Lords Sitting of 1 August 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Sunday Observance Prosecutions* (290).
Second Reading—Norwich Voters Disfranchisement* (164); Municipal Corporation Act Amendment* (273).
Committee—Tramways Provisional Orders Confirmation* (263); Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders Suspension* (274); Army Regulation (237–289).
Report—Dean Forest and Hundred of St. Briavels* (250–287); Railway Regulation Amendment* (278–288).

ARMY REGULATION BILL—(Nos. 237–289.)
(The Lord Northbrook.)
ARMY REGULATION BILL—(Nos. 237–289.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Title agreed to.
  Preamble,
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDmoved in page 1, line 3, after ("thereto") insert the following:—
  ("And whereas by Royal Warrant, dated 20th July 1871, all regulations regulating or fixing the prices at which any commissions in Her Majesty's forces may be purchased, sold, or exchanged, or in any way authorising the purchase, or sale, or exchange for money of any such commissions have been cancelled and determined from and after the 1st day of November 1871 in this Act referred as the said appointed day.")
  Amendment agreed to.
  Preamble, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 1 and 2 amended, and agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Compensation to officers holding saleable commissions).
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked, whether exchanges were to be prohibited in future? They had been a great boon, both to the State and to officers, for an officer of small means, to get the Indian allowance, was thus able to change places with another officer whose health debarred him from proceeding to India. It would be easy to prevent any money consideration being given.
  LORD NORTHBROOKreplied, that exchanges would still be allowed, provided no money was paid beyond the expense of the transaction.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDinquired whether there would be any means of discriminating between officers who had voluntarily retired on half-pay and those who had been compulsorily put on half-pay? Could the latter be put in a better position than the former?
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the only way of meeting the case would be to give them an opportunity of returning to active service. They would only be compensated under the Bill for the commissions

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  they held on the 1st of November.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Compensation to officers of certain Indian regiments).
  THE EARL OF KELLIEexpressed a hope that the Secretary of State for India and the Secretary of State for War would put a liberal construction on the clause, and would grant compensation not only to officers now serving when they should retire, but to those who retired in 1861 under the impression that they would receive no further promotion.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, this clause had no reference whatever to the Indian Army. It was, perhaps, natural that the noble Earl (the Earl of Kellie), who had served in India, should introduce the subject of the bonus to Indian officers, between which system and the system of purchase there was some analogy. In the Indian Army, although no man could purchase above the head of another man, it was allowable for the officers to make up a purse to push each other forward to gain promotion; and there had been some question as to how far they ought to be compensated for the money which they had so expended. The system was considered illegal; but when the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was Secretary of State he suggested a principle of compensation which had been strictly adhered to since. He (the Duke of Argyll) had sent out a circular stating that the instructions of his noble Friend should be carried into effect in as liberal a spirit as possible towards the officers.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYremarked that the difficulties of this question were very great, and the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) was quite right in saying that the two systems were not precisely alike, so that it was not possible to argue from one to the other. He did not think, however, that any case had been made out for regarding the instructions of the Secretary of State as otherwise than liberal in their tenour, and he should, therefore, support the noble Duke in giving effect to them. At the same time, he would impress upon the noble Duke the fact that, as Parliament had agreed to give compensation for acts which at one time were denounced by the Government as illegal,
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  Indian officers had been led to attach importance to what they regarded as a grievance in their own case, although it was to a great extent imaginary. It might, therefore, be a wise course for the Secretary of State to take the whole matter into consideration, with the view of alleviating as much as possible the condition of the officers referred to by the noble Earl.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Provision for expense of compensating officers) agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Jurisdiction of lieutenants of counties in respect of auxiliary forces revested in Her Majesty).
  LORD VIVIANproposed the omission of the words intrusting the authority to the Secretary of State. As a Lord Lieutenant, he rejoiced at being relieved of this responsibility; but he objected to the selection of officers being confided to apolitical officer, urging that it should be delegated to the Commander-in-Chief, who was entirely unconnected with either party in the State. He must reiterate the conviction which he stated the other week, that if the Secretary of State obtained the powers conferred by this clause, favouritism would largely prevail. He had individually felt the inconvenience of differing from the Secretary of State, although he did not admit, as the noble Duke had stated, that he had been at "open war" with the Secretary of State.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he did not remember using the expression attributed to him; but if he had done so it was not intended in any offensive sense.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, he thought that in the matter to which he alluded a little favouritism had been shown, and therefore he objected to giving so much power to the Secretary of State.
  Amendment moved, in page 5, line 2, leave out ("Her Secretary of State, or.")—(The Lord Vivian.)
