Lords Sitting of 21 March 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (£9,564,191 6s. 2d.)*.

CONDUCT OF BUSINESS—PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL. OBSERVATIONS.
LORD REDESDALErose to call the attention of the House to an error in the Parochial Schools (Scotland) Bill, returned to that House from the Commons on the 9th of August last, as affording proof of the just objection entertained by this House to proceed with the consideration of the Commons' Amendments at so late a period of the Session. He desired to remind their Lordships of the interest he had always taken, and the exertions he had often made, to secure proper time for the consideration, by their Lordships, of the various measures sent up to them from the other House; and it was in consequence of the opposition he had made to the departure from that principle, that their Lordships had come to the determination of not proceeding with the consideration of the Amendments made by the other House in the Parochial Schools (Scotland) Bill last Session—that measure having been sent up to their Lordships after the Appropriation Act had been read a third time, and when they were within two days of the prorogation of Parliament. He had now had his attention called to a matter in that Bill, which showed the importance of attending strictly to this arrangement. The Parochial Schools (Scotland) Bill was sent down to the House of Commons at a comparatively early period of the Session, with a clause

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which provided retiring allowances to schoolmasters after a certain period of service, and it had also what was called a "red letter" provision, enabling the school committee to make an assessment to meet the demands for those retiring allowances. The provision proposed by their Lordships was that the school committee, in the case of a new national school, might grant a retiring allowance to the schoolmaster, not to be less than one-half of his salary. When the Bill went down to the other House it was read in due course a first and second time; it was then committed pro formâ, when, amongst other Amendments, the House of Commons inserted one to the effect of the provision which their Lordships had sent down to them in red letter, with the addition of these words—"If such teacher have served for more than ten years shall, and in any other case may grant," &c. The effect of the provision so amended was to give to the schoolmaster who had served ten years a compulsory retiring allowance, unless he had been dismissed for improper conduct. Well, those words passed through commitment andre-commitment—in fact, remained in the clause up to the very last stage. On the third reading the Bill was further amended in the House of Commons, but that clause was not touched; the Amendments then made in the Bill affected Clauses 15, 16, 21, 23, 28, and 65. In that state it was sent up to their Lordships' House at nearly the close of the Session for reconsideration. When the Bill was reprinted in their Lordships' House it was found that this particular clause was omitted. His attention was specially called to the omission affecting so materially the interests of the schoolmasters by those gentlemen themselves—it appearing that, as the Bill stood, no retiring allowances could be granted them. He submitted the matter to their Lordships' consideration. The fact was, that the mistake arose from the haste in which the Bill was prepared to be returned to their Lordships on the same day that it had been read a third time and extensively amended. The words making the allowance in certain cases obligatory wore accidentally struck out, and the Amendment restoring the "red letter" provision inserted. Now, as the omitted words were not in the Bill as sent down from this House, their Lordships, had the
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mistake been discovered, could not have inserted them, and the only means of rectifying it would have been for the Commons to request that the Bill might be returned to them in order that they might put it in the shape which they desired. The mistake, however, could not have been discovered till their Lordships' print had appeared, and had been compared with the Commons' print; and as the former was only issued on the day when the Bill would have been considered, the probability was that the measure would have been passed minus the provision to which the schoolmasters would have been entitled, and which they would have supposed had been secured to them. This case showed the danger of hurried legislation, and he hoped the matter would be considered by the Commons as well as by their Lordships; for it was but fair that each House should have sufficient time to deal with Bills which came to it from the other, and the desire of both must be to secure perfect legislation. He was not sure that Governments were not at times too anxious to pass too many important measures to allow of their being properly considered; and this Session the time of the other House might be so occupied by some of the Bills now before them that they would not be sent up to their Lordships, or Bills originating here sent back as amended, in proper time. He hoped, however, that with this example before them their Lordships would be resolved to maintain their undoubted right to be allowed proper time for the consideration of the measures submitted to them.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLremarked that there was a homely but very expressive proverb which affirmed that it was no use crying over spilt milk, and he was certainly not disposed to cry over the spilt milk of the Scotch Education Bill last Session, or over the dispute in which he was worsted by the noble Lord. He never for a moment disputed that the Bill came back to this House under peculiar circumstances, and that if their Lordships thought themselves unable to give the Amendments proper consideration they were fully justified in refusing to deal with them. All that he suggested at the time was that, the Bill having originated here, and many of the Amendments not being hostile to the views of their Lordships, it would

