Lords Sitting of 4 August 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Lodgers Goods Protection (283).
Report—Dean Forest and Hundred of St. Briavels* (287).
Third Reading — Norwich Voters Disfranchisement* (164); Army Regulation (296), and passed.

PARLIAMENT—BILLS—NEW STANDING ORDER.
LORD REDESDALE, in proposing as an addition to the Standing Orders—
"That when a Bill brought from the House of Commons shall have remained on the Table of this House for twelve sitting days without any Lord giving notice of the Second Reading thereof, such Bill shall not any longer appear in the Minutes, and shall not be further proceeded with in the same Session,"
824
said, his object was to remedy the unfortunate habit of letting Bills remain on the Paper for weeks and taking them up late in the Session, when nobody was prepared to discuss them. An instance of this occurred yesterday, for it would have been much more satisfying had the House of Commons (Witnesses) Bill been proceeded with earlier.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had no objection to the Motion, and believed that it would make the Departments of the Government more attentive to the progress of their Bills.
Motion agreed to.

CAMP OF INSTRUCTION—MILITARY MANŒUVRES.

  ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.
  LORD OVERSTONE, in moving—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to request that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to order that there be laid before this House Copy of the Minute of the Under Secretary of State for War of the 8th July last, directing an examination of the country in the neighbourhood of Wantage and Lockinge,"
  said, that as he understood there would be no opposition to the production of the Paper, he should not repeat his observations on the subject, further than to say he should like, if possible, to have, as an addition, the full documents upon which the Minute of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Surveyor General of Ordnance of the 28th July last relative to the proposed camp of manœuvres was founded.
  Moved, that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copy of the Minute of the Under Secretary of State for War of the 8th July last, 61039/49, directing an examination of the country in the neighbourhood of Wantage and Lockinge.—(The Lord Overstone.)
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that there was no objection to the Minute being produced.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, he thought that to confine the movements to marching and outpost duties as proposed was preposterous. General officers should be instructed to attack each other, and as umpire should judge of their merits, as in Prussia. The operations now contemplated might be carried out under the command of a civilian, and they could be effected at Aldershot without the expense of forming camps. He hoped there would be real camps of instruction and manœuvre.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that the proposal alluded to by the noble Lord (Lord Vivian) had not been approved, and would not be carried out. The noble Lord had misapprehended the nature of the operations which were intended, for the movements of the troops would by no means be confined within the limits the noble Lord anticipated. It had been strongly recommended that the memorandum as to the operations should be treated as a confidential document, it being very important that the details of the proposed operations should not be disclosed beforehand. The paragraph on the omission of which the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) commented last night simply referred to that confidential memorandum, which merely contained a sketch of the manœuvres. It had no bearing on the other questions under discussion.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook) had made no allusion to some matters which were referred to by the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) on the previous evening, neither had he given any explanation as to the want of courtesy shown to the farmers of the district where the review was to have taken place, who had shown so much interest and public spirit in the matter. The public had rarely felt more disappointment and mortification than in the present case. The Estimates for the Army during the present Session were very large; but public attention having been strongly drawn to the subject by the occurrence of one of the greatest wars ever known on the Continent, a general desire was expressed that the Army should be placed on an improved footing and rendered as efficient, in proportion to its numbers, as the armies of foreign Powers. When such liberal supplies had been voted for military purposes without any grudging, it was hoped that the country would have seen some satisfactory result of the re-organization of the Army, so that it might be manifest that the money had not been thrown away. In fact, a promise had been given that the results of the proposed improvements should be manifested, and that the public would be satisfied with the attention given to the matter by the War Office. Instead of that, however, they were now told suddenly that the expected manœuvres were not to take place, though those
  826