  LORD NORTHBROOKwould not again discuss the question of the Cornish Militia, and would merely remark that a Report made by Sir Charles Staveley, who had inspected the regiment, had convinced the Secretary of State that his decision had been right. He wished to point out to the noble Lord that his Amendment would make no difference in the clause, because the power vested in Her Majesty must necessarily be exercised

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  through the Secretary of State for the War Department. As he had already explained, promotions in the Militia would in future be carried out in the same way as in the Army, through the officer commanding-in-chief, after consultation with the Inspector General of the Reserve forces. That arrangement rested upon an Order in Council passed in 1870, in which the duties of the Commander-in-Chief were defined as clearly as those of the Surveyor General of Ordnance, and the Financial Secretary of the War Department. He trusted, therefore, that his noble Friend would be satisfied that promotions would be made in the manner which he recommended.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHobserved, that no good reason had been assigned for superseding the Lords Lieutenant of counties, and asserted that the Reserve forces would prefer to be placed under a general officer rather than under a Secretary of State.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEunderstood that Lords Lieutenant were still to be consulted on various points connected with the Militia, and did not see how their connection with the force was to be kept up unless some jurisdiction was reserved to them.
  THE EARL OF SHREWSBURYsaid, he would regret to see the power of appointing officers of the Yeomanry and Volunteers taken from the Lords Lieutenant and given to the Secretary of State. It might be necessary to connect the Militia more closely with the Regular Army; but as to the Yeomanry, much depended, on commissions being given by the Lords Lieutenant, who consulted with the gentry of the county, and avoided political bias. He believed that were this change made, the Staffordshire Yeomanry, with which he was connected, would cease to exist.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he trusted that it would not be supposed that there was any desire on the part of the Government to cast a slur on the Lords Lieutenant of counties, or upon the manner in which they had exercised the powers hitherto intrusted to them. No one could be more opposed to such an intention, because in the early period of the Volunteer movement, from the official position he then held, he had opportunities of observing the zeal which they displayed in the discharge of duties
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  which, for a time, were peculiarly and unexpectedly arduous. It was desired by both sides of the House that a closer relation should be established between the Regular and the auxiliary forces, to effect which was the object of the clause. At present general officers commanding districts could not take cognizance of the Reserve forces unless when they were in actual training, and it was desirable that those forces should be under their administration, which was impossible as long as Lords Lieutenant had their present functions. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was correct in thinking that the Government intended still to consult Lords Lieutenant on various matters connected with the Militia, and they would no doubt render useful assistance; but it was necessary to place the appointments and discipline of the auxiliary forces under the control of the Commander-in-Chief, subject to the approval of the Secretary for War, so as to secure, in case of emergency, organization uniform with that of the Regular troops. It would, moreover, be gratifying to officers of the Reserve to receive commissions from the Crown, instead of from the Lords Lieutenant. He objected to the Amendment as probably nugatory, but as maintaining, if effective, a distinction which ought to be removed.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he was glad to learn what the intentions of the Government were at the present moment, but remarked that there was no security for the opinions and acts of future Secretaries of State. The whole question seemed to be whether these powers should be in the hands of a military or political personage. He could not conceal from himself the danger of placing this great power in the hands of a political partisan. Noble Lords on the opposite bench might be the purest-minded men in the world, the most innocent, and the least partisan that could be imagined; all he could say was, that if so, they were too good for this world. All experience showed that political advantages might be obtained by certain appointments, and that habit induced men to appoint persons pleasing to them. That any Minister, especially any Member of the present Government, should make a partisan appointment in the Army, had been denounced at a recent banquet as next to impossible; but he

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  remembered that in the very same building, at the commencement of the Crimean War, a right hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) at the head of the Admiralty openly congratulated the company and the nation on the fact that all our admirals were Reformers. He did not wish to expose the Secretary of State to a temptation to jobbing.
  EARL GRANVILLEremarked that, though it was not impossible for Secretaries of State to be influenced by political motives or favouritism, Lords Lieutenant, being also fallible, might be similarly influenced. He did not, therefore, think there was much in that point. The noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) had quoted what he admitted to be a foolish speech made by an eminent statesman, Sir James Graham. He would, however, remind their Lordships that of the generals appointed by a Liberal Ministry during the Crimean War—Lord Raglan, Lord Lucan, Lord Cardigan, and General Evans—General Evans was the only one who agreed with them in politics. There might be some exceptional cases; but, as a rule, there could not in matters of national importance, such as the selection of officers, be a fairer choice than that made by a political man in an official position, who was much more exposed to criticism than a Lord Lieutenant.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that having objected to the Bill for the insufficiency of its details of organization, he felt that it would be very inconsistent to oppose this clause, which was put forward, as a feature of Army organization. It had, moreover, been stated that these appointments would be made in precisely the same manner as in the Regular Army, and the Militia and other officers could hardly feel otherwise than flattered by being taken out of a somewhat invidious position and placed on a footing equal, as far as possible to officers of the Regular Army. The Amendment would leave the matter in an uncertain position, and he supported the clause on the understanding that the selection would be made by the Commander-in-Chief, subject to the responsibility of the Secretary of State.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he believed the principal objections to the Bill arose from the extraordinary powers that would be conferred on the Executive. The Prerogative
