§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD DENMANsaid, he rose to propose the Amendment of which he had given Notice, that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. He had done so on what he thought the very reasonable ground that, inasmuch as they were about to abolish all the ancient Courts of the land, it was only proper that they should wait until the Bill by which the general rules of procedure were to be declared, and by which the new judicature was to be governed, had been assented to by Parliament. Moreover it would be useless to bring this Bill through their Lordships' House, for the legal Members of the House of Commons were just about to leave in order to go on circuit. If this was not done the Courts and their regulations might be abolished, and no distinct course provided for. He quoted from a work by the late John George Phillimore on the Roman Law, which found fault with every branch of the administration of justice. He (Lord Denman) did not entirely agree with him; but he thought it a serious matter to alter every well-known precedent for the sake of adopting the system possibly of that which the same late learned author called the unreformable Court of Chancery.
§ Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and insert ("this day three months.")—(The Lord Denman.)
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would not now repeat what he had said on former occasions—especially as a very important subject was about to come on. He could assure the noble Lord that no disrespect was intended by the Bill to the Common Law Courts, or to the eminent Judges who presided in them, and he had at previous stages adopted various Amendments that had been suggested by noble and learned Lords.
§ On Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion? Resolved in the Affirmative; Bill read 3a accordingly.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to omit Clause 7 (Salaries of 318 Judges of High Court). The clause, while it continued to the existing Judges the same salaries as they at present enjoyed, proposed a new scale for the future, by which the salaries of the future Chief Justice of the Common Pleas and the Chief Baron of the Exchequer were reduced to £6,000 per annum, and those of the Lords Justices to £5,000 per annum. This proposed reduction in the salaries of the Judges had no connection with the fusion of Law and Equity, and he hoped it would not be persevered in. Nor was it altogether consistent with the understanding that these minor details should be left until the questions of principle had been decided, and it was known how the change would work. The position of our Judges had always been a subject of great jealousy with our statesmen: and if it should appear that any reduction in their salaries was required, it was a question which should originate with the House of Commons. The independence of our Judicial Bench had always been a subject of great national pride, and it was in some degree attributed to the liberality with which the distinguished men raised to it were remunerated. At a time when expenses of all kinds were increasing, when wealth was increasing, and when the earnings of distinguished barristers were constantly rising, it was a serious step to reduce the salaries of those to whom we looked for the protection of the fortunes and lives of Her Majesty's subjects.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the reduction, as he explained on a former occasion, would only operate in two cases. The Master of the Rolls not only exercised judicial duties in the Court of Chancery, but had other important functions, which the noble and learned Lord (Lord Romilly) had so effectually discharged by the publication of the public records; but, though superior in rank to the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas and the Chief Baron of the Exchequer, his salary was £6,000, while theirs was £7,000. It was considered desirable, when transferring him to the appellate jurisdiction, to correct this anomaly. The salary of the Lord Chief Justice of England would not be interfered with. The unwillingness of the late Lord Kingsdown to accept the office of Vice Chancellor, which was attributed by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Romilly) to the inadequacy of the 319 salary, he believed was owing to the possession of a considerable fortune, which induced him to give his valuable services to the Judicial Committee in preference to the Court of Chancery, where his duties would have been more unpleasant, there being the necessity of constantly attending chambers.
§ LORD CAIRNSsaid, he would not repeat the objections he had already urged against the clause; but having been informed by competent authorities that it would be struck out as soon as it left the House, as a matter touching the privileges of the Commons, he objected to its being now retained for the mere purpose of intimating to the Commons the arrangement which they would be prepared to sanction. He hoped his noble and learned Friend would consent to do at once what would otherwise be done two minutes hence by a power beyond his control.
§ LORD WESTBURYurged the desirability of giving larger salaries to the Chiefs of the different Courts, in order that the other Judges might be encouraged to aspire to promotion. He thought that, if the salaries of the Chiefs of two of the Courts were reduced, the logical inference was that the salaries of the inferior Judges should be reduced also. He hoped the clause would be struck out.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was willing that the clause should be expunged, as well as all the money clauses which would otherwise be struck out on the Bill going down to the Commons as irregular. His reason for inserting them was, that he did not think it right to keep in the background any of the changes which it was proposed to make. The question, however, had better go to the Commons entirely unprejudiced, as it would there be more fitly considered.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYhoped that when the Bill came back to their Lordships the question would not be passed over as a matter of course.
§ Clauses struck out: Amendments made.
§ Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.