Lords Sitting of 16 May 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Education (100); Churchwardens Liability*
Committee—Report—
Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Supplemental (No. 2)* (82).

EDUCATION BILL—(No. 100.)
(The Lord Stratheden.)
EDUCATION BILL—(No. 100.)

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  LORD CAMPBELL, who had placed la Notice on the Paper "to call attention to the subject of appropriating a portion of the rates in boroughs for the support of existing schools, and to move a Bill upon it," said, that the Bill he now sought to introduce was identical with that which he had presented at the close of last Session. He was induced to persevere because he was actuated by a long-acquired conviction that the power of compulsory attendance, which had succeeded in Germany and Switzerland, might be adopted in this country. This, however, was the first measure in which that principle had been effectually embodied; for though he was at first under the impression that the Government Bill secured the object he had in view, he afterwards discovered that this was not the case. The Bill was, in great measure, based on that of 1853, introduced by the noble Earl (Earl Russell) who was just restored to their Lordships' House; for, like the latter, it drew a distinction between the urban and rural population, attempted to utilize the power of Town Councils, contemplated the imposition of a rate, respected existing interests, and recognized the jurisdiction of the Privy Council. The only important difference was, that the present Bill made the imposition of a rate obligatory, and that it gave to Town Councils the power of compulsion, which was generally desired. Under his scheme Town Councils would create school Boards, and 2d. in the pound added to the assessment of the borough rate would form a fund available for the support of all inspected schools, as well as of ragged and night schools. Where compulsion was required free orders would be given, parents being allowed to choose which school they would send

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  their children to. It might be objected that the Bill passed over the rural population; but educational destitution existed to a larger extent in the great towns than in the country, and he might assume that the Government Bill would make sufficient provision for the agricultural districts. Schools of the existing class were mostly adapted for the reception of children of all denominations; and all might be so adapted, while they would be multiplied to any required extent. Thus, the creation of a new type of schools, which was the source of all the controversy and discord which existed, and which would soon become the rivals of the existing schools, would be avoided. The principle of compulsion, moreover, being new and untried, would not have a fair chance unless it enlisted the sympathy and cooperation of the Anglican and Nonconformist clergy, which would not be obtained if the population were driven into schools which the clergy regarded with jealousy and coldness, if not with horror and aversion. If the Government Bill should come up to their Lordships and should be found defective, the clauses of this measure might suggest how it should be amended; and if the vicissitudes of Public Business should prevent its reaching this House, their Lordships would be able, by modifying the present measure, to meet the deficiency which chiefly called for legislation.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Lord had adopted a perfectly legitimate mode of explaining his view of what he thought would be the most expedient measure with regard to education by laying a Bill upon the Table. He thought, however, it would be the feeling of the House that it would not be desirable to prosecute the Bill beyond the present stage. In the first place, an important measure on the subject was in progress through the other House, and he hoped it would be fortunate enough to reach this House during the present Session. It would be more convenient to discuss the general question of education when that measure came before their Lordships, for he understood the noble Lord to admit that it partly fulfilled the object he had in view. There was another objection to which the present Bill—though, of course, he had not yet seen it—might be open; for although it would be perfectly competent for their
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  Lordships to pass it, some difficulty on the score of privilege might arise if it were sent down to the other House.
  A Bill to enable Town Councils and Local Boards to promote Education in England and Wales, presented; read 1a, (No. 100.)

THE RITUAL COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, At what time the Ritual Commission would make their Reports? In connection with this subject he desired to read an extract from a letter which had appeared in The Globe, written by the Hon. and Rev. E. V. Bligh—
  "The Ritual Commission has been sitting three years! The questions referred to it admitted of being answered within three months. Tillotson's Commission, in 1689, sat for six weeks, meeting 18 times; and, with the aid of six sub-committees, revised the Prayer-book, from the Calendar of Proper Lessons down to the Commination Service. Their recommendations are deficient neither in extent nor in wisdom, covering the whole ground of the Church of England formularies, and dealing with most, if not all, of the disputed or doubtful passages."
  He (the Earl of Shaftesbury) would remind their Lordships that, in 1867, he brought forward a Bill for the regulation of the Vestments used in the Services of the Church. It was met by an Amendment on the part of the then Archbishop of Canterbury, supported by Lord Derby, then Prime Minister, that the debate be adjourned for two months, and that in the meanwhile a Commission should be appointed to inquire into all these matters; and hopes were held out that the Committee would report at the end of two months, in time to proceed with legislation if necessary that Session. It was added, moreover, that Vestments should first be inquired into and first reported on. Up to the present time, however, there had only been a Report on the Lectionary, although Vestments stood first in order in the terms of the Commission. He would not give an opinion on this delay until he knew all the circumstances; but he wished to know when the Commission would make its final Report?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had made inquiry of a right rev. Prelate who was a member of the Commission, but who was not at that moment in the

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  House, and had learnt from him that the Report would be ready in a short time.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid, he should he glad to explain exactly how the matter stood. The Commissioners would meet to-morrow, and also on Thursday and Friday, for the purpose of going consecutively through, he trusted, the small remaining part of the business intrusted to them. That business had, it was true, occupied them a long time, but he did not think that time had been in any way wasted; and there had, as he could testify, been no want of care and labour in inquiring into the matters which Her Majesty submitted to them. They had already made two Reports, though the noble Earl, he understood, had mentioned but one. The noble Earl had referred to the Commission which sat under Archbishop Tillotson, contrasting the rapidity with which it reported with the tardiness of the present Commission; but he (the Bishop of Winchester) would beg their Lordships to observe what the result of that rapidity was. The Report was never accepted—nothing came of it. This was the consequence of that rapidity which the present Commissioners had avoided—although some persons, perhaps, would have liked to have seen them show more hastiness. Considering that the questions to be inquired into touched the deepest feelings of many parties in the Church, great rapidity of decision, however wise it might have seemed, and whatever its advice might have been, would have been, he thought, unwisdom. It was essentially necessary that those out-of-doors, as well as those engaged on the Commission, should proceed with great deliberation in these matters. Indeed, he believed that the publications which had issued from the Commission from time to time—the large publication of evidence supplementing their first Report, and the like—had been of great use in allowing persons to form an opinion on these subjects, and thus to assist the Commissioners in giving their answer to Her Majesty with some hope of a really good result. As a constant attendant on the Commission he could positively state that there was no desire to lose time; but the difficulties of the question had been very great, and the matter needed to be thoroughly exhausted if the result was to be satisfac-
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  tory. He trusted that now within a very short time their final Report would be issued. The Commissioners had already given an important Report on the Lectionary of the Prayer Book, which, he believed, owing to the time devoted to it and the time necessary to consult those outside as to what they were prepared to recommend, had met with a most unusual degree of acceptance in the Church. That had been finished, and it now rested with Parliament to adopt it or not. The remaining subjects would, he hoped, very soon be disposed of; and he trusted that their Report would bear the marks of care, of prudence, of the absence of hastiness, of a resolution to maintain important principles, and of a readiness in things indifferent to consult men's feelings as far as possible.

  CHURCH WARDENS LIABILITY BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the relief of Churchwardens from liability for payments formerly made out of the Church Rate—Was presented by The Marquess of SALISBURY; read 1a (No. 101.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.