MOTION FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 4 July 1870)

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE
My Lords, I can assure your Lordships that in asking the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies for some information respecting a transaction that has recently taken place in the North-west part of the American Continent, I have no intention to enter into any discussion as to the legality of what has occurred in that part of the world or into any disputes that may have taken place in reference to the Hudson's Bay Company; but my Lords there are matters connected with the occurrences to which I have alluded with respect to which I think Parliament ought to be informed and upon which, as far as I have heard, Parliament has as yet received no information whatever from the Government. I allude, my Lords, to the occurrences which have recently taken place in the Red River Settlement, which we are told has been engaged in hostilities of some sort or another. Of the 1332 nature of those hostilities or with whom they have been carried on I am altogether unaware—but I think that Parliament ought to be informed whether the war that has taken place there is a civil war between particular tribes, between different states, or between different nations. From all I have heard in reference to the subject, it appears to me that, practically, this is a case of Her Majesty's troops being engaged in a war without Parliament knowing anything about it. They have been sent for a long distance through a difficult and intricate country to the Red River Settlement, which is in the neighbourhood of the United States, and on the borders of which we learn that a war has occurred. My Lords, I should like to hear from the noble Lord the Secretary to the Colonies what is the object for which this war has been undertaken, and what are the instructions which have been given to whoever may command the troops, and who are the persons who have given those instructions. My Lords, the newspapers talk of the Red River Rebellion. Now, if there is a rebellion there must be rebels, and I want to know who these rebels are, and against whom they are in rebellion, and what are the disputed questions upon which they have disagreed—from the power against whom they are said to be in rebellion. Upon all these points Parliament has as yet received no information; and although the outbreak occurred in the month of October last year, the Speech from the Throne contained no allusion to it at the commencement of Parliament, perhaps because it was not thought to be of sufficient importance to warrant such notice being taken of it. My Lords, from all I can gather upon the subject, I do not believe that the general body of the settlers have the slightest intention to throw off the allegiance that they owe to this country, but they object to being transferred from the Hudson's Bay Company to the Dominion of Canada. Now, my Lords, I should like to know whether that is an accurate statement of the case, and if so, why we send our army to coerce these people into becoming a part of the newly established Canadian Dominion against their expressed wishes? Now, I do not intend to go into the question of the part taken by Great Britain in establishing that Dominion, but I do not understand, why we should coerce the inhabitants of 1333 the Red River Settlement into joining it if they were opposed to such an amalgamation, of their country with the other British States of North America. I understand that some of these persons have stated that they hold their land by right of occupation of waste and desert land, and that having paid money to the Hudson's Bay Company for permission to settle, they are about to be transferred to another Government without their consent having been obtained. Now, I want to know what their exact rights are in reference to this question. In the years 1749 and 1857 Committees of the House of Commons were appointed to inquire into this question. On the first occasion the whole principle of the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company was investigated, and I understand from the report of this Committee, it was declared that they had no territorial or property rights whatever; and on the last occasion, such Committee declined to entertain the question of any such right—which by two previous statutes of the 2 William & Mary and 23 & 24 William & Mary c. 15, was declared to be at an end; and that that is the opinion of a very learned person in this country upon the authority of these enactments. I do not intend to discuss that point at the present moment, but what I want to know is why these persons are considered to be in rebellion? They certainly do not appear to have rebelled against us—but it seems that a certain person was sent by the Canadian Government to take possession of the Red River Territory. Now I should like to know from the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the true nature of his position, and what authority he had for going there, by whom his commission was signed, whether by the Home Government or by the newly established Canadian Government, and if by the latter, by what right they signed his commission and appointed him Governor of the territory in question? This district into which this expedition was sent, your Lordships will be aware, is very near the Oregon boundary, and many of the settlers upon it are subjects of the United States; therefore under these circumstances it was very rash to send a military force to those boundaries. I do not understand that we ourselves have sent there any civilian officer, or that we have established there any civilian go- 1334 vernment, but I hold in my hand a copy of the summons which is so extra ordinary and unique a document that I hope your Lordships will allow me to read it. It is a summons purporting to be issued by persons claiming to exercise authority in the Red River Territory, and is directed to a general trader, named Stewart, requiring him to attend the Court of the district to answer for selling spirits without a licence. It is as follows:— Middle District Court to Stewart,— I hereby order you to appear in the Court of this district, on the nineteenth of April, to answer the Public for selling spirits without a licence. (Signed) April 13th, 1869. Now, my Lords, I recollect that many questionable transactions were carried on in the name of the Trench Republic, and that occasionally, a system called Lynch Law has been adopted, but this is the first time I ever saw a summons for selling spirits without a licence which did not specify from whence and from whom the licence was to come. I should presume in this case that the judgment would depend very much upon the quality of the spirits sold, for I cannot see by what else the case could be determined. My Lords, if it be true, as it has been stated, that the Government having decided that the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company are no rights at all they are to be transferred to the Dominion of Canada, that may be a transaction perfectly justifiable in itself for ought I know, but it appears to be a most objectionable proceeding that in any part of the world we should sell not British land or property but British subjects—that we should buy them from one power to sell them to another. That is a proceeding which I should be very loth to sanction. I maintain that the Government have no right without the consent of Parliament to transfer the allegiance of the possessors of British soil from one party to another as though they were so many slaves. Both by common law and by statute law I apprehend that the power of making such a change must rest in Parliament alone and cannot be exercised by Orders in Council or by any similar proceeding. It is for these reasons I have moved for the production of the correspondence in relation to this subject, and I hope that the noble Lord will have no objection 1335 to give me the information to which I allude at the end of my Notice. What I want to know is, what are the feelings of these people, how far they are justly called rebels, and what is the nature of their position towards this country and towards Canada.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, he was not aware till half-an-hour ago that the noble Marquess intended to do more than move for the Papers mentioned in his Notice. There had of late been much comment in the House of Commons and elsewhere on the unnecessary expense incurred in printing voluminous documents which nobody ever read. In this particular case it appeared that Mr. Corbett had addressed letters to himself (Earl Granville) and his predecessors in Office expressing opinions, but giving no authority for the statements of fact contained in them. He had since published them, after inquiring whether there was any objection to this, and being told there was none. Why Parliament, therefore, should be at the expense of printing and circulating for the rev. gentleman letters which probably had not had any great sale, or been much read, he was at a loss to understand. As to Petitions, there was not the slightest wish to hold back anything of the kind. Most of the Papers referred to in the Motion had been printed, and some would be ready almost immediately, while the rest would be presented before the end of the Session. It was too late now to question the legality of the transfer of the territory to the Dominion, and that arrangement was only made after long negotiation. The object of the military expedition which had started was not to conquer a rebellion, but for the purpose of securing that state of order which he trusted the expedition would find prevailing; and with regard to the Dominion Go- 1336 vernment, he would only say that, while he certainly could not defend certain of its acts to which the noble Marquess had referred, he was bound to say that ever since that time it had acted with singular judgment, caution, and moderation, and in perfect accord with Her Majesty's Government.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON
said, he would not enter into a discussion now, as the noble Earl had stated that many of the Papers were already printed; but the subject was one of much importance, and must not be measured by the size of the territory or the number of its inhabitants. He was glad that by the sending of British troops it had been recognized as an Imperial question, and he looked forward with great interest to the explanations promised by the noble Earl, which he hoped would be given on an early day.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE
, in withdrawing the Motion, said, that he was informed that the Papers referred to had only been published for private circulation.