  intimately concerned with the matter had not even received notice that there had been a change in the intentions of the Government. It was a fault the way in which the Government had conveyed to the public the reasons for giving up these manœuvres, and as a consequence of that fault, great dissatisfaction had arisen. They should have been cautious in promising so early in the year things which they had no idea whether they would be able to perform. He was not acquainted with the gallant officers who were sent to inspect the ground, and whilst he had no doubt that they were men who thoroughly knew their duty, he must say that, at all events, they did not appear to be sanguine, and their Report did not indicate an anxiety that the manœuvres should be held. Indeed, he thought its tone was decidedly discouraging. He thought that it was a mistake to appoint the 9th of September, because even in the southern counties the harvest was seldom housed before that day, and generally there was a great deal of barley out beyond that time. The tone of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Surveyor General of Ordnance was equally discouraging, because he said that the equinoctial gales might be expected about that period. Why could not the manœuvres have been postponed until after the equinoctial gales were over — that was until the 1st of October — that month being the finest one in the English year? Those really were not good excuses for putting off a review which, for very important reasons, should have been carried out. Besides, the reasons given were not at all fair or complimentary to the British soldier. They had all heard of "paper soldiers;" but surely their soldiers were not made of sugar, nor afraid of a shower of rain, or of the heat of the sun. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman also said that the owners of horses expressed the greatest disinclination to hire them out; but that was a difficulty that would always be felt, and the Government should bear in mind, on any future occasion, that they would have to meet that difficulty. He heartily wished, for the sake of the reputation of the Army, and the confidence we should feel that they were effective; that the Government had, at an earlier period, considered whether they could carry out their plans.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEasked whether the commanding officers would be changed in the course of the manœuvres, so as to give various persons an opportunity of exercising their talents; whether it would be decided what troops were to retire and what were to advance; and, whether umpires would be appointed to decide whether the manœuvres had been successfully and properly carried out?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the Government were apparently exercising that policy of silence which they had recommended in their proceedings "elsewhere," and that that policy seemed especially necessary with regard to War Office matters. He would, however, again ask why no consultation was had with the farmers in Berkshire, who would have known better than anybody else as to the prospects of the harvest, and the inclination as to the supply of transport. Anything that threw light upon the Control department was interesting at that moment, and therefore it was as well to see how they set to work to ascertain whether the harvest would be late or not. One would have supposed that they would have applied to the farmers; but that was not their idea. Their idea was to send down two general officers to make what they called inquiries upon the spot—what particular spot was not known—and having done this, they came back and said—"The harvest will be very late." He should like some information as to the views of the Control Office in reference to meteorology. They appeared to think a fortnight's military manœuvres impossible unless held after harvest and before the equinoctial gales. Now, in the latitude of Berkshire the harvest was very seldom entirely carried before the end of August, and the equinoctial gales often came at the beginning of September. ["Oh!"] They occurred three weeks on either side of the equinox, and as frequently before as after. The English people were in a melancholy position if, with the wettest climate in the world, their Army could not face wet weather. He hoped their soldiers would henceforth be so fortified as not to be afraid of rain, and it might be as well for the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook) to ascertain General Moltke's views of wet weather, and whether the Prussian Armies ever served at such times. The Government, at any rate,
  828
  before making plans of this kind, should take means to carry them out, and should not affect to be frightened by such trivial incidents as a late harvest, and the wet weather generally accompanying the equinoctial gales. The Papers published by the Government, and the peculiar way in which they had defended their conduct, could only strengthen the suspicion that the real cause for the abandonment of these manœuvres had not been disclosed, and that there was some breakdown somewhere, and must tend to increase that distrust of the Control department which was becoming more and more general.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it would be a great relief if the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) would, in one single speech, at least, during the Session, abstain from imputing disgraceful motives to his opponents.
  THE MARQUESS of SALISBURYsaid, he must ask the noble Earl (Earl Granville) to explain what disgraceful motive he (the Marquess of Salisbury) had mentioned. He had only referred to the fear of wet weather, and he did not know that that was disgraceful.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, in continuation, that the noble Marquess had rather shirked the question by going back to what he said about the weather, for he certainly finished his speech by hinting that some secret motive had induced this change of plan. As to silence on the part of the Government, he generally thought it the best tactics not to speak on things with which he was not well acquainted. His noble Friend (Lord Northbrook) had acted quite properly in waiting till the questions put to the Government on very small details, with which nobody but himself was acquainted, were exhausted before he rose to reply. As to discourtesy towards the farmers, he was not sufficiently acquainted with the facts to explain the matter; but it was certainly strange to represent that the War Office could not form an opinion whether the harvest would be late or not without applying to the farmers in one particular county.
