Lords Sitting of 3 August 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Government Board* (291); Reductions ex capite lecti Abolition* (292); Telegraph (Money)* (293).
Second Reading—House of Commons (Witnesses) (198), debate adjourned; Intoxicating Liquors Licenses Suspension* (282); Friendly Societies Commission* (284).
Committee—Dean Forest and Hundred of St. Briavels*(287).
Committee—Report—Norwich Voters Disfranchisement* (164); Municipal Corporation Act Amendment* (273).
Report—Tramways Provisional Orders Confirmation* (263); Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders Suspension* (274); Army Regulation* (289–296).
Third Reading—Bishops Resignation Act (1869) Perpetuation* (270); Railway Regulation Amendment* (288), and passed.

CAMP OF INSTRUCTION—MILITARY MANŒUVRES.—EXPLANATION.
LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he wished to explain that in his remarks on Tuesday evening on the sudden abandonment of the proposed camp of manœuvres on the Berkshire Downs, he had no

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intention of passing any reflection on the conduct of the officers sent down by the War Office to make inquiries as to the state of the harvest. He had no doubt that they had ably and faithfully performed the duty intrusted to them; but the surprising thing was that they were sent down without any instructions to apply to the proprietor of a large part of the land on which the manœuvres were to have been held, Colonel Loyd Lindsay, or to the committee whose co-operation had been so often alluded to and acknowledged by the Secretary of State for War. Indeed, they made their inquiries and drew up their Report in entire ignorance of the existence of such a committee. He had been furnished with a copy of a resolution unanimously agreed to by the committee at a meeting at Wantage yesterday, and, as it would probably find its way into the papers, he thought it right that their Lordships should be made acquainted with it. It was a spontaneous expression of feeling which had not been in the least suggested or influenced by Colonel Loyd Lindsay or himself, and their Lordships would observe that its language was very outspoken, and that it was not couched possibly in altogether Parliamentary language. The resolution was in these terms—
"The committee have learnt with the greatest surprise and strong disapprobation that the intended assembly of the forces on the Berkshire Downs has been abandoned. The committee protest that the lateness of the harvest is no reason for such abandonment as far as the farmers are concerned, inasmuch as they have not departed from their original intention, and wish to aid in the proposed arrangement, and to supply the necessary local transport according to their resolutions of the 10th and 24th of May.
"The committee consider that, as the Secretary of State for War approved and acknowledged with apparent satisfaction the proceedings and co-operation which it had exhibited in the first instance, it has been treated with a want of courtesy in not having been communicated with direct for the purpose of supplying the latest information with respect to the state of the harvest and the sentiments of the farmers previous to the unaccountable change which has taken place in the intentions of the Government.
"Signed on behalf of the committee,
"ALBERT WILLIAMS, Chairman."
Now, as to want of courtesy, this was a secondary matter in the opinion of wise men between equals; but when shown by superiors to inferiors, as in this case—for a body of farmers, however influential and intelligent, must be
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regarded as in a subordinate position to Members of the Government—it became somewhat more serious. He had no doubt, however, that he could satisfy the committee that no discourtesy had been intended; but he did not expect to be able to satisfy them of the propriety of the "unaccountable change in the intentions of the Government." An explanation, indeed, of this had been laid before Parliament and the public; but it had certainly not given satisfaction. In the documents published to-day he observed that the Quartermaster General and the Inspector General of Fortifications commenced their joint Report by an allusion to the instructions conveyed to them. Now, he wished to ask whether the Government would lay on the Table those instructions, which were obviously essential to a complete explanation of the matter? He also wished to ask whether the Report of those officers had been laid before the House in its entirety? There was a prevalent rumour that an important passage had been omitted; but he could not, of course, tell whether this was well founded. He also wished to know whether the Government would produce the alternative plan of military operations in Berkshire submitted by those officers? Having, of course, been unable to give Notice of the Questions, he would, if the Government preferred it, repeat them to-morrow.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had been unwilling to interrupt his noble Friend, though he had been guilty of a certain amount of irregularity in reviving the discussion of Tuesday night, and putting Questions without Notice. His noble Friend (Lord Northbrook) would, no doubt, have been present had he known that the noble Lord wished for information, and would, if possible, have answered the Questions at once; but in his absence he must request the noble Lord—as he himself had not been in communication with the War Office on the subject and was unable to give any answer—to put the Questions to-morrow.