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  of the Crown had been gradually transferred to the Minister of War. As he represented the majority of the other House, the check which was formerly exorcised on the Prerogative of the Crown ceased, and purchase, which was again a great check, was now permanently suspended. Thus the Army was virtually at the disposal of the Minister, and how he might use it in circumstances that might arise in the future none could judge. He believed the change very serious and the danger great. By transferring the appointments to commissions in Militia from Lords Lieutenant of counties to the Secretary of State for War the appointments would virtually be transferred to Members of the House of Commons who supported the Government—for at present it is on their recommendation Government makes all local appointments—thus the Army would become a political body. In Ireland, the supporters of Liberal Members were all Nationalists, and so the officers of Militia would be Nationalists, which the privates were already. Then the Irish regiments—he believed, about one-half the Army — were to be quartered near the Militia for the purposes of amalgamation, and thus, if the intentions for which the Army Bill had been proposed by the Government were carried out, there would be an Irish National Army as hostile to England in feeling as any hostile Army that could attack her. Formerly, in time of war, the Irish Militia was brought to England, when the influence of their officers and discipline made them reliable; now by this Bill they would inevitably create an Irish Army.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMsaid, the effect of the clause would be to transfer the responsibility from the Lords Lieutenant to Her Majesty's Government. He thought that considerable difficulty would be experienced if care was not taken to keep up a local connection between the officers of the Militia and the counties to which the Militia regiments belonged, and, in his opinion, it would be desirable that the appointments should be made on the recommendation of some responsible local officer. He was inclined to think that after the passing of this measure the Reserve forces would be placed on a more satisfactory and efficient footing than was possible now.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEmoved, in page 5, line 19, after ("issued") to insert—
  ("All recommendations for commissions in the militia, yeomanry, and volunteers shall be made through the lords lieutenants of counties, and no officer shall be appointed to the command of a militia regiment or to be a field officer or captain of a militia regiment who is not locally connected with the county to which such militia regiment may belong, except at the special recommendation of the lord lieutenant of the county.")
  The noble Viscount said, that it was most essential to keep up a local interest among the regiments of the Militia, for if that was not done the Militia force could not be maintained.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he conceived that it would be a proper subject for consideration on the part of the Government whether the power of recommending to first commissions should not be vested in the Lords Lieutenant, while the promotion to the higher ranks should remain in the hands of the military authorities, who ought not to be precluded from selecting the best men for the higher commands, though they might not happen to be locally connected.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that the recommendations of the Lords Lieutenant of counties with regard to first commissions would not be neglected by the Secretary of State for War.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Number of auxiliary forces) agreed to.
  Clause 8 (Training for Militia).
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHexpressed his opinion that it would be a great mistake to place the Militia and the Line upon the same footing, and that the Militia should be regarded as a feeder to the Line. He also thought that it was a great mistake to billet the Militia at publichouses, because under such circumstances discipline could not be maintained.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, he thought it would be desirable to supplement the Royal Artillery by increasing the number of batteries in the Volunteer forces.
  LORD EGERTON OF TATTONsaid, that some time ago Circulars were sent out, requiring that proper barracks should be established for the Militia. This force, however, was now to be withdrawn from the Lords Lieutenant, and placed under the control of the Commander-in-Chief. Under these circumstances, he thought it was only fair that the cost of providing barracks for the Militia should be placed upon the Imperial Treasury and not upon the county rate.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that he would not enter into the general question as to what position the Militia should occupy in the Army. By Returns received from the officers of the Militia artillery it appeared that hopes might be entertained that a considerable increase in that important branch of the service—the Militia artillery—could be made. As to the Volunteers, he might say that a good many of the men were too small for their work; but, on the other hand, there were some exceedingly valuable batteries, and as far as it could the force should be increased. The Government were fully aware of the great importance of having barracks, and they had intended to introduce a clause upon the subject; but it would require an enormous expenditure to provide barrack accommodation for the whole Militia force.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Preamble, as amended, agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Bill to he printed, as amended. (No. 289.)

ARMY—CAMPAIGN MANŒUVRES IN THE AUTUMN.

  ADDRESS FOR A RETURN.
  THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDsaid, that having attended manœuvres abroad, he could speak to the great advantage which foreign officers derived from them in learning their profession. He could not admit that officers of the English Army were in any way inferior to those of Prussia, or any other country, but on the contrary, he maintained that our officers were more active and zealous than those in any other service. There was no doubt that they would profit

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  greatly from these reviews, and he was therefore delighted to hear some months back that the Government were in earnest, and were going to hold them on a large scale. He heard, at first, that it was thought of sending the troops to the New Forest; but feeling sure that that would not be a good place for them he put himself in communication with Mr. Menzies, who had lately been surveying that part of the country, who informed him that there would be bad water and many other inconveniences in that locality. That gentleman suggested the Berkshire Downs, and thereupon he (the Marquess of Hertford) communicated with Colonel Loyd Lindsay, a Member for the county, and proprietor of a great part of the land of that district. Colonel Loyd Lindsay immediately asked Sir Hope Grant and all his Staff to come to his place and reconnoitre the ground. He (the Marquess of Hertford) had the pleasure of accompanying Sir Hope Grant, with General Lysons, General Carey, and several other distinguished officers, and together they had reconnoitred 40 miles of ground, making inquiries of the farmers, and looking after the water. The whole of the officers reported most favourably as to the locality. With that public spirit for which the farmers both of Berkshire and of Buckinghamshire were noted—as shown by the permission they gave to hunt Her Majesty's hounds, and indeed all other hounds, over their farms—the farmers received the idea with great favour. Not a word was said about compensation, and he believed the Berkshire farmers would have scouted the notion of compensation merely for the troops coming there. At that time there was not one word said about the harvest, whether it would be late or early, and so far as he knew the distinguished officers who surveyed the locality did not care whether the manœuvres took place before or after the harvest, and for this reason—that there was plenty of room for their purpose upon the Downs, without their going upon arable land at all. There were plenty of roads also leading to the Downs from the valley of the Thames, and there was only one reason against their going there before harvest was over, and that was that the farmers could not of course allow their teams to be hired whilst they were getting their corn in. The officers, as he had said, reported
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  favourably, and he had reason to believe that up to the middle of last week everything went on swimmingly. The troops were told off to march in three divisions to the neighbourhood of Lockinge, and everybody was pleased that the manœuvres were to take place. He believed the Secretary of State was quite in earnest, fully believing that there was plenty of transport for 30,000 men. Among officers and soldiers, indeed, a different opinion prevailed, and the general opinion was that there was not transport for 5,000 men, much less 30,000. Still, one would have thought the Secretary of State would have taken care that plenty of horses were bought or hired for these manœuvres. In his opinion, the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman yesterday was not sufficient to account for the terrible upset of the plans which had been settled, as everybody understood, last March. He could not believe that the lateness of the harvest was the genuine reason for the abandonment of the camp in Berkshire, and suspected that the sole cause was the collapse of the Control department. That department had not yet been tried, but these manœuvres in Berkshire would have been the very best opportunity of trying it, while manœuvres in the neighbourhood of Aldershot would not try it in the least, nor would the officers derive that profit from a campaign which they would receive if they had gone to another part of the country, with which they were not familiar. Another reason for the breakdown was that the military authorities were subordinate to the War Office. He did not make a complaint against any individual or any particular Government, because one Government was as bad as another—except that which appointed General Peel, from whose administration the Army had derived great benefit—but, as long as they had at the War Office a civilian who completely overrides the Commander-in-Chief, so long would mishaps of this kind occur. Their Lordships had been told of the anomalies of the purchase system. Was it not a far greater anomaly that a civilian, however intelligent and clever, should be placed at the head of the War Office, and called upon to re-organize and re-construct a very delicate piece of machinery like the British Army? No other nation thought of such an arrangement.

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  Prussia, which was now held up as the model for imitation, had not done so. Had there been a civilian at the head of the Prussian War Office instead of General Von Boon, would the magnificent strategy of Field Marshal Von Moltke have been carried out? The thing was impossible. He feared that, if at any time during the last 12 months we had been involved in war, the same collapse would have been seen as had just now occurred. If, with four months in which to provide it, we had not been able to furnish the requisite transport even within 35 or 40 miles of head-quarters at Aldershot, how, upon any emergency, could there have been proper carriage for our troops abroad or perhaps even for the defence of our coasts? It required a Battle of Jena to bring about compulsory enlistment in Prussia. It required a Battle of Sadowa before Austria put her house in order. It required the Battle of Sedan and Metz to make the French resort, as he understood they were resorting, to compulsory enlistment. God grant that we might not require a Battle of Dorking to bring us to our senses and make us give up the foolish system of having a civilian at the head of our War Office, instead of trusting to a military Commander-in-Chief. The noble Marquess concluded by asking the Under Secretary for War, Whether there is truth in the report that the manœuvres and camp on the Berkshire Downs during this autumn are to be abandoned? And to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copy of all correspondence relating to these manœuvres between the War Office and other departments:
  "Also for the number of horses now in possession of the Control Department available for purposes of transport:
  "And also for the number of horses bought or hired, distinguishing the respective numbers of horses so bought or hired by that department since 1st April 1871."