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not, if they were anxious to pass the measure, be inconsistent with their duty to consider them even at so late a period of the Session. He perfectly recognized the right of the noble Lord to watch the proceedings of their Lordships' House with special attention, in order that they might not be open to real or formal objection; but he must say that the case he had now brought forward was not a very strong one. The clause in question was reprinted in the precise form in which it left this House, and the mistake would not have been a very serious one, though, no doubt, the schoolmasters were anxious to secure retiring allowances, and obtained the moving of an Amendment in the other House. [Lord REDESDALE remarked that the Amendment was carried.] It did not come back to this House as carried. With regard to the measure itself, he was happy to find a considerable agreement of opinion had been expressed; and he hoped that after the English Education Bill had received the sanction of both Houses, a Bill not unlike that which passed this House last year might be again brought forward.
LORD KINNAIRDasked whether it was not possible to frame the Bill on the subject of education in England in such terms as to make it applicable to England and Scotland? A few separate clauses might be required; but in the country districts the existing means of education were admittedly ample, though in the towns the parochial system was not sufficient.
THE EARL OF MINTOentirely dissented from the suggestion of his noble Friend. As regarded the subject mooted by the noble Lord the Chairman of Committee, though he was unwilling to say anything which might appear unfriendly towards Ministers whom he was in the habit of supporting, he quite agreed with the manner in which the Bill was sent back, on the assumption that it would be passed without the opportunity of considering its details, was quite unreasonable.

ADMIRALTY.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHmoved for—
  Copy of Correspondence between the Admiralty and the Treasury and of other Papers relative to alterations in the organization and business of the Admiralty and to reductions in the establishments:
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  Copies of Orders in Council of the 22d day of February 1870 respecting Naval Promotion and Retirement:
  Copy of the Report of the Civil Commission appointed to inquire into the condition and organization of the Naval Hospitals, with extracts from the appendices thereto:
  Copy of a Report by the Earl of Camperdown on the arrangements of Her Majesty's Victualling Yard, with the Reports thereon of the officers to whom it was referred:
  He presumed that as these Papers had been already laid before the House of Commons, no objection could be made to their production. He must say he thought Governments had of late years been rather reticent in giving information to their Lordships on Admiralty matters; but several Papers on military questions had been presented to them by command this Session, and he hoped the noble Earl who represented the Navy in this House would communicate to them whatever Papers of interest were presented or moved for in the other House.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNreadily assented to this Motion on the part of the Government. He could assure the noble Duke that there was no desire on the part of the First Lord of the Admiralty to withhold from their Lordships any Papers relating to matters of importance, which must, of course, be of the greatest importance to their Lordships; and, in future, he would take care that whatever important Papers were laid before the other House should also be laid before their Lordships.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked that there might be added to the Papers a copy of the Patent whereby the Board of Admiralty is constituted. Formerly, it was a board the members of which co-operated together; but it was no longer such. It still claimed to be a Board; but it seemed that the First Lord only communicated with the other, members at his pleasure, and, he presumed, in his own room; and, therefore, there was a total change in the character of the head of the service. It was now, in fact, a government of the First Lord, and not of the Board of Admiralty. Further, he should wish for some information as to the First Lord of the Admiralty, being a civilian, proceeding to sea with a fleet; because he thought that such an act was offensive to naval commanders, and dangerous to the safety of the fleet.
  THE EARL CAMPERDOWNsaid, the Government had no objection to produce a copy of the original Patent constituting the Board of Admiralty. The Returns moved for would show that the recent changes had received the sanction of an Order in Council—of which he could not now give the precise date—and he presumed that changes allowed by Orders in Council were not inconsistent with the original Patent. The noble Earl was mistaken in thinking that the Board of Admiralty never met, though he did not pretend to say that its sittings were frequent, or that the greater part of the business of importance was transacted at the Board as formerly, for its constitution had entirely changed. The First Lord gave an explanation last, Session of the new organization adopted by his advice under an Order in Council. With regard to his taking the fleet to sea, the noble Earl must make a distinct Motion if he sought to remove from the First Lord a power which, whether it was customary to exercise it or not, undoubtedly attached to his Office.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that if the alterations in the constitution of the Admiralty which his noble and gallant Friend had mentioned had been effected, they would be a great improvement. He had never known any Department in which business was so unsatisfactorily conducted as it used to be at the Admiralty. He had known a Board, that of Indian Control, which, as a Board, never sat at all; although in the time of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas it did so, and was really what it purported to be.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEwould not say whether the alteration was an advantageous one or not; but it had been stated in "another place" that, in accordance with the existing practice, parts of the scheme had not been discussed by the Board as a Board.
  Motion amended, and agreed to.

