Lords Sitting of 19 July 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Telegraph Acts Extension* (206); New Zealand (Guarantee of Loan) (207).
Committee — Medical Officers Superannuation (169).
Report—Public Health (Scotland) Supplemental* (217); Liverpool Admiralty District Registrar* (218).
Third Reading—Petty Customs (Scotland) Abolition* (205); Passengers Act Amendment* (176), and passed.
Withdrawn — Bankrupt Law Amendment (Ireland) (117).

BANKRUPT LAW AMENDMENT (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 117.)
(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)
BANKRUPT LAW AMENDMENT (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 117.)

  ORDER FOR THIRD READING DISCHARGED.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that he proposed to move that the Order for the Third Reading be discharged; but in doing so he desired, nevertheless, to impress on their Lordships the importance of the object of
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  the measure—which was to bring non-traders under the operation of the Bankruptcy Law, a principle which worked well in England, and, as had recently been ruled, was applicable even to a Member of their Lordships' House. At a time when a feeling in favour of the repeal of the Union was growing in Ireland, it was very impolitic to neglect questions which were of great importance to business men, who never engaged in any agitation, for such neglect would be made use of as a proof that the British Parliament did not attend to the interests of Ireland. He hoped the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would give him an assurance that this question would be taken up early next year by the Irish Law Officers.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was glad the noble Marquess proposed to withdraw the Bill. The new English Bankruptcy Law had not yet been sufficiently tested to show how far it was desirable to extend it to Ireland; and the present Bill, having for its object the extension of the old law to non-traders, would give increased scope to a provision which was found very fruitful in fraud in England—namely, that which enabled persons to become bankrupts on their own petition. Having had no opportunity of communicating with the Irish Law Officers, he could give no promise that the Government would bring in a comprehensive measure next Session; and Parliament having for two Sessions been a good deal occupied with Irish questions, he was not sure that the task could be then undertaken. He trusted, however, that if it were taken up it would be dealt with in a comprehensive manner, whether as regarded traders or non-traders.
  Motion agreed to.
  Order for the Third Reading discharged.

MEDICAL OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION BILL—(No. 169.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
MEDICAL OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION BILL—(No. 169.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the object of the measure was to extend to medical officers who had not devoted their whole time to the parish the power of retiring on a pension, with

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  the consent of the guardians, if 60 years of age or infirm. This provision was at present confined to officers who had given their whole time to the parish; but the former were, in general, a far higher class, whom, it was desirable to encourage in taking these offices. Moreover, the poor were injured by the continuance in office of infirm or aged men. In order to prevent corrupt arrangements, and in deference to the objections of his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond), he would propose an Amendment providing that a medical officer desiring to retire on a pension should satisfy the Poor Law Inspector or some person appointed by the Poor Law Board as to the grounds of his retirement.
  Amendment moved, to insert the following clause:—
  "No pension shall be obtained by any person under this Act on the ground of permanent infirmity of mind or body unless the Poor Law Inspector of the district, or some person authorized in that behalf by the Poor Law Board, shall have first certified that in his opinion such officer has by reason of such infirmity become incapable of performing the duties of his office with efficiency."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDadmitted that the Amendment of his noble Friend went a long way towards meeting his objections to the Bill. His objection was, that to require the medical officers to devote the whole of their time to the duties of their post was a proposal vicious in principle; and the Amendment did not altogether provide a remedy. He should not, however, offer any further opposition to the Bill.
  Amendment agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendment to be received on Thursday next.

NEW ZEALAND (GUARANTEE OF LOAN) BILL—(No. 207.)
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
NEW ZEALAND (GUARANTEE OF LOAN) BILL—(No. 207.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  EARL GREYsaid, that of all modes of assisting a Colony the guarantee of a loan was the worst. Most of the Colonies had shown a disposition to abuse their powers of borrowing money, and New Zealand itself was a striking instance
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  of this. It was all very well to say that a guarantee cost this country nothing. A young man was urged on a like plea to back a bill for a friend. Moreover, if a guarantee was given to one Colony why not to another? He strongly objected to the Bill.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that as he had himself on one occasion, while expressing his preference of military aid, suggested the guarantee of a loan, he could not be said to be entirely opposed to them. On the occasion to which he referred the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) took him to task for so doing, and laid down a series of admirable economic principles, in which he urged that it was unwise and altogether objectionable to guarantee loans to our Colonies, and said that it was very much against the interests of the Colonies themselves that they should be encouraged to borrow, and the noble Earl proceeded to say that had he given a guarantee to New Zealand the Colony would have been burdened with an additional debt of £1,500,000; and that its future credit would thereby have been injured. In that remark he (the Earl of Carnarvon) quite agreed, and he could not help asking what there could possibly be to induce him two months after making that statement to depart from so sound a principle. Having been charged by the noble Earl with exaggeration when on a former occasion he dwelt on the serious danger of some great catastrophe through our policy towards New Zealand, he wished to justify himself by reference to a Memorandum of the Colonial Minister of New Zealand which had since been published. The Memorandum stated substantially the result of that decision was that the Imperial Government virtually retired from the great colonizing work which it had undertaken; that it told the colonists and Natives to do what they liked, for it had ceased to care what might happen; that it even refused to leave troops if the Colony paid for them, on account of the contingencies which this would involve; and that New Zealand was thus told that it had ceased to be a part of the Empire. It added that the Assembly would possibly think that on so important a matter as the severance of a Colony from the Empire the Imperial Legislature should express an opinion, and that possibly the course of

