THE EARL OF CAENAEVONI hope the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies, in accordance with a private intimation that I have given him, will allow me to put a Question to him on the very serious news which has lately arrived from Canada. Judging from the telegrams which have been received, the circumstances are most grave. I trust the noble Earl will not think it ungenerous if I venture to remind him that when, two months ago, I brought before your Lordships the question of our Colonial policy—
§ EARL GRANVILLEI shall be glad to answer any Question as to facts; but the noble Earl has not given any Notice, and I think, therefore, he is rather out of order in prefacing it by a speech.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONI have not the slightest inclination to make a speech; but it is the practice of the House that noble Lords should be permitted to offer to the House any observations that may be really necessary to enable them to explain their Question. I was about to remind the noble Earl of the remarks I made some time ago as to the possibility of a Fenian outrage, and my words have been only too well justified, for we learn that within the last two or three days considerable bodies of Fenians have crossed the frontiers, and that an engagement, though one in which happily little blood has been spilt, has taken place. As far as I can judge from the reports that have been received the invaders have been eminently unsuccessful, and the Canadians have gallantly repulsed them. What I wish to ask is this serious Question, Whether, in the present state of affairs, the noble Earl is prepared to carry out the orders which he announced had been given for the recall of the regiments remaining in Canada? Those regiments are very few indeed. I believe there are not more 1463 than three regiments stationed in Canada, their total force hardly amounting to 2,000 men. Over and above this we know that the insurrection in the Red River Colony has involved the sending of a military expedition—an expedition very difficult and very dangerous—which has withdrawn from Canada a farther regiment of some 400 or 500 men. Then, again, while on the Canadian side there are great difficulties owing to the exposure of a long line of frontier, and the comparative absence of railroads, on the United States' side there are many railroads, enabling the Fenians to bring up their force in almost any strength and to throw it on almost any point of the Canadian territory. In the face of all this it seems to me—hazardous and dangerous as it was originally—still more hazardous and dangerous to recall the troops. I may express what I believe is the feeling of everybody in this House—a feeling of the utmost sympathy with the Canadians in these unprovoked attacks upon them, and of admiration of their gallantry and courage in defending themselves. But we should bear in mind that this quarrel, if ever there was one, is a quarrel Imperial in its nature. It is not a local, it is not a Colonial quarrel, for it is the connection with England which has brought this upon the Canadians. If, therefore, at this moment the miserably scanty force which remains in Canada is to be farther curtailed or withdrawn, we shall place ourselves in a position which I should be sorry for this country to occupy. A great responsibility rests on the noble Earl—
§ LORD LYVEDENI rise to Order. The noble Earl is not simply asking a question of urgency, but is entering on a discussion on a question of policy, and I submit that he is not in order in doing so without having given Notice. It is wasting time to enter upon a matter which cannot, under such circumstances, be properly entertained.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONI am not, I submit, wasting your Lordships' time. The matter is one of urgency, and I am simply following the practice which has been observed by almost every noble Lord who now sits on the Treasury Bench over and over again in my recollection. ["No, no!] But I have now said all I desire to say, and I 1464 am, therefore quite content to put my Question, Whether the noble Earl is prepared to suspend, at all events, for the present, the recall of the troops which still remain in Canada?
§ EARL GRANVILLEI feel it right, in the first place, to protest against the statement of the noble Earl, that it is the constant practice of noble Lords on this side of the House so totally to disregard the recommendations of the Select Committee as I humbly submit the noble Earl has done this evening. Your Lordships will remember that the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond), the Leader of the Opposition, interrupted me the other day when I was absolutely confining myself to a simple statement of facts, in consequence of news having arrived on which a question had been put to me by my noble Friend behind me (Lord Lyveden). The noble Earl opposite began by boasting of his superior power of prophecy over mine; I deny that his prophecy has been verified—but I will not go into that. He then went off to other topics, and warned me of the great responsibility resting upon me. Now, I expected, and I believe it would have been simply in accordance with the wish of your Lordships, that he would ask me what news had arrived from Canada, and would also put the simple question, whether there was any intention of making any change with regard to the disposal of the Imperial troops. I think the public are aware of the general nature of the facts. There seems no doubt that the attack from St. Albans has signally failed; but whether it is the principal attack or not it is impossible to say. Although the Rifle Brigade, of which a member of the Royal Family is an officer, were moved up in that direction, the repulse was effected by the Canadian Militia in the most admirable and gallant manner. Lives of Fenians have been lost; and I own—I hope it is not un-Christian to say so—that I cannot regret lives being lost, even of those miserable dupes who have been led into the most wanton, senseless, and indefensible outrage which it is possible to imagine. With regard to the attack on Huntingdon, the accounts up to this moment are rather contradictory. It is difficult to imagine what object there could be in making that attack. The only object which these brigands—I cannot call them any- 1465 thing else—could have in view would be some plundering of farmhouses and the possible destruction of Government property. With regard to the reported movement of another portion of the Fenians from Buffalo, no news has reached us, and it is almost impossible that Sir John Young should not have been informed of it if any such movement had been made. I trust, therefore, that the report will turn out to be unfounded. I am happy to say that the American Government have not only issued a proclamation, but have also advanced troops towards the frontier, and have put in prison, on a charge of violating the Neutrality Laws, the so-called General O'Neill. I do not wish to prophecy, but I think it is probable that there will be an utter collapse of this unfortunate movement. I am bound to remark on the admirable way in which the Canadian Militia has immediately rushed to the scene of action—which is the more remarkable considering the false alarms which have lately been circulated. Only three weeks ago there was a false alarm, which involved a great expense in bringing out a very large number of Militia from their homes. With regard to the particular Question put by the noble Earl—the withdrawal of the troops from Canada—there is no change whatever in the policy of Her Majesty's Government; but I yesterday morning requested the War Office and the Admiralty to issue orders suspending any direction for the recall of troops during the continuance of this Fenian raid.