  POLICE SYSTEM OF SCOTLAND. QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF MINTOasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is their intention to carry out in any, and, if so, in what particulars, the recommendations made in the year 1868 by the Select Committee of this House on
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  the County and Burgh Police Systems of Scotland, with a view to increasing the efficiency of the Scottish Constabulary? To a similar Question last year he received a reply that some of the recommendations were under consideration, and he hoped now to elicit a still more satisfactory and definite answer.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he regretted that he must give merely the same answer that he gave last year. He must not be thought to undervalue the labours of the Committee if he said that some of their recommendations were not of an urgent or important character, while many were drawn in somewhat qualified, terms. Several of them, however, it was proposed to carry out as soon as possible. With regard to the most important of them—that of superannuation—the whole question was under consideration, and it was obviously desirable that the same principle should, if practicable, be applied both to England and Scotland. As to a Police Gazette, the Government thought it reasonable that such a paper should be established in Scotland, as was already the case in England and Ireland. Many of the other recommendations were in a fair way of being carried out, without the intervention of the Government.

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND.)

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEmoved, according to Notice, for Return, of the counties or districts proclaimed by the Lord Lieutenant since the 1st of November, 1868, and for Copies of, or extracts from, Correspondence between the Irish Government and lieutenants, deputy-lieutenants, or magistrates of counties relative to Crime and Outrage in 1868 and 1869. In making this Motion he had to complain that the Members of the Government had hardly kept faith with him with regard to their promise on his withdrawing his former Motion, of communicating as far as possible all the Papers or information he had asked for; for nothing on the subject had yet been laid on the Table. A Bill had been brought into the other House for the repression of crime in Ireland, which would probably soon come up to their Lordships. Now, it was most desirable, before that measure came before them, that they should have every possible in-

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  formation as to the state of Ireland—not merely as to the repression of crime, but that they should have a complete statement of the policy of the Government in that country. Ireland was in a condition which led him to entertain graver apprehensions than at any time within his memory; and what he especially lamented was the total absence of any influence on the part of the Government, or of any other body which ought to possess any influence. Indeed, the reasons that had been given by the Members of the Government for introducing this Bill for the repression of crime in Ireland conveyed a very imperfect notion of the calamitous condition of the country. The Bill which had been introduced would, he was inclined to think, be found an efficient measure; but he demurred to the statement which was made on its introduction—that Ireland had often been in a worse condition, and that there was, therefore, no occasion for despondency or serious apprehension. The Bill was partly composed of provisions of the Acts of 1833 and 1847, and other measures; but, on looking back to those periods, the difficulties which the Government had then to contend with must be considered, and it was the duty of the Ministry to show how, without experiencing any analogous difficulties, they had allowed the country to get into its present condition. In 1833, the lawlessness and disturbances which prevailed were largely connected with the collection of tithes from the occupiers, which many Irishmen thought a justification for insubordination to the law; and, in 1847, famine was ruining both landlords and tenants, producing a feeling of despondency; but, when the Government rose in its might, it put down in less than a year the spirit of disorder. The Poor Law was not then in operation, and the population exceeded 8,000,000; whereas now we had a diminished population, and greater elements of prosperity, so that there was no excuse for allowing the country to have fallen into its present condition. There was now a feeling in Ireland which endangered the security of the Union more than at any time within his recollection. He recollected Mr. O'Connell, and his power over the minds of the people; but, at that time, the preponderating influence of property and, to a great degree, of intelligence was
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  on the side of loyalty and the Union. At present, however, the Government had not such a hold on the property, minds, and affections of the people in favour of Union as in those days. This was not wholly the fault of the present Ministry; but there had, of late years, been an alienation from the Government of persons of property and influence; and this, to his mind, had been most mischievous to the tranquillity and good condition of the country; and he saw nothing in the so-called remedial measures, or policy of the Government, at all calculated to diminish the evil. Hence it was he had moved for any correspondence that might have passed between the Irish Government and the county magistrates and gentry; for such correspondence had diminished till it had reached a minimum, and no longer existed. He did not believe the Government now consulted anyone out of Dublin. He had asked several lieutenants of counties, and they had told him that, except partaking of the hospitality of the Lord Lieutenant, there was no communication between them and the Government. Now, it was a serious thing for the Government of a free country to dissociate itself from men of property, who ought to have considerable influence over it. What the Government called their "remedial measures" had had no remedial effect. He supported the Church Bill last year, seeing no alternative between it and religious inequality; but, however just it might have been in principle, it had brought no support to the Crown or the Government. So far from it, it had produced a tone of dissatisfaction among a numerous and powerful body of persons in the North, of Ireland, which had not subsided, and which led them to talk about the Union in a way which had never been indulged in before. On the other hand, the reticence of the Government on the land question all last year led to hopes being entertained by the people, which were absurdly exaggerated by factious persons, and now there was consequently disappointment and discontent, and he saw no indications of the Land Bill they had now introduced having elicited any support or satisfaction. The Roman Catholic priesthood were, of course, gratified at what they deemed the destruction of the Protestant Church; but could it be said that the Govern-