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the noble Marquess had travelled rather beyond the question in referring to the re-organization of the Army, to the question of a civilian Secretary of State, and the military systems of other countries. Confining himself strictly to the question, he had to state that it had been decided by the Government that the system of manœuvres which had been so successfully carried out in Prussia should for the first time be tried in England, and
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  provision was accordingly made in the Estimates for the requisite expenditure. It was originally proposed that these manœuvres should be held in Hampshire, no particular locality being fixed, and a Circular was sent round to the commanding officers of our Reserve forces asking what number of men they would be disposed to send to take part in these manœuvres in the second week of September. It was subsequently suggested that the district in Berkshire mentioned by the noble Marquess would be a more convenient spot, and Sir Hope Grant put himself in communication with Colonel Loyd Lindsay and other eminent military authorities, who most enthusiastically and cordially entered into the plan, the landowners and farmers of the neighbourhood expressing their readiness to co-operate with the Government in every way in carrying out the manœuvres. It was proposed that those manœuvres should begin on the 9th of September, and Circulars were issued to the forces to be in readiness to assemble at that time. An accident, however, occurred which was fatal to the scheme, and that accident, which the noble Marquess had attributed — first, to the appointment of a civilian at the War Office; and, secondly, to some mysterious influence connected with the Control department, was simply this — the extremely late harvest of the year. The fact was one which could not be disputed. He had received communications from Viscount Eversley, representing the prospects of the harvest in his neighbourhood, which was close to the scene of the proposed operations, and also from Lord Warwick and the Duke of Beaufort, both of whom had agreed to take part in the operations, pointing out how impossible it was that the farmers who composed their Yeomanry corps should join in the manœuvres owing to the extreme lateness of the season. This fact, and the probability that in September many parts of the country would still be covered with corn, was the main reason for changing the scene of operations, for, notwithstanding the desire of the Berkshire farmers to give every encouragement to the manœuvres, it would have been highly improper on the part of the Government to attempt to carry them out while the crops were standing in the fields. The Secretary of State had never finally decided upon carrying on these

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  manœuvres in Berkshire, and had entered into no engagements involving expenditure previous to the time when he could ascertain with some accuracy at what period the harvest was likely to be. Accordingly he considered the subject last week, having previously called for Reports on the proposed manœuvres from the Quartermaster General and the Inspector General of Fortifications, with suggestions for an alternative scheme if the original plan were not carried out. He had anticipated the Motion of the noble Marquess by placing on the Table the Reports of those officers, together with the Minute of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Surveyor General of Ordnance upon them. Their Lordships would, therefore, be in possession of full information. The Quartermaster General and Inspector General of the Fortifications said that from information obtained on the spot there appeared every probability of an unusually late harvest.
  LORD OVERSTONE: From whom was that information obtained?
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that no names of their informants were given by the two officers, and his noble Friend could hardly expect their Report to include Minutes of Evidence. However, he would read some portions of the Report—
  "We find this country open and suitable for the purpose. It is, however, principally arable land covered at present with grain and root crops, over which it is out of the question to think of moving until the former crops are housed. From information we obtained on the spot, there appears every possibility of the harvest being unusually late, in which case more difficulties are likely to present themselves in occupying this ground than were anticipated when the project of moving troops into Berkshire on or about the 9th of September was first under consideration. We would here observe that, should the autumn be wet, the encampment of troops on these lands would be objectionable, and likely to be inconvenient to the necessary traffic."
  That was the first Report of the Quartermaster General and the Inspector General of Fortifications, and their second Report contained alternative proposals—
  "1. To concentrate the whole force at Aldershot, and send out columns from that place of such strength as the transport available will permit. These columns to march at least two marches out, returning again to Aldershot, when the transport might be transferred to a fresh body, which might in its turn be moved from Aldershot. Such manœuvres of the moveable column against the force, having Aldershot for its base, as may be
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  deemed advisable, should take place. 2. To form Camps of Instruction for, say, 30,000 men—viz., 10,000 men at Woolmer, and 5,000 men at Sandhurst and Chobham (or 10,000 men at either), 5,000 or 10,000 men remaining at Aldershot, as may hereafter be decided."
  Now, in dealing with the subject, the Secretary of State for War and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Surveyor General of Ordnance had entered very fully into the different questions relating to it, not omitting the question of transport. The noble Marquess seemed to be of opinion that those who administered the affairs of the Army in this country ought to keep up in time of peace means of transport sufficient to meet the wants of a force of 30,000 men. Such a system as that, however, would be one of the most extravagant which it was possible to conceive, and if it were required to carry out operations abroad none of that transport would be available. Transport would be obtained on the spot, which was the scene of the operations, and he could conceive no course involving more unnecessary waste than, for the purposes of a short campaign of a fortnight at home, a large permanent addition to our transport service should be made. It was a course which no Government, having any regard for the pockets of the taxpayers, could for a moment seriously think of adopting. The number of transport horses at the service of the War Department was altogether 1,087, about200 of which were in Ireland. He might also observe that the Government expected that in the case of the manœuvres which were to have been carried on in Berkshire they would be able to hire in the neighbourhood a considerable amount of transport. It was the practice of the Prussians to make requisitions for transport in the districts in which their manœuvres were carried on. Indeed, there was no country in Europe in which the peace establishment was kept at so low a point as in Prussia. The lateness of the harvest to which he already alluded, must, however, have greatly interfered with the hiring of transport on the spot in Berkshire, for no farmer would be likely, in the second week of September, to send away horses which he might require for his own purposes at any moment. Any probability of the local hiring of transport had therefore been done away with by the unusual lateness of the season. The supply of transport was, he

