almost say were offensive and impertinent the personal character of Mr. Gladstone.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
I rise to Order, and to ask whether that is a word which can be used consistently with the Rules of the House?

§ EARL GRANVILLE
If there is any word more Parliamentary meaning the same thing, I will use it.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I think the noble Earl, who so constantly appeals to the Standing Orders, should withdraw the word "impertinent."

§ EARL GRANVILLE
I am quite ready to withdraw the term impertinent; but I certainly cannot substitute pertinent 1069 for it. The noble Lord chooses to discuss Mr. Gladstone's personal character, and to announce to these benches that he treats his own Colleagues with a want of consideration. He then, in the playful manner which has become so natural and easy to him, describes Mr. Gladstone as absolutely without the power of making up his mind, in consequence of the vast amount of information stored in his head. I can only say that, on nearly every point on which he has touched, the noble Lord has shown that it is not that vast amount of information which prevents his taking a line which is quite his own. With regard to the Sovereign, the noble Lord has himself acknowledged that it is a very delicate question to discuss the personal character of the Queen, and what Her Majesty ought or ought not to do. He talks of Her Majesty only getting information from one political party. Now, one of the characteristics of the Sovereign, to which I am sure all who have ever been called to her councils will testify, is that whatever party may be in in power, she ever holds the most open and confidential communications with them; and, more than this, without in any degree acting in a manner liable to misconstruction, she does see the Leaders of the party in opposition to the Government. I do not know anytime of her life when Her Majesty has given more attention than she does at present to the current business of the State, or when the interest she takes in all Parliamentary and administrative measures, the knowledge she takes care to possess on all important measures, whether home or foreign, and the supervision she exercises ever all appointments to be made and honours to be distributed, have been more strikingly shown. I quite admit—and we as much as anyone regret it—that she does not show herself as much among us as we should wish; but I think it is a great thing to say of any Monarch that that is the only reproach which her people have ever addressed to her. That, moreover, is a thing which depends very much on Her Majesty's own estimate, and that of her medical advisers, of her bodily strength and power, and of how far she can do it. To introduce the subject, however, I think your Lordships will agree with me, would have been unbecoming, particularly this year, when Her Majesty made an effort which 1070 even in the happiest times, and under the guidance of her late Consort, was always an immense effort, and one made with great difficulty—I mean the opening of Parliament in person, and when Her Majesty has on other public occasions shown herself to her people. I can only say that I trust as time goes on Her Majesty will have increased opportunities of showing herself to the public; but I am quite sure that without previous inquiry, and with only the very superficial information which the noble Lord possesses, it is not for this House to lay down precise rules for the personal conduct of Her Majesty.

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
I have no intention of going into the merits or demerits of the Prime Minister, the condition of the Army and Navy, or the general topics to which the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne) has referred; but I am bound to corroborate most distinctly the noble Earl's (Earl Granville's) statement by testifying to the great cordiality with which we on this side of the House are always received by Her Majesty. I was not a very long time in office, but I can say this—and I think I am speaking the opinion of all with whom I had the honour of acting—that on all occasions, from the time we took office to the time we left it, Her Majesty treated us invariably in the most frank and open manner possible.