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  ment were in alliance with them. Were they in alliance, either, with the speakers at so-called tenant-right meetings, where topics of a very different kind were introduced? Was it not persistently affirmed by a large party that the British Parliament were insensible to the wants and feelings of the people? He was extremely sorry that at this moment the Roman Catholic clergy had not more influence. They wore plainly told by the persons who perpetrated and sympathized with these crimes that they were not listened to or respected as formerly. Being suspected of an alliance with the Government, their influence was lowered—indeed, he could not recollect a time when the influence of the rural Roman Catholic priesthood was so low as at present. Of course, in a numerous body, some exceptions might be found on whose conduct blame might be cast; but could it be doubted that as a body the priesthood would help to put down crime and outrage if they dared, and if they enjoyed the respect and veneration formerly attached to them? He hoped, by the way, that there would be a definition of "outrage," when their Lordships came to discuss the Bill. In 1866, there had been a great deal of talk about the unfortunate state of affairs in Ireland, and especially as regarded security of tenure. But, did they really suppose that the Irish people, whom the Government regarded as in some respects so ignorant as not to be able to make their own contracts, were not intelligent enough to see how their interests had been treated as the subjects of party conflicts on one side or the other. Did they think they did not know how to appreciate the position of parties in this country? These matters were perfectly well known in Ireland; and if the Government did not at once take up things with a strong hand, and re-establish social order, the consequences, if not immediate, would yet be of the gravest character. He did not, indeed, apprehend that any one would successfully bring forward in the Imperial Parliament any Motion for the repeal of the Union, nor did he fear the repetition of so absurd an attempt at rebellion as the Fenian disturbances; but he had little doubt that immediate measures were necessary for tranquillizing the country; and the Government ought to give Parliament and the country a satis-
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  factory assurance on the subject. Up to 1866 there was a minimum of crime in Ireland—and why?—partly, as he believed, because Fenianism, having greater influence than the Government in keeping the people quiet, at that time discouraged disturbances and outrages; but in 1866 the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended; and the suspension not being renewed by the Government which came into Office in the summer of that year, the result was that crime rapidly increased, and the suspension had to be renewed; but in 1867, 1868, and 1869, things became worse, and outrages were now, according to the statement of the Government, more prevalent than at any time in the present year. This condition of things demanded the communication of the fullest information—even more than that embraced in his Motion—before their Lordships were called on to consider the Bill which would shortly come before them.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House,
  Return of the counties or other districts of Ireland which have been proclaimed by the Lord Lieutenant from 1st November 1808 up to the present date:
  Copies of or extracts from any Correspondence that may have taken place between the Irish Government and lieutenants, deputy lieutenants, or magistrates of counties relative to Crime and Outrage in the years 1808 and 1809.—(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)
  LORD DUFFERINsaid, the Government had no objection to furnishing the principal items of information included in the Returns asked for by the noble Marquess. Indeed, they had been prepared in the discharge of their duty, irrespective of any Motion on the subject, to lay on the table such information and Returns as it was desirable the House should be in possession of. He must, however, protest against the implied accusation of breach of faith. When the noble Marquess first placed his Motion on the Paper, he communicated, with the Irish Office as to how far it was convenient or desirable that it should be complied with, and lie then informed the noble Marquess that a portion of the Returns would be produced, but that there was an objection to that part of his Motion which related to private and confidential correspondence which might have passed between the Government and Lords Lieutenant and magistrates. The noble Marquess there-

