Lords Sitting of 30 June 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Medical Officers Superannuation * (169); Liverpool Admiralty District Registrar* (170); Cattle Disease (Ireland)* (171).
Second Reading—Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans)* (131).
Committee—Wine and Beerhouse Act (1869) Amendment* (109–172); Medical Act (1858) Amendment (93–173); Ecclesiastical Dilapidations (No. 2)* (114–174).
Third Reading—Attorneys and Solicitors Remuneration (86); Churchwardens Liability* (101), and passed.

ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS REMUNERATION BILL—(No. 86.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS REMUNERATION BILL—(No. 86.)

  THIRD READING. BILL PASSED.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that in consequence of an imperfect marginal note the last four lines of Clause 19 had until now escaped his notice. They provided that—
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  "In all cases an appeal should lie to the proper appellate tribunal on any question of and relating to costs in the same manner as an appeal lies respecting any other matter or question."
  He thought it very objectionable that there should be an appeal upon such a matter.
  LORD CHELMSFORDagreed in this opinion.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that he was quite willing that the lines should be struck out.
  Amendment made accordingly.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that the principal reason for the introduction of this Bill, of which he approved so far as it went, was the unsatisfactory mode in which solicitors were remunerated for conveyancing business. They charged, not according to the amount of labour and care bestowed, but according to the length of the deeds. The consequence was that there was no inducement to employ skill in making a neat and concise deed; and, on the contrary, there was every temptation to adhere to old forms and to introduce a number of covenants that were quite unnecessary. That class of business being generally transacted by leading members of the profession, they might fairly be entrusted with the power of entering into agreements as to the amount of their remuneration; but there was no reason why the power to make agreements should extend to business done in reference to actions at law and suits in equity. There never had been any objection to the mode of paying attorneys in matters of litigation, and the great object hitherto had been to protect the clients against improper charges. With this object a scale of fees had been fixed by the Judges, a staff of taxing officers were appointed, and the expenses of taxation, in the event of one-sixth of the total sum being taken off, was thrown on the attorney. There was no objection to this system, and though he was sure the alteration proposed would not be unfairly taken advantage of by attorneys engaged in great commercial cases, there were attorneys of a very different stamp who would be glad to withdraw their charges from the scrutinizing eye of the Courts by making a private agreement with their clients. Knowing what the probable costs would be under the present system, they would take care to stipulate

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  for something in excess, and to this the ignorant client would easily assent. It was true the Bill provided that such agreements could not be enforced by action except by petition to the Court, which would cancel them if unreasonable; but the client would not be aware of this protection, and would not know whether the agreements were reasonable. Moreover, an attorney, if the action had succeeded, might recover the whole amount of the expenses from the opposite side, and yet exact from his client the sum agreed on. With the purpose of remedying this, he proposed an Amendment at the end of Clause 1, to the effect that no agreement for business done in a Court of Law or Equity should be binding, unless it were submitted to a taxing master, and that the Court should have power to cancel such agreement.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he acceded to the Amendment with some reluctance, as it proceeded on a principle which noble Lords had recently denounced—that of protecting people against the results of their ignorance in making contracts. His noble and learned Friend seemed to have as bad an opinion of English attorneys as the Government had of Irish landlords. His belief was, that in the long run the best way of making people cautious about what contracts they entered into, was to make them liable to the results, if they were not.
  Amendment made accordingly.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