MILITARY ATTACHE AT ST. PETERSBURG—CAPTAIN THE HON. F. WELLESLEY.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the appointment of Captain the Hon. F. Wellesley

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as military attaché at St. Petersburg had been confirmed? He was induced to do this on account of the propriety of the appointment having been contested in the other House, and of a Question having been there put on the subject at a moment when the forms of the House did not allow a full explanation to be given. He had no personal acquaintance with Captain Wellesley; but he had learnt from a near relative under whom he served in the Coldstream Guards that he was an excellent officer. Military attachés had delicate and difficult duties to discharge, linguistic attainments and great judgment being required, and he had no doubt the noble Earl would satisfy the House that Captain Wellesley possessed those qualifications. He had heard that eight officers had declined the post on the ground of the expense of living at St. Petersburg and for other reasons. He hoped that the discussion raised on this subject was not a sample of what would occur with regard to the working of the principle of selection in the Army.
EARL GRANVILLE: I am glad that the noble Viscount has given me the opportunity of making some remarks on this matter, though I must guard myself against the case being made a precedent, and against my being bound to give explanations to either House whenever a doubt has been raised as to an appointment made on my responsibility. On the resignation of General Claremont, after long and meritorious service, I communicated to the War Office as to a successor, and it was thought highly desirable that these posts should be maintained, especially at a time when nearly every great country is re-organizing its military system. I might have filled up the post without reference to the Commander-in-Chief, for the reports of our military attaché at Vienna, where he was very popular, had been highly satisfactory, and he had the great advantage of an intimacy with some of the highest officers in the French Army. I thought it right, however, to consult the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), and his opinion was decidedly in favour of that gentleman. His appointment was therefore submitted to the Queen and approved. The appointment at Vienna thus becoming vacant, I also addressed myself to the Commander-in-Chief. The illustrious Duke
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took considerable pains, corresponding with me and with other persons, and he eventually recommended Colonel Good-enough, with whom I am not personally acquainted, but who has, I believe, the highest professional reputation. Colonel Blane, military attaché at St. Petersburg, unfortunately died about the same time, and I applied to the illustrious Duke to recommend the officer best fitted for that appointment. The illustrious Duke took great pains in the matter. The officer he first sounded was a gentleman of very high professional reputation and great scientific knowledge; but he had employment which, though of a temporary character, he thought so important that he declined to give it up for the appointment at St. Petersburg. He might have accepted it at a later date; but I thought that, considering all that is going on as to the re-organization of the Russian Army, and all sorts of rumours of a complete armament and other things, it would not be satisfactory to the country if the appointment were left void for some time. The illustrious Duke, after sounding one or two other officers, told me that Captain Wellesley had applied for the post; that he was an officer devoted to his profession; that he was a very clever young man, who had been on the Staff of a noble and gallant Lord commanding the forces in Ireland (Lord Strathnairn), and that he had admirably discharged the duties of adjutant. The illustrious Duke said there was one drawback—that he was young, which was not in His Royal Highness's opinion a disadvantage, but might be the subject of criticism on the part of other persons. After some further consultation we settled that it was better to sound some other officer, and Captain Wellesley was told that his application was positively refused. The illustrious Duke then consulted no less than eight other officers, who, for different reasons, stated that if the offer was made to them they should be unwilling to accept it. The illustrious Duke then told me he had come to the conclusion that there was little choice left but between two officers whom he named. I said I was ready to take his advice, on which he said he would take another day and make further inquiries. He saw Captain Wellesley, and ultimately recommended that gentleman as the fittest person for the