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, that the question he had asked turned on the absence of any explanation why, instead of communicating with an intelligent and zealous committee of agriculturists, the War Office sent down two military men, who were not even informed of the

  829
  committee's existence. The committee had for two or three months been in continuous communication with the Government, and their views had been triumphantly quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War in the House of Commons, yet when a difficulty supposed to arise from a late harvest and a wet season had to be considered the officers sent down were prohibited—for that was what it amounted to—from communicating with the committee. A simple-minded man could not but infer from what had passed that there was something more than appeared on the surface.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, it was evident there was neither any local nor any military objection to the carrying out of the original plan. The Secretary of State might have announced such a scheme, and altered or abandoned it without giving any reasons; but the reasons he had given were such that Parliament and the public naturally expected some further explanation. He was not prejudiced against the Control system, for he was one of its godfathers, though he should have some difficulty in recognizing it in its present shape. The office of Surveyor General of Ordnance was created for the purpose of consolidating four or five departments supposed to work cumbrously, yet he was sure those cumbrous departments would have easily accomplished what the improved administration could not effect—namely, effectively transport and supply these 30,000 men. It was the business of the Surveyor General to facilitate measures resolved upon by the War Office; but he apparently realized the apprehension which had been expressed by the illustrious Duke at the head of the Army when the formation of the Control department was under discussion, that an officer might be created with power in his hands to raise difficulties, and to control not only those below but those above him.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he thought the real reason of the change was that the original scheme had proved more costly than was expected, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not sanction the expenditure.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the reason why he had not risen earlier in the debate was, as his noble Friend (Earl Granville) had stated, because he wished
  830
  to give an opportunity for any further questions that might he asked in connection with the subject. It was hardly fair for the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) to accuse him of reticence, for he went into the whole question on Tuesday night at such length that he was afraid of being tedious. The insinuations of the noble and gallant Earl (the Earl of Longford) respecting Sir Henry Storks were quite unjustifiable, for Sir Henry, instead of thwarting the project, had from the first engaged that his department should facilitate it in every possible manner. It was obviously his duty, however, to point out any circumstances which appeared to affect the plans; and, as had been already explained, contingencies arose affecting the facilities of obtaining transport. The noble Earls (the Earls of Longford and Malmesbury) had stated that the original plan was not to be carried out; but that was not the fact, and he begged most distinctly to say that the original plan would be carried out. The original plan was that in the course of the autumn 30,000 men, composed partly of Regulars, and partly of Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, should meet for manœuvres. The first place intended for the assembly was in Hampshire, but it was afterwards arranged that it should take place in Berkshire. This latter intention had been abandoned in consequence of the lateness of the harvest. The manœuvres would now be carried out in Surrey and Hampshire; and he would ask whether, on account of the mere transfer of operations from one county to another, the Government could fairly be charged with abandoning the manœuvres? The change of place was no reason whatever for asserting that the manœuvres had been abandoned, and, provided the manœuvres were of the same class and on the same scale, it was immaterial, except to the residents of the districts in the counties concerned, where they were held. That the area now chosen was unsuitable was not the opinion of men of the greatest military knowledge, for he met the other day with the report of a paper read by Lieutenant Colonel Bray, of the 4th King's Own, at the United Service Royal Artillery Institution, on the Prussian manœuvres, and he observed that in the discussion which followed a distinguished officer—Sir Linthorn Sim-

  831
