SECOND READING. (Hansard, 24 May 1870)

§ LORD REDESDALE
, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that this measure had been some time before their Lordships, and that, being simple, reasonable, and just, he could see no possible objection to it. Under the Act of last Session the Irish Church continued an Establishment until the 1st of January next, and it was provided that the proceeds of any preferment which might in the interim become vacant should be left in the hands of the Commissioners, and that those proceeds should be paid up to that date to any person who might be appointed to such benefice. No provision, however, was made for the case of a vacancy which might not be filled up, and the proceeds of such a preferment would, therefore, remain in the hands of the Commissioners, and swell the General Fund. Now, the provision securing payment of the income to any person appointed before disestablishment was a manifest admission that the income during that period belonged to the Church; and it was only just that if a benefice was kept open it should be paid to the Church Body, constituted for the purpose of taking charge of the temporalities of the Church. To correct this no doubt unintentional oversight was the object of his Bill, and the correction to be of any good must be made this year. It did not disturb the principle of the Act; and the Church Convention, while declining to recommend the proceeding with other suggested amendments of the Act, deeming it expedient to moot the subject of a general Amending Bill, had resolved that it would be for the benefit of the Church if this measure were carried.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
hoped the noble Lord would not press his Motion. It was somewhat difficult, even in answering the noble Lord to avoid saying things which, in all probability, would provoke the expression of a different opinion from other quarters. It was most un- 1269 desirable, unless urgent necessity existed, to enter on the delicate questions connected with, the Irish Church. Considering how infinitesimal the advantage to the Church would be from this proposal, he was sure their Lordships would not think it desirable to send it down to the House of Commons with the chance of exciting all kinds of angry feeling. The patrons had power to fill up vacancies if they thought proper, and in a matter of a very few hundred pounds it was unadvisable to re-open the question. If some great flaw or serious hardship had existed the Government would have fairly considered it.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD
said, the speech of the noble Earl reminded him of the virtuous indignation of the man who cut off his eldest son with 1s. and desired that his name should never be mentioned to him again. He would rather the noble Lord had introduced a Bill for the entire repeal of the Act which unfortunately passed last year; but he was willing to support this measure, such as it was, having been a member of the Convention which approved it.

§ LORD REDESDALE
said, he was not disposed to withdraw the Bill, for he thought it was important to show who were prepared to deal fairly with the Irish Church and who were not. No doubt it was a small matter; but with regard to the endowments of the Church very small matters were of great importance. Where any living fell vacant before 1871 the gain from commutation was lost, and therefore the only way of commencing an endowment was that the income should go to the Church.

§ LORD CAIRNS
said, he would be glad to support anything which would add to the resources of a Church which would not be very largely endowed; but he could not quite understand what the practical evil was which called for this Bill. He was not aware that any vacancy had occurred which had not been filled up—so that the matter was one affecting less than eight months. A bishopric had become vacant and had been filled up; and if a person were appointed to any vacant preferment he would be paid by the Commissioners. He agreed with the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) that unless some crying evil could be shown, it was undesirable to re-open the question in order to pro- 1270 vide for a contingency which, after all, might not occur. The arrangement, moreover, was not that Parliament set aside these particular benefices and left them untouched till the 1st of January; but that as soon as any vacancy arose the income merged into the general fund, the Commissioners being directed to provide adequate payment for any person appointed to fill it up to that date. The intention evidently was that vacancies should be filled up. He hoped his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) would not call on the House to divide on such a question, for votes might be greatly misunderstood, and those unable to support the Bill might be unfairly represented as hostile to the Church.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
remarked that the provision as to paying incumbents up to the 1st of January was inserted with a view to respecting vested interests, even down to the last moment. Compensation was fully intended; but there was a strong feeling among many supporters of the Bill against anything in the shape of future endowment. In endeavouring to convert compensation into endowment the noble Lord would be departing from the principle of the Act.

§ LORD REDESDALE
insisted that he was not disturbing the principle of the Act. It would, of course, be useless for him to divide if he had not the support of noble Lords behind him; but he regretted the reception the Bill had met with.