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  upon informed him that he would not press his Motion, and he therefore concluded that it was indifferent to him whether the Returns were supplied or not. The Government, however, for the reason he had stated, had been hurrying on the preparation of such Returns as it was consistent with public convenience to produce. He would not follow the noble Marquess through his discursive observations as to the past condition of Ireland, and the various matters connected with the administration of the country; but he was inclined respectfully to question his allegation that, consequent on the legislation of last year, a disloyal and discontented spirit has sprung up in the North, which had evinced itself in disloyal and discontented language. Here and there a few persons might occasionally have indulged in strong and imprudent expressions, but he believed such a spirit was entirely absent from the North of Ireland; and, indeed, he had been much struck by the self-respect and dignity with which they had accepted the conclusions arrived at by Parliament last Session.
  On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

NATIONAL GALLERY.

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGE, in moving for Copies of Correspondence between the Office of Works and the Architect of the new National Gallery respecting the designs for the new building, said, that about a year ago he called attention to the great delay in the erection of the new building; since which time, he believed, nothing had been done beyond the appointment of Mr. Barry as architect, and the preparation by him of plans and designs. There was a rumour that the design sent in by Mr. Barry was not to be acted upon—in fact, that the present First Commissioner of Works had abandoned the idea of erecting a new Gallery, and proposed to make alterations in the present building to adapt it to what might be required. He hoped this was not correct, and that it was not the carrying out of a policy at which the First Commissioner hinted in his speech to his constituents; for it would be most unfortunate if, instead of erecting a building worthy of the nation, we were to patch and tinker the present
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  building, merely in order to save a little money. He hoped, at all events, that the recommendation of the House of Commons' Committee last year, that in future the plans and specifications of all public buildings in the metropolis should be lodged at the Office of Works, would be acted on, and that an adaptation scheme would not be decided on before Parliament had an opportunity of expressing an opinion on it. For an immense number of pictures room could not now be found, and many other bequests might be expected. He, therefore, protested against patching the present Gallery.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House, Copies of Correspondence between the Office of Works and the Architect of the new National Gallery respecting the designs for the new building.—(The Viscount Hardinge.)
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had made inquiries of the First Commissioner of Works in relation to the Motion of the noble Viscount, and had ascertained that the correspondence to which it referred was not yet concluded. It would be most inconvenient to produce an imperfect correspondence, and therefore he could not accede to the Motion. He could assure his noble Friend that no great scheme for patching up the National Gallery had been adopted. The works now in progress were simply some alterations in the arrangements of the hall, and other matters of trifling importance.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that before we undertook any new buildings it would be well to complete those that were in course of erection. He had often called the attention of the House to the condition of the ground which had been purchased for the erection of the new Government offices in Parliament Street. The delay which had taken place in erecting the new offices was perfectly discreditable; and the site instead of being an ornament to the metropolis was simply a disgrace. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a large surplus, as was said, in no way could some of the money be better applied than in providing adequate accommodation for our public offices, which were now scattered, at very great expense, over a number of private houses, rented for the purpose, at the West-end of the town. If the contemplated new buildings were erected, valuable property

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  now occupied for the purpose of public business would be rendered available for letting, at rents which, would return no inconsiderable aggregate addition to the revenue. He trusted that before long some action would be taken by the Government in the matter.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the subject of the completion of the new buildings had been for a long time and was still receiving the careful consideration of the Government.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONtrusted that the Government would give the House some assurance that as soon as the correspondence to which the noble Viscount's Motion referred was completed it would be laid upon the table.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, it was not the usual course for the Government to pledge themselves to produce a correspondence a portion of which was not yet in existence; but he should think that as soon as it was concluded there would be no objection to its production.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, 'till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.