  mons—referred to this area as well adapted to extended manœuvres on the Prussian system. This was before the locality was selected. It was also obvious, whether the fact was reported by the Inspector General of Fortifications or by the Control department, that the harvest would probably be later than it had been for a considerable number of years. He very much regretted that there was any feeling among the gentlemen in Berkshire who had co-operated with the Government in reference to these manœuvres, that they had not been consulted before the last decision was come to. He had communicated with the Secretary of State for War, and he was able to say that this impression had arisen in consequence of a misapprehension. The Secretary of State for War and Sir Henry Storks, after the meeting on the 24th July, at which the Reports of the Inspector General and the Quartermaster General were received, saw Colonel Loyd Lindsay in the House of Commons, and told him that they anticipated difficulty in consequence of the lateness of the harvest. From that gentleman, as the representative of the Berkshire Committee, the Secretary of State for War understood that a meeting would be held in Berkshire on the following Wednesday on the subject. It was necessary that the Government should decide on Saturday, the 31st July, and the Secretary of State for War expected to have heard from Colonel Loyd Lindsay the result of the Berkshire meeting on the Wednesday, before the meeting on the Saturday was held at the War Office. He received, however, no communication from Colonel Loyd Lindsay, and immediately after the meeting on Saturday he communicated to him the decision to postpone the manœuvres. The want of further communication arose, therefore, from some misapprehension in reference to the date of the meeting to be held in Berkshire. His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War was the very last person to do anything discourteous, especially to gentlemen whom he had on many occasions thanked for the assistance which he had received from them. The noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) said they promised what they had not intended to perform. But as it was intended that these manœuvres would yet take place, that remark was,
  832
  to say the least, premature. The manœuvres were still to be held, and he should shortly submit to their Lordships a Bill giving powers for the purpose over the proposed area. It was a misapprehension to suppose that the manœuvres were designed only to test the powers of the Control department, for there were other objects of equal or greater importance. Since this time last year every branch of Army organization involving the constitution of a corps d'armée had been revised, with a view of placing them on a footing more in accordance with the practice of modern days. This had been done by a Committee composed of officers belonging to the different branches of the service, and their recommendations required practical testing, in order to see whether any modifications were requisite. Instruction in tactics and strategy, moreover, the value of which had been urged by the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn), could in many respects, according to the best authorities, be conveyed by manœuvres of the Prussian class, such as were now intended. In these and other respects the manœuvres were very important, and they were not intended for a mere military promenade, in order to test the transport and supply department only. As to the noble Viscount's (Viscount Melville's) question, the officers to command had not yet been selected, and he could not say whether they would or would not be changed during the course of the operations. The provisions of an umpire staff for the purpose of deciding when troops were to retire or advance was under consideration, and the arrangements would be notified previously te the commencement of the manœuvres. The Government, he assured the House, were keeping nothing behind, and had no reasons which they had not plainly stated. The two distinguished officers whose Report had been challenged had reported honestly and conscientiously, and had they said the harvest would be early when it was likely to be late, they would not have performed their duty. Their Report was sensible, straightforward, short, and to the point. They had pointed out the probable lateness of the harvest, and the difficulty of encamping on arable land in bad weather, and had suggested an alternative scheme. As to the remarks of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), uttered in his usual caustic

  833
  manner, although the Government had not considered it advisable to postpone the manœuvres till a later date, when the nights would be longer, and the chances of bad weather greater, it was not to be inferred that the British Army was unfit to go out in damp or cold weather. No Minister was justified, for the purpose of manœuvres, in exposing troops to hardships which in actual service they would undergo with the greatest alacrity. When called upon they would be ready to act in any weather; but some consideration should be shown to them and to the Reserve forces when they were simply sent out for the purpose of practice. The amended plan would give as much instruction to the officers concerned as the original scheme, while heathy uninclosed land—such as they had now decided on—was better fitted for manœuvres when the harvest was likely to be late.
