COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 21 July 1870)

§ LORD ROMILLY
said, he regretted to be obliged to make a few observations on the measure, which he thought was spoilt from mere parsimony. It was the special duty of the State to provide proper Judges for the trial of causes, and they could never secure proper respect for the Judicial Committee of Privy Council unless they had persons sitting on it who earned that respect from the public, and they could not obtain the services of such persons unless they chose to pay them. He felt very strongly on that subject, because it was one of the reproaches of this country that it made a profit out of litigation — that it made a considerable profit out of the misfortunes of persons who were compelled to go to law—which was just as monstrous in principle as if they were to tax, for the support of the police, every man who had his pocket picked or his house broken into. If any of their Lordships would take the opportunity of reading a little tract by Jeremy Bentham, entitled, A Protest against Law Taxes, he should be very much surprised if it did not convince them of the iniquity of a tax upon persons who went to law. He firmly believed that the noble Duke who presided with great ability and zeal over the Indian Department (the Duke of Argyll) was fully determined and very anxious to make the best provision he possibly could for the due administration of the law in India; but this was not the way to accomplish it. On a recent occasion when that subject was before their Lordships, he (Lord Romilly) had ventured to point out that there were two things which ought to be done for this purpose: the one was to improve the legal tribunals in India, and the other was to improve the Court of Appeal at home. The number of appeals from the local tribunals of India to Calcutta reached every year, he believed, about 7,000. It was impossible that the Judges there could hear all those cases, and a greater staff of Judges was absolutely necessary to dispose of them. It was one of the consequences, and also a gratifying consequence, of the good government of India that we 625 had an enormous amount of litigation among its people, because they would not go to law as they did unless they expected to get justice. The increase of legal proceedings in India showed the necessity of providing good Judges there. Now, in order to meet that necessity the position of the Judges must be raised. Then, again, great care should be taken not only that their ultimate tribunal should be able to dispose of the cases which came before it, but that the men they obtained to serve on that tribunal should be such as would inspire confidence among the public and the profession both at home and abroad. To suppose, however, that they could get such men for £500 a year, even in addition to a retiring pension, was, in his opinion, perfectly ridiculous; and, again, the idea that they could secure them for, £2,500 was, in his view, equally absurd. They must always bear in mind the great increase in the price of all commodities which had occurred of late years, together with the great increase which had occurred in the remuneration obtained by lawyers. That fact ought not to be lost sight of when they were attempting to fix the salary to be given to a Judge. If, therefore, the proposal contained in that Bill were not altered, he ventured to predict that their Judicial Committee of the Privy Council would not rise in the public estimation, and would not satisfy the people either at home or abroad.

LORD DENMAN
objected to the amounts which it was proposed to pay to those who were to be appointed to clear off the arrears of business before the Judicial Committee; for it was not for their Lordships to determine that matter, and in 1831 the Bankruptcy Bill left the House of Lords without any retiring pension being proposed for the Lord Chancellor; but in the House of Commons £6,000 a year was proposed, and the clause was withdrawn, as well as all retiring pensions for the new Commissioners in Bankruptcy, and he believed they might trust to the generosity of hon. Members in "another place" for requiting even those who for years had diminished the arrears in the Privy Council; and if the retiring pensions of those colonial Chief Justices were insufficient, on their declaring that fact, he would act as in the case of retired Ministers, and he had no doubt that 626 the other House would allow full remuneration from the Consolidated Fund for those who had zealously served their country.

§ LORD CAIRNS
said, there was not much use in discussing clauses relating to sums which must be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, as they would have to be struck out before they left that House; but he thought all objections of that kind would be met if the Bill were made a temporary Bill, intended to meet a temporary crisis, which he hoped would not occur again. He would, therefore, suggest the adoption of a clause limiting the operation of the Bill to two years, during which time the arrears of business could be cleared off. He hoped their Lordships would reject the proposition that colonial Chief Justices should be eligible to be members of the Judicial Committee. He thought that no retired Judge should be eligible except the Chief Justice of Bengal. As to the proposition for appointing barristers of 15 years' standing, he would ask his noble and learned Friend if he thought it likely he could obtain the services of such men as were required for this office? It was hopeless to expect that the services of barristers of experience and ability could be secured for £2,500 per annum; or, if they could, the judicial salaries paid in this country ought at once to be reduced by one-half. He was also of opinion that the proposed addition to certain salaries would destroy the present system of voluntary service.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
said, he agreed with what the noble and learned Lord (Lord Romilly) had said as to the impropriety of paying the expenses of a tribunal by levying fees upon the suitors; but that had no relation to this Bill, for there were no fees provided for in it. As regarded the question whether or not the tribunal could be respected unless its members were highly paid, he begged to remind his noble and learned Friend, that the present tribunal, consisting of several unpaid members, had existed for 35 years, and none was more respected. Of course, at times, and especially when it had had to deal with controverted topics of religion, its decisions had been assailed; but, in regard to legal matters, it always had been, and was unassailable. He would also remind the House that the Judge who did most to raise the tribunal to its great emi- 627 nence was the late Lord Kingsdown, whose services were wholly voluntary. As to the observations of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Cairns), there was no objection to making this a temporary measure if it were secured that those who were appointed under it should not be turned adrift at the end of three years, for if that were likely no one would be willing to accept the appointments. As to the proposed payments not being sufficient to insure the services of men who were qualified to take part in the hearing of cases which came before the Judicial Committee, that must be a matter of opinion; and although he had not made any proposition to persons likely to act—for to do so would be indecent and improper — yet statements had incidentally been made to him which rendered him confident that an effective tribunal could be secured by means of this Bill.