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  might add, simply a question of money, and there would be no difficulty, if necessity arose, for securing any amount of it which might be required. At present, however, if a large amount of it were wanted, a considerable price would have to be paid for it. Purchases of horses to a great extent had been made for France, to supply the places of those which had been consumed during the late war, and the cost of transport would, therefore, this year be very much larger than in ordinary times. Well, that being so, there were two plans between which and the original plan the Secretary of State had to decide, and he arrived at the conclusion that the manœuvres should not be held in Berkshire. To postpone the final manœuvres to a later date was impossible, because to have done so would be to exclude the Militia from taking part in them. The Militia regiments were called out on July 21 for 21 days, and on August 21 for 35 day, so that those regiments should be dismissed on September 23. In order, then, to include the Militia, the manœuvres should commence at the latest on September 12. Another objection to the postponement of the manœuvres to the end of September was that, being the period of the equinoctial gales, it was deemed undesirable that the men should be exposed to the probability of having to encounter the stress of bad weather, to the injury of their health. Under those circumstances, the Secretary of State had to decide between two plans—the first being to carry out the system of manœuvres at Aldershot, to which the troops were perfectly accustomed. That was a course which his right hon. Friend did not think would meet the necessities of the case, and it was not, therefore, adopted. The remaining alternative was to take a different district of the country not open to the objection which existed in the case of the arable land in Berkshire—namely, that part of the country which extended from Woolmer Forest and Chobham, and to have on that site the same sort of manœuvres which it was proposed to carry out in Berkshire. The Secretary of State had been in communication with the Members for Berkshire, and with the Lord Lieutenant and others connected with the county, for the purpose of introducing into Parliament a Bill by which compensation would be given for
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  any damage which might be caused by the troops during the manœuvres, and for dealing with strangers who might accompany them, and also cause damage to the land and buildings in the county. His right hon. Friend had since the alteration of the date of those manœuvres been in communication with the Members for Surrey and Hampshire, with Viscount Eversley, and with other residents in the neighbourhood, and the measure which was originally intended to be applied to Berkshire would, with some slight changes, be introduced by the right hon. Gentleman into the other House of Parliament that evening, and would, he hoped, be passed before the expiration of the Session. He would, in the next place observe that he was quite at a loss to understand why so simple a change as that he had just mentioned should have called forth such comments as those of the noble Marquess. The manœuvres were to be carried out; the auxiliary forces would be brought into close communication with the Regular forces, and everything would be gone through just in the way which was originally proposed. The efficiency of the Control department would be tested by the necessity of providing for 30,000 men operating over a large extent of country. As far as he had been able to ascertain, the proposed manœuvres in Berkshire would have been carried on over a space of 20 miles long by less than 10 miles wide. In Hampshire and Surrey there would be a space of 24 miles long by 18 miles wide. There was, however, it was but right to add, a difference of 15 miles between the extremes between which marches might be made in favour of the Berkshire site, the distance between the extremes there being 40 miles, while at Woolmer it was only 25. He trusted that after the full explanation that had been given, their Lordships and the country would feel satisfied that the locality now selected had considerable advantages over Berkshire, not only in respect of strategical movements, but in the fact that the new area was just that part of the country, in case we had to defend ourselves from invasion, that operations would have to take place; whereas Berkshire was not likely to be the scene of active operations should such an event happen. The change of site was supposed, as the noble Marquess had said,

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  to have some connection with an imagined collapse of the Control department. He could only account for that feeling, which apparently existed among the officers of the Army, by thinking that they even still entertained prejudices against the organization of that department, which had been introduced by Sir John Pakington, and carried out with such distinguished ability by his right hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Henry Storks). It was exceedingly difficult to reconcile men who had lived under a particular system to the changes required by the progress of events and the experiences of other countries; but he trusted as time went on that the feeling would diminish and that they would see that unity and simplicity in action were far better with regard to the military and administrative operations of the Army than the complicated system that had prevailed, and still prevailed to a great extent, in the British Army alone of all the great Armies in Europe. It was absurd to imagine that there would have been any difficulty in providing the commissariat supplies requisite for any number of men who were likely to be assembled either at Lockinge or at Chobham. He was not aware that the spot now selected possessed any advantages over the original site, so far as the commissariat was concerned. No difficulty would, he believed, have been found in either case in providing for the wants of the troops. There was no doubt, too, that in time of peace the making of such provision was not so easy as in time of war. In time of war the troops were necessarily the first persons to be considered. They had then the power of occupying buildings, making requisitions, and disregarding the laws of a country. They could move cattle along the roads with which to feed the Army; but at the present time it was hardly safe to move cattle along the roads from fear of the spread of disease. He would only further observe that Sir Henry Storks had been present with him at all the meetings which had been held in reference to the proposed manœuvres, and that he had never heard him make any objection on behalf of his Department, he, on the contrary, having invariably expressed himself, so far as that Department was concerned, ready to do anything which might be
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  decided upon by the Secretary of State as the right thing to do. The Secretary of State's power was limited to the amount of money that had been voted for this purpose, and that had principally been the cause of the difficulty with respect to the provision of sufficient transport for 30,000 men; but by the alternative plan the amount of transport required was limited to 20,000 men, a force sufficiently large for testing the qualification of the troops. Their Lordships were acquainted with the old saying about giving a dog a bad name; but whenever the Control department had been tried it had been perfectly successful. Sir Hope Grant bore testimony to that effect so far as the expeditions of the troops from Aldershot were concerned, and he believed it would be found that in the present instance, also, every satisfaction would be given by the officers of that department. He had only to repeat that in every essential particular, the manœuvres would be carried into effect, and to add that neither a civilian War Minister nor the Control department was responsible for a change of site, which was due solely to the lateness of the harvest.
