HL Deb 29 July 1870 vol 203 cc1190-3

Clause 94 (Conditions of annual Parliamentary Grant).


moved an Amendment, in page 36, line 12, after "school" insert— Or that it shall be carried on by a teacher certificated by the Education Department.


hoped their Lordships would not assent to the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.


moved to add, at end of Clause 94— Provided, that no conditions shall be required to be fulfilled by an elementary school in order to obtain an annual Parliamentary Grant by any Minutes of the Education Department not in force at the time of the passing of this Act, unless such Minutes shall have been laid for six weeks upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament and shall not have been objected to in an Address to Her Majesty from either House. Were the clause to be passed as it stood it would be competent for the Privy Council to turn the compromise secured by the Church of England, after what, he must confess, was a severe battle, into a complete defeat. The Amendment he proposed would give that body some security that the results they had obtained should not be destroyed at the caprice of the Executive for the time being.


said, he was willing to accept the first part of the Amendment; but he did not think the House of Commons would approve the regulations of the Privy Council being set aside by a single vote of the House of Lords. He had no objection to accept the Amendment, provided the noble Marquess would make it necessary that the Address should be agreed to by both Houses.


said, he must ask the House to consider his proposal as a whole, because without it the security for the future of the Church of England would be very precarious indeed.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule.


moved to add another column, showing the amount of rate levied for school purposes exclusively.

Amendment agreed to.

Second Schedule.


said, that having addressed the House upon the subject of the mode of election proposed by this Schedule at some length upon the second reading of the Bill, he did not propose to make many observations on the subject on the present occasion. He did not think that election by Ballot was a mode fairly applicable in the present case. As the Schedule stood it was provided that— Any poll shall be taken by ballot in accordance with the principles upon which a poll is taken under the Metropolis Management Act, 1855. He proposed that in lieu of the foregoing words, there should be inserted words providing that in the metropolis the poll should be taken in like manner as votes are now taken under the Metropolis Management Act of 1855, and that in other districts it should be taken in like manner as the poll is now taken of burgesses or ratepayers in the election of town councillors or guardians, as the case may be. If this Amendment were adopted, the votes in the country districts would be taken as the votes for Poor Law Guardians had been taken for many years past.

Amendment moved to leave out from ("taken") to the end of the paragraph, and insert— ("In the Metropolis in like manner as a poll is taken under the Metropolis Management Act, 1855, and shall be taken in any other district in like manner as a poll of burgesses or ratepayers (as the case may be) is usually taken in such district.")—(The Duke of Richmond.)


said, he would not delay their Lordships at that late hour by going at any length into the circumstances under which the Ballot system had been introduced into the Bill. He was sorry he could not agree to the Amendment. He did not regard taking the votes by Ballot in the same sense the noble Duke did, but as a convenient mode of conducting these elections. Its adoption in this Bill would have the advantage of shielding the voters from the pressure of political leaders or the leaders of any particular religious denomination, who wished to see a man elected on the Board not from his educational merits, but solely from his connection with a particular party or denomination. He believed it was by no means an imaginary danger, considering that an amount of denominational heat had been expressed in reference to this Bill that he had not expected to see exhibited in these days.


regretted that the mischievous word "Ballot" had been introduced into the Education Bill. He detested secret voting. He had never blackballed a man but once, and then he told him of it immediately after.

On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule?—Their Lordships divided:—Contents 53; Not-Contents 72: Majority 19.

Words struck out.

Then the words— ("In the Metropolis in like manner as a poll is taken under the Metropolis Management Act, 1855, and shall be taken in any other district in like manner as a poll of burgesses or ratepayers (as the case may be) is usually taken in such district,") inserted in lieu thereof.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.



, referring to the question he had opened upon a previous clause of the Bill, moved to insert— Whereas it is most desirable to extend the advantages of education throughout the whole compass of England and Wales in such manner that no one shall be excluded from any elementary school by reason of religious scruples, and also to consider religious instruction grounded on Christian principles as the true complement of sound elementary education.


asked his noble Friend not to press the Amendment, which was undesirable—besides which there had been a practice of late years to dispense with long Preambles that had no enacting power. He could not agree with the statement that there was not in the Bill any provision as to religious instruction, although it was not set out in so many words. The words proposed might raise questions which it would be undesirable to discuss.


said, he did not think the noble Earl was justified in dealing with the Preamble as a formality after the animated conflict which took place on the Preamble to the Bill of last Session. In the present state of the House he did not think that his noble Friend could press his Amendment; but he thought the words proposed would give a more satisfactory interpretation to the Bill. The Government might accede to words which they themselves confessed could not do any injury.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Preamble agreed to.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 262.)