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  public opinion, already in a measure expressed, would induce Her Majesty's Government to regret the invitation to New Zealand to leave the Empire implied in the noble Earl's despatch. Now, he pronounced no opinion on this Memorandum, which was somewhat voluminous, but their Lordships could read it for themselves if they desired; but he referred to it in order to show that in stating that we were on the verge of a serious catastrophe in New Zealand he did not outstep the limits of truth and was guilty of no exaggeration.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he had always contended that the Colonies should govern themselves, fight their own battles, and pay their own expenses, and he approved the withdrawal of the troops from New Zealand, as their presence tended to promote war with the Natives and harsh conduct on the part of the settlers—just as their presence in Canada encouraged, if it did not excite, the notion of some persons in the United States that they should attack that Colony. He objected also, as a rule, to guarantees, because in many instances they had been improperly applied; but this, being for the specific and pacific purpose of making roads, which it was true might be advantageous in case of war, but which likewise extended civilization and improvement, and promoted intercourse with the Natives, was of an exceptional character. The present state of Now Zealand, which encouraged us to anticipate for it a peaceful and prosperous career, was a triumphant refutation of the charges and animadversions which had been directed at his noble Friend (Earl Granville)—especially by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon). There could not be a greater mistake than to suppose that our present colonial policy implied any desire for separation. He believed, on the contrary, that self-government would unite the Colonies to us more closely than any other policy; and that, with the love of independence which Britons in all parts of the world should possess, they would be thankful to us for pursuing such a policy. He presumed the Memorandum mentioned by the noble Earl had not been printed in the Blue Books? [The Earl of CARNARVON intimated that it had not.] In that case, as it was an important document, he hoped his noble Friend would lay it before the House.
  EARL GRANVILLEadmitted that his noble Friend (Earl Grey) had always consistently objected to the guarantee of colonial loans. He was also, however, the advocate of an opinion which had not been entertained by Governments for many years, and he believed was not held by the country at large—namely, that we should retrench the liberty we had given to our self-governing Colonies, in order to assume greater control over their affairs than of late years we had done. As to the refusal of military assistance, he was excused from defending it by the remarks of his noble Friend (Lord Lyveden), or it would be easy to show that the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) was not perfectly consistent with himself. He wrote last autumn a letter to The Times advocating the guarantee of a loan without reference to any specific expenditure, military or otherwise. Now, this would have been a direct encouragement to the Colony to continue their proceedings against the Natives, instead of adopting the policy which had answered so well—that of limiting the war to the greatest degree, and cultivating friendly relations with the great majority of the Natives. For his own part, he was bound to say that, absolutely and in point of consistency, he could not defend this guarantee; but as an exceptional measure it was perfectly defensible and desirable. The definitive carrying out of the policy of withdrawing the troops, which had been the object of many successive Secretaries of State, naturally caused irritation in the Colony, as the withdrawal of privileges usually did; and the conviction of the colonists that they were very much ill - used was materially strengthened by violent letters and speeches in this country, which described our object as that of cutting them off from the mother country. Indeed, he must say that this feeling was not without some encouragement from the letters and frequent speeches of the noble Earl. In that state of things the colonial Ministers wrote the Memorandum referred to by the noble Earl, containing vague menaces as to the future which he never for a moment believed, notwithstanding the encouragement they received in England, they would think of putting into effect. He would, however, rather not go into a discussion on this subject, which would re-open sores

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  which it was the object of this small guarantee to heal. It was desirable to employ the friendly Natives, who had behaved admirably as soldiers, in some useful occupation, such as making roads and public works, thus not only developing the resources of the country, but tending to pacify it. The Government, therefore, after much consideration, decided that this was an exception to the rule which they might fairly propose to Parliament as a graceful concession, which would soothe the somewhat acrimonious feelings which had attended the carrying out of our policy as regarded New Zealand.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.