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, that with regard to what had been stated by the noble Lord who had last spoken (Lord Northbrook) as to the knowledge of Colonel Loyd Lindsay with respect to the intentions of the Government to change the arena for the contemplated manœuvres, he (Lord Overstone) was with that hon. and gallant Gentleman on Saturday last, when a letter was received by him from a Member of that House, saying that the writer thought it well to let him know that the campaign in Berkshire was to be put off in consequence of the state of the harvest. Colonel Loyd Lindsay was utterly surprised, and we both agreed that the person who would be sure to know all about it would be the chairman of the committee of farmers in Berkshire, to whom they repaired, only, however, to learn that he knew nothing about it. On the following morning came a letter from the Secretary of State for War, informing Colonel Loyd Lindsay of the fact, and giving quite a different account of the alternative from that which had been submitted to the House that evening. In that note there was no reference to any anticipated difficulty on the part of the farmers, or to any anticipated meeting of the committee.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he had spoken three times on this subject.
  LORD OVERSTONEexplained that he had again risen in consequence of allusions to facts of which he was personally cognizant.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he must disclaim having imputed to the British Army any fear of wet weather. He had only commented on that as one of the reasons assigned by the War Office.
  LORD TRUROsaid, he trusted the character of the manœuvres would not be changed, and that the troops would not be broken up into two or three camps.
  Motion agreed to.

  ARMY REGULATION BILL—(No. 296).
  (The Lord Northbrook.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord Northbrook.)
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, though it would be useless for him to attempt to stop the further progress of that Bill, he could not help expressing the apprehensions he entertained of the ill-consequences which the measure would have in the future upon that Army with which he had been from early youth connected, and in which he had served 40 years. He felt that that Army was now about to lose its monarchical and national character, and to become the instrument of the Minister of the day for good or for evil. Under a system of selection the Army would be lowered to the standard of a Parliamentary and political force.
  THE MARQUESS OF EXETERsaid, he could not allow the third reading to pass without protesting against the measure. The Bill came up late to their Lordships' House, and he regretted that their Lordships did not stand by their first decision not to read the Bill a second time until the Government laid all their plans for organizing the Army before Parliament. With regard to the Militia, he suggested to the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War that there should be more sergeants to the companies, and that the adjutants, when they had served a long time, should have decent retiring allowances. He also hoped the noble

  835
  Lord would take into consideration the keeping of sergeants in such a position for at least a fortnight after disbanding a regiment, as would prevent the men "paying out," as they called it, sergeants who had done their duty.
  LORD ROMILLYsaid, he wished to explain why he had taken the course he had done in regard to that Bill. He knew something about the principle of selection, and that led him to think that it was very desirable that they should have clearly denned what they were going to put in the place of purchase. Twenty years ago he was placed at the head of the records of this country. He had under him 37 officers in five different departments, and whenever a vacancy occurred it was his duty to appoint a person to the post. Some time after this duty had devolved on him, on an occasion when a vacancy arose, he requested the gentlemen to submit to a voluntary examination, which would, of course, be anonymous. They all consented with one exception. When it was found he took this course he received a severe rebuke from the Treasury. Since then he had made two selections not according to seniority. The first was not followed by the Treasury. In the second case he received a long letter from the Treasury, requesting him to explain why he had not appointed the senior. He wrote a long letter, pointing out the evil of this system, as it allowed in every case the dissatisfied officer to report to the Treasury, and he explained his reason for the selection he had made; in that case those reasons appeared satisfactory. Now, in the course of the discussion on that Bill, he heard some remarks which, with that experience, led him to believe that selection could not be practically followed, and that the Bill would resolve itself into appointments by seniority, which he thought a very objectionable course. The English Army had been a most distinguished Army, and he thought a good deal of care should be given to whatever was put in the place of that which supplied us with such good officers. Election might do, but not selection. Early in life he knew some French soldiers who had been through the Russian campaign, and they said that after the French the English troops were the best in the world, but that the English officers were better than any
