LORD CAMPBELL, in rising to move the following Standing Order:—
That if two or more Peers rise to speak at the same time the Lord Chancellor, and when the House is in Committee the Chairman of Committees, shall call on one of them to proceed, unless the House do otherwise order,said, that their Lordships were now arriving at a period of the Session when their sittings would be prolonged, and when the necessity for such a provision as that which he advocated would be 1934 felt. He could remind their Lordships of many cases of confusion and clamour, which had arisen in consequence of two or more Peers rising together, and there being no arbitrary power to decide between the contending parties, but he would refer only to what occurred last year during the debates on the Irish Church Bill. It was no secret that during those debates the noble Duke who occupied the high office of Chancellor of the University of Cambridge (the Duke of Devonshire) would not have been able to deliver his opinion but for the interference of a noble Marquess on the cross-Benches, who moved that the noble Duke be heard. The present proposition was the result of a conference with many noble Lords, who all felt that the present system was attended with much inconvenience, and was calculated to suppress Parliamentary ability by preventing Peers who might be well acquainted with the subject in hand, and who were well deserving a hearing, from delivering their opinions. To avoid the chaos which would otherwise result from the existing system, it was notorious that, when long debates were expected, the Leaders of both sides of the House were in the habit of arranging a programme for the evening; but while there were many Peers who, from diffidence, would not care to announce themselves as intending speakers, there were others also whose claims on the Leaders of political parties could not insure them a hearing. With regard, for instance, to the Members of the right rev. Bench, the spirit of their Order and the sanctity of their vocation compelled them to hold aloof, and under the present anomalous and undesirable system they might possibly again witness the spectacle of a right rev. Prelate endeavouring for some minutes to obtain a I hearing amid the cries and clamour with which his appearance was greeted. The present Order would only very slightly increase the powers of the Lord Chancellor, for the noble Lord, as Speaker of the House, had already authority to repress conversation and interruptions behind the Woolsack; and the power he proposed to vest in the Chairman of Committees was analogous to that vested in the Chairman of Committees in the other House of Parliament; and such a power could excite no opposition, as the noble Lord was appointed by the House 1935 He should not be surprised if both the Leader of Opposition and the Leader of the Government in that House voted against his Motion, but he did not think their opinion should prevail in this matter; nor should he be astonished if the Motion were resisted by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and also by the Chairman of Committees, partly because they would naturally shrink from new duties and responsibilities, and partly because the Motion might be supposed to lead to the augmentation of their salaries, and it might be thought becoming to indulge in a few graceful terms of self-disparagement. The House, however, which was accustomed to listen to them with gravity, would know how much attention their opposition deserved. If the Standing Order he proposed were declined, what was the alternative? It had been suggested not many years ago by a Committee of their Lordships' House that the Lord Chancellor should quit the Woolsack altogether and be replaced by a Speaker whom the House might choose. He thought that a change less violent and startling might be admitted before that conclusion was arrived at. With that view he proposed the Standing Order of which he had given Notice.Moved, That the words following be added to the Roll of Standing Orders:—That if two or more Peers rise to speak at the same time the Lord Chancellor, and when the House is in Committee the Chairman of Committees, shall call on one of them to proceed, unless the House do otherwise order."—(The Lord Stratheden.)
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, it was well known that the due maintenance of order in their Lordships' House had been the favourite theme of many enthusiastic reformers; but up to the present, he rather feared, without much effect. He was amused in looking round the House while the noble Lord talked of the Lord Chancellor keeping order—for what did he see? Why, every Member of the Government was talking to his neighbour, and the noble and learned Lord himself was talking to the Judge of the Divorce Court on the Woolsack. That did not give a very fair prospect of success to the proposal of his noble Friend, for which he confessed he was himself somewhat anxious. He was not very fond of introducing their old friend the "intelligent fo- 1936 reigner," but there was no occasion on which his introduction could be more fitting. Nothing was more imposing than the aspect of the House of Lords during a great debate, so long as the speeches were going on; but when a speaker sat down and several others wished to address the House, what did the "intelligent foreigner" see? He saw several figures get up in various parts of the House; and the mode in which the question was decided who should be heard could only be described as a renewal of the "O. P." rows in the theatre. He was himself accustomed to the thing, and, having studied the phenomena with much interest, he might say that the chance of any noble Lord depended very much on the distinctness and loudness with which he might call; and it also somewhat depended on the length of his name, for very little attention was paid to anyone with a monosyllabic name. But, seriously, there were two great evils to which the present system gave rise. There was, first, the scandal and disorder of the somewhat noisy scenes that might arise; and, secondly, it practically did to a great extent tend to the discouragement of debating in that House. Those who had been Members of the House of Commons, looking back on their early experience, could not help congratulating themselves on the fact that the eye of the Speaker did not always fall on the most eminent speakers—it looked all round, and thus the young Member often caught the happy chance of speaking; while any assembly must naturally be always anxious to hear those they were most accustomed to, and for whom they had the greatest respect. What was the effect of that? The effect was, that the debates in their Lordships' House were mainly filled up by those already eminent in debate, and that the succession of debaters was in danger of being stopped. Those who had fought the battle in the House of Commons had acquired a certain freedom from bash-fulness; but such as had not that advantage naturally shrank from the tremendous ordeal of forcing themselves on their Lordships' notice, and in a condition of life with temptations to industry not very great, and to sit down to a silent discharge of duty as an hereditary legislator very strong, he thought such influences had no mean effect in preventing the training of future orators 1937 and statesmen which that House, no less than the other, ought to furnish. He was quite aware that the necessary freedom from bashfulness to which he had alluded had been acquired by some distinguished Members of their Lordships' House without passing through the other House; but anything which tended to discourage new men coining forward must prevent their debates from acquiring the interest they would otherwise possess; while to diminish the future supply of speakers was restricting the only training for statesmen which was recognized in England, and, therefore, was not only detrimental to the interests of the House itself, but pernicious to the interests of the public. It was very difficult to speak on this subject without appearing to use language too large for it. The subject was a small one; but he felt it of sufficient importance to call for the consideration of the noble Earl (Earl Granville) opposite, who took so much interest in everything likely to promote the order and the convenience of their Lordships' House.