  LORD OVERSTONEexpressed his great anxiety that nothing should be left undone to secure the country against danger. It was therefore with the greatest regret, and a strong feeling of humiliation, he had heard, that the great work which had been promised so long, and for which such preparation had been made, was to be abandoned. He considered that abandonment to be an acknowledgment that the great re-organization of the Army of this country had wholly collapsed. Such had been the impression made on him, in common with every civilian and military man with whom he had conversed. What had they been told in the early part of the Session? Why, that such a reorganization of their Army would be effected as would render danger, or even the apprehension of danger, from a foreign foe puerile. But one of the great means for bringing about that result was to be found in those strategical instructions which they had been informed were to be given on a grand scale in the Berkshire encampment. On what ground, then, were they to be abandoned? They were told that there

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  was to be a march out—they did not know to what distance — from Aldershot.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the noble Lord had confounded the alternative scheme which the Secretary of State for War had rejected with the one he had accepted.
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he was only induced to address their Lordships on behalf of the landowners and occupying tenants in Berkshire, who had been discourteously treated, and not to enter into a discussion of military facts or theories. The noble Lord had spoken of the Reports of the Inspector General of Fortifications and the Quartermaster General. But the landowners and farmers of Berkshire looked upon these Reports on the state of their crops, to say the least, as a great anomaly. When the operations were first contemplated, the matter was taken up with zeal by the farmers and landowners of the district, who determined to co-operate in every way with Colonel Loyd Lindsay and himself, as the possessors of the largest amount of property in the neighbourhood. They immediately summoned a meeting which was attended by all the proprietors of the district and by the farmers of no fewer than 36 parishes. A committee was elected, upon which were farmers, every one of them occupying more than 1,000 acres. At the head of the committee was a highly respectable person, owning a large extent of property which he farmed himself, a man of the highest intelligence, and enjoying the confidence of the farmers all round. The committee sat periodically, and first of all they passed a resolution which was read last night in the House of Commons, declaring their earnest co-operation in carrying out the plans of the Government. Subsequent resolutions were passed and continual communications kept up with the War Office by the committee. The Secretary of State read in the House of Commons with triumphant satisfaction one of the resolutions which the committee had passed, and stated his intention of taking advantage of their offers. That state of things continued to the very last moment. It was only on Saturday morning, when at Lockinge, that he received the first intimation from a quarter which made him think there was some truth in it, that the operations were to be abandoned,
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  on the ground of the state of the harvest. He immediately rode 10 miles to call on the chairman of the committee, and asked whether any inquiry had been made of him, whether individually or as chairman of the great committee, by any officer from Aldershot or the War Office as to the state of the weather and the crops in the district. The chairman assured him that he had neither heard from anybody nor seen anybody on the subject, and that he was taken entirely by surprise. On the following morning came a short note from the Secretary of State to say that the contemplated movement was abandoned. He immediately sent over to a highly intelligent member of the committee, a land agent who managed 40,000 acres of the district, and who was in communication with all the farmers, to know whether he had received any inquiry or communication from the War Office as to the state of the harvest and the peculiar condition of the season, and he also replied that he had not. He wanted to know why had Quartermasters General and Inspectors of Fortifications kept studiously away from all those who could have given them the best information? Why had they had no communication with himself or Colonel Loyd Lindsay, with the chairman of the committee, or the farmers generally? At the bottom of all this there must be some secret which the authorities did not like to disclose. There was no necessity whatever for abandoning the contemplated manœuvres. He believed they could be carried out to-day without the least obstacle. Only yesterday morning he drove over the roads which the men would have to pass with two gentlemen of military experience, and he asked whether there would be any difficulty in marching troops from the Thames valley over those roads until they came to the open plains of Berkshire, where they could deploy, and he was told there would be none whatever. While every preparation was being made, and the farmers were working thoroughly and earnestly, some officers from Aldershot visited various families in Berkshire and spread what were believed at the time to be idle and mischievous rumours. They said—"You may deceive yourselves if you like about this great encampment; but it will never be made, because the authorities have not the materials necessary for moving

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  the troops." These officers did not found their prophecies on the state of the season or the lateness of the harvest; but said distinctly—"We tell you the state of the Commissariat and Transport is such that they cannot move the troops to any distance from Aldershot." There was a strong feeling pervading the public mind that though we had a number of troops, more or less, an Army in the true and only real meaning of the term did not exist in this country. He was not a military man; but he felt it to be his duty, on behalf of the interests of the landowners and farmers of Berkshire, to protest against this strange proceeding on the part of the War Department.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, their Lordships would not be at all surprised that his noble Friend who had just sat down should have expressed the annoyance and disappointment he and those connected with him felt on finding that the manœuvres in which they had shown so great an interest, and the success of which they had taken to much trouble to promote by exercising the influence they possessed over their neighbours in Berkshire, should now be abandoned. That was certainly a very great disappointment. As to the absence of personal communication on the subject, he was not himself aware of the facts; but he had no doubt that Mr. Cardwell would be able to give the necessary explanations. He must remark, however, that the whole of the noble Lord's speech was entirely in contradiction of everything which had been stated by his noble Friend the Under Secretary for War. His noble Friend had stated, in the clearest manner and with great detail, that the manœuvres were not at all abandoned, but were to be held in a place better fitted for them than the Berkshire Downs; and when the noble Lord talked so strongly about there being secrets in the matter, he was bound to move for a Select Committee of their Lordships' House, which might summon Mr. Cardwell and every other official before it, and inquire in the fullest manner into all circumstances of the case.