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post, not only on account of his ability, but for other reasons, one of them being that at his father's house he had gained that acquaintance with the habits of European society which was almost indispensable for the discharge of the duties which he would be required to perform. With regard to the naval attaché at Paris, on his resignation of the appointment I consulted the First Lord of the Admiralty, and decided on abolishing the post, appointing in lieu of it a gentleman whom I did not know, but who I was told had the highest qualifications, to be accredited to the various naval countries, to inspect generally all the European Navies, and give information thereon to the Admiralty. I trust this explanation will be satisfactory to your Lordships.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: Though I agree with the noble Viscount and the noble Earl that the present discussion should not be made a precedent as to the application of the principle of selection, which may have to be frequently exercised, I am glad that this Question has been put. I have seen very unsatisfactory remarks made about this appointment, and it has been so little understood by the public, that it was extremely desirable that the subject should be brought before your Lordships, and that so clear a statement should be made by my noble Friend. I have not a word to add to it, for he has stated verbatim et literatim all that passed between us. I do not deny that there might have been some advantage in appointing an officer of rather more standing in the service; but a number of officers declined to accept the post. I am sure your Lordships would rather not hear their names, for it would place them in a false position, and they had, no doubt, good grounds for their refusal; but were their names mentioned it would be clearly seen that every measure had been taken to put the best man into the place. There were, however, great difficulties in the way, and not the least of these was certainly that of the expense of living at St. Petersburg, particularly for a married man, who would find it almost impossible to live on the income derived from the post. It therefore became necessary to find a younger and unmarried man. Captain Wellesley was at first refused the post, as it was thought a man of somewhat higher standing
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should be selected; but we were unsuccessful in this, and I am satisfied that, under these circumstances, no better selection could have been made. I do not think these appointments are quite understood. The fact that these gentlemen are accredited to military nations makes an immense difference. We are not a military nation, and therefore a gentleman's social status is not affected by the same considerations; but in a military nation an officer is received and accepted by the military community in a very different spirit from that which would be felt towards a civilian. A civilian, however competent, has not the same power of getting at military information that a military man has. I sincerely hope, therefore, that military attachés may be retained. It is a great mistake to imagine that they send in no Reports. I can assert that we have many valuable Reports from them. Of course, these Reports cannot be made public, for if they were published they could not be made at all, and we should lose all the advantage we derive from the employment of these officers. I was surprised, therefore, to see it suggested that they ought to be published. I do not know a more intelligent, painstaking, smart young officer than Captain Wellesley. He was for some time aide-de-camp to my noble and gallant Friend (Lord Strathnairn), and he has been for four years adjutant of his battalion in the Guards. He has taken great pains to study his profession, and when the war on the Continent broke out he expressed great anxiety for employment on the Continent, had any more officers been required to accompany the French and German Armies, which, however, was not the case. I am satisfied he will prove himself a useful officer, and having been brought up abroad he knows foreign society, which is an essential ad-advantage. Under these circumstances, I hope your Lordships will be of opinion that my noble Friend (Earl Granville) and myself have not been remiss in selecting Captain Wellesley for this appointment.
LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he could bear testimony to Captain Wellesley's many qualifications. He had served on his (Lord Strathnairn's) Staff as aide-de-camp nearly two years in Ireland during troubled times, and he derived the greatest assistance from Captain

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Wellesley's thorough knowledge of his duty, his clear perception, and untiring zeal and energy. He regarded him, indeed, as a very promising officer. It was always considered desirable that these appointments should be well received at the Courts to which they were addressed; and on this score he believed there was no ground for apprehension. Captain Wellesley bore a name which had been as much honoured in Russia as in his own country; and he (Lord Strathnairn) was happy to avail himself of this opportunity of expressing the deep sense of gratitude, that he believed every officer in the British Army shared with him, for the great distinction bestowed upon our great leader of undying fame in the Russian Army. The Duke of Wellington was made Field Marshal of the Russian Army, and the compliment was the more to be valued because it emanated from a nation whose Army had made great sacrifices for the independence and rights of their country, and because the characteristic of the Russian Army was that their resolution and courage rose, instead of subsiding, with the difficulties and dangers of war.