EARL GEANVILLEmust say he thought the remark of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), that the younger Members of the House had not, under the present rule of proceeding, a proper opportunity to take part in the debates, was not just, for of late years several young Members, whose speeches gave promise of future excellence, had engaged their Lordships' attention. But the course of proceeding at present observed was not a new state of things, but had been going on for years and years; and he was not aware of any remarkable coyness of the present generation as compared with former generations. With respect to the House of Commons, there was in connection with the party on each side of the House a very useful person, and it often happened that he was induced to go and tell the Speaker in a whisper that there was a young man desirous of making his maiden speech, and the Speaker then let the young gentleman catch his eye. In like manner, in their Lordships' House, if a young Peer told his neighbour that he intended to speak, the general rule was that he, in the event of other Peers rising with him, was called on to speak; and if it happened to be the first time of his presenting himself to their Lordships' notice, even the most 1938 eminent men in the House were disposed to give way to him. The House of Commons had a weapon in its energy and roughness, he might say, which their Lordships did not possess, and by its means the Members exercised a police over their debates, independent of the Speaker, which their Lordships could not exercise. When the House of Commons expressed unwillingness to listen to a speaker, it required great moral courage in a Member to persevere in addressing the House against the general feeling. If, however, the Lord Chancellor should be suddenly called on to make a selection among three or four eminent men, all desirous at the same time of addressing their Lordships, it would be extremely difficult for him to exercise his discretion in a manner satisfactory to himself. There was not, in his opinion, any such advantage in the proposed change as to induce their Lordships to agree to it.
THE MARQUESS of CLANEICAEDEthought that the noble Earl had given no sufficient reason against the proposition. The noble Earl alluded to the decorum maintained in their Lordships' House; and he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had hitherto preferred retaining the power the House had always exercised; but it should be remembered that the number of Peers in the House had of late years been greatly augmented, and he was not aware that it had been found possible to keep order in any numerous assembly without appointing a Chairman for the purpose. He trusted that the Government, if they objected to adopt the present proposal, would take the matter into consideration.
THE DUKE OF EICHMONDsaid, that this could not be considered a party question, inasmuch as he agreed with the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies in respect to it. The noble Marquess who last spoke said that the Government had given no reason why the Motion should not be agreed to; but a very potent reason was really given when it was stated that they had gone on for a considerable time with the present practice without inconvenience. In that case, he asked, why should they not leave well alone? From his experience in their Lordships' House, as well as in the House of Commons, he could state that any Member rising to speak on a subject with, which he was known to be 1939 acquainted, and in reference to which, he could impart information, always found an attentive hearing. He failed, moreover, to discover any reason for supposing that the proposal now made would have the effect of increasing the number of speakers in their Lordships' House.
§ LORD CAIRNSput the case of a number of noble Lords rising at once to address the House, and of the Lord Chancellor also being anxious to speak at the same time. He asked, under these circumstances, what the Lord Chancellor was to do?
THE LORD CHANCELLORdesired to remind their Lordships that, on a former occasion, he had mentioned two conclusive reasons why it was not desirable to give such power as now proposed to the occupant of the Woolsack. The first was, that the Speaker of the House of Commons was elected by that House; whereas the Lord Chancellor was appointed by the Crown. The other reason, was, that the Speaker was always chosen from among those who had long experience of, and were acquainted with, the forms and. customs of the House of Commons, and whose decision carried with it weight and confidence. The Lord Chancellor, on the contrary, was—especially if recently appointed—comparatively new to the House of Lords, and could not be supposed to be acquainted with all its customs and forms, and his decision, therefore, would not carry with it due weight, and might be suspected of partiality as he was not chosen by their Lordships. He therefore thought it unreasonable to expect that the Lord Chancellor could discharge the duty now sought to be imposed on him with satisfaction to himself.
LORD CAMPBELLwould remind their Lordships that he did not in any way propose to give the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack the power of rebuking irregularities, or any authority whatever, except that simply of naming which of two Peers should be entitled to precedence. He rejoiced to hear that the Division which would now be taken would not in any way be regarded as a party Division.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he would suggest to the noble Lord whether it would not be better, instead of proceeding to a Division, the effect of which would be to pledge the House 1940 against the proposition, to leave the matter where it stood, and allow time for the conversion of noble Lords who might possibly support such a proposition on a future occasion.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that in deference to the authority and wishes of the noble Marquess, he would withdraw his proposal.
§ Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.