  836
  officers, better even than the French; which they accounted for by the fact that this country, they said, had a system by which rich men were allowed to pay so much money for the privilege of serving the country as an officer. He admitted his ignorance of the subject, but he did as it was his duty to do—pay the best attention he could, to the subject when before Parliament; and he was brought to the conclusion that that was a measure for the benefit of the rich, in which the poor man who rose from the ranks was wholly neglected, and that the effect of the Bill was to throw on the public a burden now cheerfully borne by the rich. These considerations led him to take the course he had done on this subject.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he would ask the noble and learned Lord (Lord Romilly) whether he would introduce purchase into the Rolls Office, for that was the inference to be deduced from his train of reasoning. Their Lordships were told that selection had its evils, and that was perfectly true, because it was possible for the person selecting to make a bad selection; but it did not, therefore, follow that the evils of another system, such as purchase, were not greater; for although he knew little or nothing of the Army, he was acquainted with the Civil Service, and could state that it was the practice of the Government to select persons for very important occupations, and upon the whole those selections were not badly made. As for the supposition that purchase was the cause of the British officer being what he was, nothing could be more derogatory to the character of Englishmen than to say that before they could become good officers, they must pay large sums of money for their commissions. The advantage, and the only one, of purchase was, that it enabled officers to obtain higher rank at an earlier period than they could do so under a system of seniority; but the contention that purchase ensured the merits of the British officer refuted itself.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he wished to say a few words in explanation of the votes he had given on that subject, because he might appear to have been inconsistent in first opposing the second reading of the Bill, and afterwards dividing against the Resolution proposed by the noble Duke (the

  837
  Duke of Richmond). His intention in voting against the second reading was to stop the Bill; and he was perfectly prepared, if it were possible, to vote against the Bill again, because he believed it would do a great injury to the British Army, and that the people of this country would be of opinion before many years were over that the nation had been subjected to unnecessary taxation. But when Her Majesty's Ministers, by using the weapon in their hands, had made that change, the Resolution of the noble Duke was brought forward. Its object, however, was not to oppose their action, nor did it seek to turn them out; though he for one—while on other grounds he did not wish to displace the Government from office — would have gone that length, if by so doing he could have stopped the Bill. Considering that the Resolution was a barren censure upon men who had done what they believed to be their duty, he did not support it, inasmuch as it would have had no beneficial effect.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the noble Marquess who had just spoken (the Marquess of Clanricarde), and his noble Friend behind him (the Marquess of Exeter) had put a construction on the Bill, which he should be sorry to allow it to bear; and in the absence of the noble Duke who had led the opposition to it (the Duke of Richmond), he wished to make a remark on the real character of the Bill. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) spoke of the Bill as though it was a measure for the abolition of purchase; but it was nothing of the kind. If it did abolish purchase, those who thought sufficient preparation had not been made for such a change would be bound to vote against it. The Bill, however, had, except some minor alterations, been reduced to this point: it compensated the officers and indemnified them from prosecution. He agreed that it was a matter of some doubt whether it would not have been better to have thrown out the Bill, and left the Government to introduce a new Bill for the compensation of the officers; but it was felt by many friends of the officers that probably the result of such a course would be to hang up the whole subject for a year, to the injury of the pecuniary interests of the officers. He did not think they had been at all incon-
  838
  sistent in allowing the Bill to go forward in its present form.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he thought the position taken up by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was a perfectly correct and sensible one; and it agreed very much with the view of the Government.
  On Question? Resolved in the Affirmative.
  Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments.