HOUSE OF COMMONS (WITNESSES) BILL—(No. 198.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
HOUSE OF COMMONS (WITNESSES) BILL—(No. 198.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that as the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had given Notice of a Motion that the Bill be read a second time that day six months, it was necessary that he should describe the authority on which the measure rested. It was not, strictly speaking, a Government Bill; but it had been brought in as the result of the unanimous recommendation of a Committee of the House of Commons, composed of men not likely to recommend anything revolutionary.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the noble and learned Lord was out of Order in referring to an inquiry and Report of which their Lordships had no cognizance.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had no alternative, if the objection was pressed, but to postpone the Bill, and have the Report of the Committee communicated to this House. He was ready to take any blame for the Bill having been delayed; but he had not expected it would be seriously opposed.
  LORD CHELMSFORDmoved the adjournment of the debate, thinking that this was the best course, unless the Order was postponed.
  Moved, "That the further debate be adjourned to Tuesday next."—(The Lord Chelmsford.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYdeprecated the revival of the Bill ten days hence, when the attendance would be very small, and urged its postponement till next Session.
  EARL GRANVILLEsupported the Motion for adjournment. He thought the course proposed by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack was a reasonable one, and he believed that the objections of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) would be removed if he read the Report of the Committee. It would be an act of great discourtesy towards the House of Commons if they rejected a Bill relating to the other House, and introduced on the unanimous recommendation of a Select Committee of the House, composed of Members whose names carried much authority.
  EARL BEAUCHAMProse to Order. The noble Earl had no right to refer to a Committee and a Report of which their Lordships knew nothing.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was surprised at a Ministerial explanation being pronounced out of Order. It was absurd to suppose that he could not refer to the unanimous decision of the Committee. If their Lordships did not wish, to proceed with the Bill, he hoped the adjournment would be as short a one as possible—say for ten days.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDobjected to the Bill being brought on again still later in the Session, and urged its abandonment for this Session.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, it could hardly be argued that any urgency attached to this question, because the Bill had been lying on the Table for two months before it was proposed to be read a second time. If there was any

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  discourtesy to complain of in regard to the other House it had been shown by those who had charge of the Bill.
  EARL GRANVILLEreplied that the actual delay, which had been doubled by the last speaker, rested with two men in both Houses, who were very hard worked. Their Lordships should not therefore make this a reason for rejecting the Bill.
  EARL FORTESCUEexpressed a doubt whether, if the debate were adjourned, any noble Lords who had now spoken could again take part in it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he hoped he should not be precluded from speaking again.
  On Question? their Lordships divided:—Contents 48; Not-Contents 32: Majority 16. Resolved in the Affirmative; and debate adjourned accordingly to Tuesday next.

  IRISH CHURCH ACT.—QUESTIONS.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked Her Majesty's Government—1. When compensation will be given to the private persons deprived of the right of presentation to benefices by the Irish Church Act? In putting this Question he did not mean to cast any slur on the Commissioners appointed under the Act, for he knew that their labours had been very heavy; but still that was no reason why the persons entitled to compensation should not know when it would be paid. 2. When arrangements will be made for allowing the commutation of tithe rentcharges provided for in the same Act? 3. Whether Her Majesty's Government have considered the propriety of any alterations in the terms for the sale of tithe rentcharges laid down in the same Act?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, he thought the noble Lord was perfectly justified in asking these Questions, as nearly two years had elapsed since the passing of the Act. He was sure that no one was more aware than the noble Lord of the arduous character of the duties of the Commissioners, and until a comparatively recent period the whole of their time had been occupied on another part of their business, and they had not been able to direct their attention to fixing the amount of the compensations for the loss of the right to present to benefices. For that purpose
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  very minute actuarian investigations were necessary, and it was only within the last fortnight that the Report of their actuary on the subject had been received. As the Report was now received, there was no need of further delay, and the payments would be made as fast as the official calculations were made in each particular case. With regard to the commutation of tithe rentcharges, he was able to state that any person entitled to commute might apply for a proper form, and as soon as that was filled up the commutation for the tithe rentcharge would be made. He was glad that the noble Lord had taken the opportunity of exculpating the Commissioners from all blame in the matter.

RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT OF THE CAPE.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Despatch from the Secretary for the Colonies to the Governor of the Cape on the subject of Responsible Government; the speech of the Governor to the Colonial Legislature touching upon the same subject; and the minute of the officers of the Executive thereon. The noble Marquess said, he understood that a strong protest was made by the Ministers of the Governor against the proposal, and that it was only carried in the Lower Chamber by a majority of 5, most of whom voted against their election pledges. In the Legislative Council it was also strongly opposed. Therefore, before the noble Earl went further, it would be well to have the Papers and Correspondence laid upon the Table, in order to enlighten Parliament upon the question that interested the colonies very much.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Despatch from the Secretary for the Colonies to the Governor of the Cape on the subject of Responsible Government; the speech of the Governor to the Colonial Legislature touching upon the same subject; and the minute of the officers of the Executive thereon.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, the Papers moved for would not give a sufficiently full and accurate explanation of the proceedings, and if the noble Marquess consented not to press his Motion he would undertake to present Papers on the subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he would withdraw his Motion, and expressed a hope that, in the meantime, the production of the necessary documents would not be anticipated by a Royal Warrant.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.