  LORD VIVIANsaid, he was informed that the reason for the abandonment of the manœuvres was that the Secretary of State had endeavoured to make arrengements with Messrs. Pickford for a large number of horses, and had failed.
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  But this matter had been in contemplation for four months, and therefore the War Department were to blame for not having made provision before the last moment. The War Department were now attempting to re-organize the Army; but, in his opinion, they had better first re-organize themselves.
  THE MARQUESS OF EXETERalso thought that the War Office was much to blame in the matter. By fixing manœuvres as early as September they practically excluded the attendance of the regiments belonging to the Midland counties. Four months ago he received a letter from the War Department asking whether his regiment would be ready if called upon to turn out—the recruits at the end of August and the regiment itself in the beginning of September. But the men looked to the harvest as furnishing the principal wages of the year, and how in such a case could they be expected to turn out? He believed that the real reason for the change of mind with respect to the Berkshire encampment was that the Control department was not able to supply the horses and means of transport necessary. It was true the Government could not be expected to keep transport horses for 30,000 men in time of peace. But if war was to come upon us suddenly, not at four months, but perhaps at a fortnight's notice, was it possible that the Control department would not be able to find the necessary means of transport for the Army?
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEremarked that he had not met a single commanding officer who was now employed who did not say that the Control department was the greatest failure. Every officer in Aldershot, or in the kingdom, would say the same. They complained that they could get neither their rations nor their clothing in proper time. It appeared to him that the changing of the ground on which the manœuvres were to take place arose solely from an absolute want of transport in the Control department. It was idle for the Government to say that they could not provide transport for 30,000 men. If the Government intended that 30,000 men should take part in these manœuvres they ought long ago to have provided transport.
  LORD NORTHBROOKwas understood to say that to do so would have caused considerable expenditure.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLE: Then we were so poor that we could not find money to meet the expense! He thought it was a disgrace to the Government to put forth such an excuse as that, after leading their own country and the world to believe that these manœuvres would take place on the scale originally proposed.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNadmitted that to provide a transport available for war purposes would involve enormous expense; but, at the same time, he could not help thinking that the Control department ought to have done more than they had done after the long notice they had given and the expectations they had raised respecting the manœuvres on Berkshire Downs. He wished to know what preparations were being made by the Secretary of State for War for the supply of transport?
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that if the noble and gallant Lord would put a Question on the Paper with respect to transport, he should be very happy to obtain information on that subject from the Surveyor General, and give that information to their Lordships. The reason why Government had made a change with respect to the camp was that, not being gifted with the power of prophecy four months ago, they did not then know that the harvest would be exceptionally late. Many stories as to deficiency in the number of artillery horses had obtained currency; but all those he investigated were found, to have no foundation in fact. The allegation that the troops had wanted their rations should be followed up by the noble Lord who made it (Viscount Melville), and if he would give sufficient details to enable an inquiry to be made the Department would be only too glad to know what the defect was in order to apply a remedy. He informed the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn) the other night that no regulations had been issued with respect to the plan on which these campaigns would be conducted. A translation had been made by Sir Charles Staveley, and published by Mr. Mitchell, of Charing Cross, of the regulations of the Prussian Army in 1861. Some subsequent regulations had been made in Prussia, and the War Department was preparing a translation of them for the purpose of being communicated to the troops. It would be useless in a
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  time of peace to have a great establishment of horses. On an emergency a sufficient supply of horses could be obtained in a week. If the noble Lord behind him (Lord Overstone) continued to assert that there was any secret on the subject, he hoped that the noble Lord would move for a Committee of Inquiry, and examine the Secretary of State and the Surveyor General of Ordnance before that tribunal. He had heard the noble Lord use expressions which had made a painful impression on his mind. The noble Lord asserted that he (Lord Northbrook) was not accurate in his statements. Unless the noble Lord was prepared to retract that declaration—
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he imputed the utterance of no untruth to the noble Lord; but he maintained the accuracy of his own assertions.
  LORD NORTHBROOKwould, then, challenge the noble Lord to have the case inquired into by a Committee. With respect to the Motion of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hertford), he had already stated that there had been laid on the Table of the House the Reports of the officers connected with these manœuvres. There was no correspondence other than those Reports. He had no objection to give a Return of the number of horses bought or hired, and he hoped the noble Marquess would confine his Motion to that Return.
  THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDconsented to the proposed modification of his Motion.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.
  Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for. Return of the number of horses bought or hired, distinguishing the respective numbers of horses bought or hired by the Control Department since 1st April 1871.—(The Marquess of Hertford.)
  House adjourned at half past Eight o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.