§ LORD CAIRNSThe information which has been elicited by my noble Friend's Question is so valuable that I am surprised the noble Earl, before my noble Friend had uttered a single sentence, should have interposed.
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy interruption was on account of the noble Earl's proceeding to make a speech, in which he pointed out that a prophecy made by him some three months ago had been fulfilled.
§ LORD CAIRNSThe noble Earl has forgotten exactly what occurred. His interruption was at the beginning of the Question, and before my noble Friend had expressed any opinion. The noble! Earl has recalled to our recollection—and not for the first time—the Order adopted on the recommendation of the Select Committee. Now, we ought to 1466 I be extremely careful lest, under the pretence of that very doubtful and vaguely expressed Order, we abandon our liberties and privileges in cases of urgency, and as to which information is desirable, and abstain from asking for it. In this case it was impossible that my noble Friend should have given any Notice in compliance with that Order, for the House has not sat since Tuesday evening, and the information which the noble Earl has been able to give has arrived since. It was only natural that my noble Friend should have made some remarks in order to impress on the Government the course he is anxious they should take, and from which his Question derived the chief part of its value. My noble Friend has done good service by the course he has taken.
EARL GREYI think it is very desirable that the recommendation of the Select Committee should be adhered to. Under the old system great inconvenience arose from remarks being made for which the greater part of the House were not prepared; and it constantly happened that discussions arose on these matters immediately before a quarter past 5, and went to great length, interfering with the regular business. It was felt on all sides that this was a great abuse, and after full deliberation the Committee unanimously adopted the Resolution referred to. That Resolution expressly reserves Questions for information which are of urgent importance. To put such Questions is perfectly fair and proper; but it is entirely departing from the proper rule of the House, and is most inconvenient with regard to the orderly conduct of our proceedings, for Questions to be prefaced by observations calculated to provoke a reply and lead to a discussion for which the greater part of the House is not prepared. I am sure the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) will, on reflection, admit that the observations with which he prefaced his Question were calculated to lead to a reply, and to tempt other noble Lords to go at some length into the subject. With regard to Colonial policy, I am prepared to go much further than the noble Earl; but a discussion on questions of Colonial policy should not be raised without due notice.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDI must say I was surprised when the noble Lord (Lord Lyveden) rose to Order, for he 1467 himself on a former occasion put himself, as I thought, out of Order by asking a Question. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) on that occasion thought I was complaining of his answer, whereas I thought it was the noble Lord's Question which was out of order. I do not wish to prolong this discussion; but I will take the opportunity of putting another Question, which, I hope, will lead to no discussion—namely, when the noble Earl proposes to recommend that we should adjourn for the Whitsuntide Recess?
§ LORD LYVEDENremarked that, on the occasion referred to by the noble Duke, he put his question without a single word of preface—which he contended was strictly in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI cannot speak as to the ancient practice of the House; but during the time I have been a Member of it this recommendation has been the cause of more wrangling than anything else, and if the interpretation of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) is to be put upon it, the sooner it is wiped out from our records the better. I believe the Committee was appointed with the somewhat futile object of bringing our proceedings more into conformity with those of the House of Commons. Now, if we are not able at any moment, in cases of urgency, to bring up any subject we think fit, we are in a position very inferior to that of the other House, where, by moving the adjournment, a Member may bring forward any matter deemed urgent. I, for one, do not intend to observe the rule laid down by the noble Earl.
§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYHaving, I am sorry to say, been a Member of the House longer than many on this Bench, and longer than almost anyone on the Bench opposite, I have not for the last 30 years observed any of the inconveniences stated by the noble Earl (Earl Grey). I think the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville), who has as much tact and knowledge of the world as any man I know, will agree with me that this is entirely a question of discretion. The House could not expect that my noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) should curtly ask whether the troops in Canada would be withdrawn. Questions frequently cannot be put properly and courteously without some preliminary remarks.
§ EARL STANHOPEregretted that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had expressed a strong opinion against the recommendation of the Committee.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYexplained that he had simply said it was the cause of many wrangles.
§ EARL STANHOPEsaid, that occasions had arisen when great embarrassment had been caused by putting Questions without notice. He remembered an important Question on the Alabama claims being brought forward without the slightest notice; and the Committee, in view of cases of this kind, recommended that Questions should not be put without notice, except in cases of urgency. The recommendation of the Committee excluded Questions of urgency, and he did not think the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) had at all exceeded the proper limits on this occasion.
THE MARQESS OF CLANRICARDEmoved that the debate be adjourned. Quite enough had been said, and it was time to proceed with the Orders of the Day.