MEDICAL ACT (1858) AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord President.)
MEDICAL ACT (1858) AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 93.) COMMITTEE ON RE-COMMITMENT.
  House in Committee (on Re-commitment) (according to Order).
  Clause 2 (Definitions).
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that this Bill, if carried into law in its present form, would be very prejudicial to the interests of the Universities of Scotland, and as he had the honour to be the Chancellor of one of them—the University of Aberdeen—he felt bound to place some Amendments on the Paper. The effect of the Bill would be most disastrous in a pecuniary sense to the Universities of Scotland. The University of Aberdeen was regulated by
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  an Act passed in 1860. The regulations had been carried out in every respect, and all the details of the education given by the University were in accordance with them. Since 1860 the University of Aberdeen had granted a very great number of medical degrees. The recipients had shown themselves in every way deserving the honour, and he had no hesitation in saying that the standard of the education given at that University was as high as the education given at any other University in the kingdom. When, therefore, he found that an educational establishment like this was about to be seriously damaged by their legislation, he thought it his duty to put some Amendments on the Paper which would render the measure as little injurious as possible. Since, however, he had found, that the operation of the Amendments would be much wider than he intended, and he did not intend to press those parts of his Motion. He should confine himself to that which defines the subjects in which the candidates were to examined.
  Amendment moved at the end of Clause 2, insert the following:—
  "The term 'fundamental medical sciences' means and includes chemistry, botany, natural history, general pharmacy, anatomy, and physiology."—(The Duke of Richmond.)
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONwas glad that the noble Duke, with his usual candour and fairness, had forborne to press his Amendments, which would render the Bill quite worthless. There was no objection to the present Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 3 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 13 (The granting of licences).
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONproposed an Amendment making it the duty of the General Medical Council to grant the licences. This, it had been represented to him, would be more likely to insure uniformity of standard than if the licences were granted by each of the three examining Boards to be constituted in the three kingdoms.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 14 to 16, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 17 (Erasure by General Medical Council, and correction of register.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that this clause enabled the Medical Council to inquire into any allegation against a medical practitioner of infamous or disgraceful conduct in any professional respect, and on proof of such charge to erase his name from the medical register—thus depriving him of his livelihood. Now, charges against military or naval officers were inquired into in open Court, but this inquiry might be secret; and though in the case of lawyers there were analogous powers, lawyers were better fitted to exercise them than persons who had not had a legal education. He would suggest an appeal to the Privy Council or some other authority.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, that the clause went very little further than the existing law, the advance consisting in the addition of the term "disgraceful." This had been done on account of a strong representation by the General Medical Council of their inability to deal with several highly discreditable cases, in which it would have been most desirable to erase the names of the offenders from the register. This punishment, moreover, would not prevent their still practising medicine; for all that the Bill did was to forbid non-registered persons from assuming titles calculated to mislead the public as to their real position.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 18 (Grant of qualifications by medical authorities limited).
  LORD CAIRNSadmitted the propriety of prohibiting the various bodies now conferring medical degrees from conferring the title of licentiate, which would be granted by the Medical Examining Board under this Act. He thought, however, that those Universities which now required, or might hereafter require, graduation in Arts as a preliminary qualification for graduation in Medicine or Surgery, should be allowed to grant other medical degrees not only to persons who had already passed the Examining Board, but to persons who had not yet become licentiates; though, of course, in the latter case, such degrees would not obviate the necessity of obtaining the degree of licentiate. Non-educating bodies might fitly be precluded
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  from conferring other medical degrees, except on persons who were already licentiates; but without this concession to educating bodies, such as Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, students would be withdrawn from the Universities before the completion of their curriculum, and the position of the profession would be seriously lowered. The noble and learned Lord proposed an Amendment in this sense.
  Amendment moved, line 32, after ("authorities") insert—
  ("Except such Universities as require graduation in arts as a preliminary qualification for graduation in medicine or surgery;")
  and in same line leave out ("to any person any of the titles of licentiate") and insert—
  ("Except to persons registered or qualified to be registered in accordance with the provisions contained in this Act, any of the qualifications").—(The Lord Cairns.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he should object to the Amendment of his noble and learned Friend unless it were extended to graduation in Science as well as in Arts. At Aberdeen, where the curriculum of Arts occupied four years, graduation in Arts was not required as a qualification to graduation in Medicine, though there was a strict preliminary examination. There would be legal and other difficulties in deviating from this system.
  THE EARL OF POWISalso objected to the Amendment as injurious to Cambridge, which, like the University of London, did not make graduation in Arts a condition of medical degrees.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYthought the noble Earl who last addressed the House rather misunderstood the object of the Amendment, which was to encourage as much as possible the members of a profession so exclusively technical as that of medicine to a wide and enlarged course of study. It was of the greatest importance that the members of that profession should be men of wide and enlightened minds, and therefore he thought the Amendment worth considering.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONexplained that a clause almost identical with the terms of the Amendment had stood in the Bill as originally framed; but that it had been withdrawn at the instance of the Universities themselves.

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  He thoroughly agreed in the opinion that it was important to encourage the studying of the Arts and of general knowledge by men intended for the medical profession. In order to promote as much as possible a liberal education, he had inserted in Clause 10 the words "general knowledge," and had provided in a subsequent clause for the registration of titles in Arts. But he thought the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord would draw an invidious distinction between Oxford and Dublin and the other Universities, and would inflict hardship upon the London and Scotch Universities. He, therefore, should be obliged to resist it.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, that the Amendment would not operate as a prohibition upon either of the Universities, and he thought that the question ought to be discussed upon broader grounds than the mere petty jealousies of the different Universities. It was for Parliament to disregard such narrow views, and to say whether or not it was desirable to require that the men who joined the medical profession should have received the highest class of education. The opinions of the Colleges of Physicians and of Surgeons were entirely in accordance with the Amendment he had proposed. He was most anxious to take the sense of the House upon the question.
  THE BISHOP OF CARLISLEobserved that a practice similar to the proposal contained in the Amendment had been in use at Cambridge University, but in consequence of its not working well it had been given up.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses and Schedules agreed to.
  On Question, That the Chairman be directed to report the Bill with the Amendments to the House,
  THE EARL OF LICHFIELDsaid, a Petition had been presented to their Lordships from the British Medical Association, praying that a clause might be inserted in the Bill providing for the direct representation of the profession in the General Medical Council; and they said that the measure would not be acceptable to the profession generally unless some such provision were inserted in it. There could be no doubt that the
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  Petition accurately represented the views of the medical profession, seeing that it emanated from a body comprising 4,000 of its members, and that similar Petitions had been presented by several of the Colleges; while, as he believed, a memorial had also been addressed to the Lord President of the Council, setting forth the opinions of 10,000 members of the profession on that point. He was quite aware that the subject had been brought under their Lordships' notice at too late a period for anything to be done then with reference to it; but he thought it would be right that an opportunity should be given for the consideration of the matter, and with that view he proposed to move, on the bringing up of the Report, the insertion of the clause suggested in the Petition to which he had alluded.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 173.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, 'till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.