  On Motion, That the Bill do pass,
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he must oppose Clause 6, which transferred the powers of the Lords Lieutenant of counties, with regard to the auxiliary forces, to the Secretary of State; and would move in page 4, line 32, to leave out ("her Secretary of State") and insert ("the Commander-in-Chief.") He would ask their Lordships to continue to the Lords Lieutenant those powers which they had hitherto usefully employed; he also desired that they should be authorized to grant first commissions, and that all recommendations, whether for promotion or exchange, should pass through their hands, the Lords Lieutenant having power to endorse those recommendations.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, if the Government, as he had been given to understand, intended to send regiments to different districts, and make Militia regiments a sort of reserve for the Line, and appoint the officers of the Line to command the Militia, it would be advisable to give the Commander-in-Chief the power of appointing those officers, because he would obviously be far more competent to judge of an officer's capabilities than the Secretary for War. For that reason it appeared to him evidently necessary that the Amendment of the noble Lord should at once be adopted, and he had great pleasure in seconding it.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, he trusted the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn) would not press the Amendment, for it was contrary to the whole principle of the Bill. An Order in Council had already been laid on the Table appointing the Commander-in-Chief the officer who would select officers; and the appointments would be made by him subject to the approval of the Secretary of State. He took this opportunity of

  839
  thanking the noble and gallant Lord for the suggestions he had made, and assured him that they would receive careful consideration.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that if the Amendment were adopted the whole clause would require re-construction, which would be then impossible, as the Bill had been read a third time.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he thought that the Government ought to take steps to prevent local Parliamentary influence being brought to bear in respect to the appointments of Militia officers.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he was quite sure that if the whole of these powers in question were transferred without control of any kind to the Commander-in-Chief, it would produce unmitigated confusion.
  THE MARQUESS OF EXETERsaid, he thought that the military authorities would be obliged to resort to an objectionable mode of raising the men that would be required.
  LORD STRATHNAIRN, understanding that the selection would be in the hands of the Commander-in-Chief, said he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Amendment moved, in page 5, line 9, after ("issued") to insert—
  ("Commissions or first appointments to the rank of cornet, ensign, or lieutenant in any regiment or corps of militia, yeomanry, or volunteers shall be given to persons recommended by the lieutenants of the county to which such regiment or corps belongs, if a person approved by Her Majesty is recommended for any such commission or appointment within thirty days after notice of a vacancy for such commission or appointment has been given to such lieutenant by the said Secretary of State, by letter addressed to him by post.")—(The Duke of Buckingham.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Other Amendments agreed to.
  Motion agreed to; Bill passed.

  LODGERS' GOODS PROTECTION BILL.
  (The Lord Chelmsford.)

  (NO. 283.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD CHELMSFORD, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to amend the law
  840
  which gave a landlord power to seize, under a distress for rent, all the goods and chattels of under tenants found on the premises of his immediate tenant. In the case of such a seizure the Bill gave the aggrieved parties a remedy by making a declaration before a magistrate that the goods seized were not the property of the tenant who owed the rent for the recovery of which the distress was made, but theirs, and that they were not indebted to him for rent. They would be further required to furnish an inventory of all the goods and chattels so seized. If the superior landlord persevered in retaining these goods, he would be liable to an action for an illegal distress. The Bill provided not only that protection which the under tenant or lodger ought to have, but guarded also the interests of the other parties concerned, because it would enable a person on whom a distress was levied to have the rent due to him available in part satisfaction of the rent due to the superior landlord, and the superior landlord to have that advantage with respect to the goods of the tenant to which he was justly entitled.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chelmsford.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he should not oppose the Bill, while he at the same time must observe that it proposed to effect a very considerable alteration in the law. He was prepared to admit that he did not regard it as just that a landlord should be enabled to pay himself out of the goods of another person.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he was not sure that, while the Bill would remedy one hardship, it might not create another which was greater. If so great an alteration was introduced into the existing law it ought, in his opinion, to be done on the responsibility of the Government.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was afraid that one of the effects of the operation of the Bill would be to increase rents, inasmuch as it would diminish the security for the payment of his rent now available to the landlord.
  LORD COLONSAYsubmitted that the Bill would be wholly inapplicable to Scotland.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, the Bill would not apply to Scotland.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAM AND CHANDOSsaid, that whether the law on the subject was or was not in a satisfactory state, the Bill was one of great importance, and demanded much consideration. The subject, however, was one which could not be dealt with in the summary way proposed. It seemed to him that the provisions of the measure opened the way to much fraud and collusion, and, as a remedy, he thought it ought to contain provisions rendering it necessary that a landlord should be warned that certain persons were lodgers or under-tenants. He would therefore move, as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.
  Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and insert ("this day three months.")—(The Duke of Buckingham and Chandos.)
  On Question, Whether the word ("now") shall stand part of the Motion? Resolved in the Affirmative.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.