Lords Sitting of 1 July 1870

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Hawke, after the death of his cousin.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Passengers Act Amendment * (176).
Second Heading—Local Government Supplemental * (150); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Supplemental * (155); Public Health (Scotland) Supplemental* (154).
Committee—Ecclesiastical Titles Act Repeal (105–175).
Third Reading—Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans) * (131), and passed.

JUDICIAL COMMITTEE OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL.—MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
LORD WESTBURY, in rising to call the attention of their Lordships to the state of the appellate business before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, said, that this was a question which involved no technicalities of the law, but one which their Lordships would easily appreciate; and it was one in which he was confident their Lordships would take interest, because it approached that which was the first object of all civilized government, the duty of providing for the effectual administration of justice. But before he entered into the details of his statement he would first explain the origin of the jurisdiction of the Privy Council, and its present extent and importance. All were aware that the ordinary Courts of Justice of the Kingdom—the Courts of Chancery, the Queen's Bench, the Common Pleas, and others—though, some of them had power under recent Acts of Parliament of serving process abroad, had no jurisdiction beyond the limits of the United Kingdom—not even over the Channel Islands—and the whole of our immense Empire—all our vast territorial possessions, our Colonies and dependencies—look, as far as the ad-
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ministration of justice was concerned, to the Prerogative of the Crown. It was the right of the Crown to establish Courts of Justice in all our territories; and though the exercise of that prerogative had sometimes been restricted by special Acts of Parliament, all those Acts reserved to the Sovereign in Council the ultimate appellate jurisdiction. Thus for India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, our American settlements, and every foreign possession, and even those foreign countries in which Consular Courts had been established by treaty—in all these the final determination of causes rested with the Queen in Council. The importance, therefore, of the constitution of a tribunal exercising jurisdiction over such immense territories and so many millions of people could not be over-estimated. The effectual discharge of its duties concerned the honour of the Crown and the dignity of the nation. Now, within the last 20 years the amount of business coming before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council had been augmented ten-fold. Originally very few appeals came for the decision of the Queen in Council, but a vast number now came from India and a great many from our various Colonies, and they were likely to increase with the increase of our wealth and commercial relations. In proportion to that increase of our national expansion was the necessity of establishing a final tribunal to check the local Courts and to provide effectually for the administration of justice on well-known principles in every part of our Empire. He was happy to say that there was ample evidence that through the whole of our Colonial Empire the value of this final tribunal was so greatly appreciated that the inhabitants of the various Colonies held it in the greatest respect, and had the utmost confidence that any error or excess on the part of their local jurisdictions would be readily corrected by a resort to it. Indeed, the existence of this great tribunal and the necessity of resorting to it from all countries formed a great bond of union between the mother country and our colonial Empire. Their Lordships would judge of the imperfect manner in which our duty in this respect was performed when he told them what was the condition at this time of the business before the Judicial Committee. From Returns dated the 17th June last he found that

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the appeals now waiting to be heard before the Committee were no less than 370. He found, also, from Returns that he had received, that there were at the present moment from Bengal appeals preparing for presentation which amounted to 150 more. Now, the appeals which came from India raised questions of the most complicated and interesting character. The law administered in India was most difficult to understand. There were two great codes or divisions of the law—the Hindoo and the Mussulman. The Hindoo had at least five different schools, and the Mussulman code was also exceedingly difficult to understand and to administer with certainty. But beyond this there was this peculiarity, that both the Hindoo and the Mahomedan laws were founded in great measure upon their religions and their religious usages, which the people adhered to be would not say with bigotry, but with such pertinacity that they would rather part with anything than have any of their religious usages in the smallest degree impaired or violated. Hence the administration of a law founded upon these religious institutions and observances was a most difficult duty, the neglect of which or the intrusting it to incompetent or inexperienced hands might influence the people in a manner the consequences of which might be most momentous. The peculiarity, too, of the Native mind was manifested in another particular. The people would have no confidence in our tribunal if it was constituted solely of Judges taken from their own Courts. He felt confident that no tribunal would give satisfaction in India unless it were partly constituted of those judicial authorities here to whom we and they alike were accustomed to look up to with respect. They desired to have Judges who had been among them, controlled and guided by the most eminent judicial authorities at home. Now, of these 350 appeals 267 were from India, including Ceylon and the Punjaub. Deducting one-fourth, both of the 267 and of the 150 others in preparation, as the proportion likely to be dropped or abandoned, 300 appeals were waiting to be heard from India alone. This was a serious prospect, for he had found, having some experience in hearing these appeals, that one appeal seldom lasted less than an entire day, many occupying longer; so
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that India alone would find occupation for a Court sitting throughout the judicial year of 140 days for more than two years to come. To these were to be added the appeals from other portions of our Colonial Empire, and those from the Ecclesiastical Courts, and from the Admiralty Courts. Now the appeals as they stood on the 17th June last from the rest of our colonial Empire amounted to about 90 in number, including therein the Admiralty and Ecclesiastical appeals. Of these 90 some of them might not take any great length of time; but the shortness of these would be abundantly compensated by the great length of time that would be required for determining ecclesiastical appeals, which had of late greatly increased in number. To this business, therefore, less than another year could not be assigned. Thus there were materials for the occupation of the Court for more than three years. The consequence of this block, and of the inability of the Court to deal with new appeals as promptly as the proper administration of justice would require was that a premium was given to every litigant who could afford to give security for £400 to enter an appeal in any case in which he might have been defeated, for the purpose of delaying or wearing out his adversary through the time and expense consumed in the litigation. The amount of property involved in these appeals was several millions in value. That this state of things should have arisen, or should be allowed to continue, was surely a national disgrace. There were, however, circumstances accidental and altogether beyond control which had, to some extent, led to the present state of business before the appellate tribunal. Illness had deprived the Judicial Committee of many efficient members, and death had lately deprived it of probably its most efficient Member, Lord Kingsdown. It was necessary to supply these losses by the appointment of Judges who would command the respect and willing submission of the various communities who looked up to the Judicial Committee for final decisions. It would be impossible to invoke the aid of this House in disposing of any of these arrears; for the Colonies would not endure to have their cases heard before this House—they would regard it as unconstitutional, for they had been accustomed to refer to the Prerogative of the Crown,

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and upon that they placed their reliance. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack had proposed the creation of a new appellate jurisdiction in connection with the High Court of Justice; but he (Lord Westbury) feared that Bill might not be successful in "another place." It proposed a new Court, consisting of the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice, four Justices of Appeals, four Lords Justices, and. an addition from time to time of three Puisne Judges from the other Courts. But a prompt remedy was required—because things had been in their present condition for a considerable time. He would press the Government to create at once those additional Judges of Appeal and add them to the Judicial Committee, which could then be divided into two sections, one sitting every day throughout the legal year, and attending exclusively to Indian business, the other devoting itself to the remaining business. This was the only way he saw of clearing off the arrears—he hoped, in two years. He must, however, warn his noble and learned Friend that, to find efficient men, he must offer much larger salaries than he proposed in his Bill. He must tell him, indeed, in vulgar phrase, that it would not do to have a "cheap and nasty" article for this purpose. The Court must consist of men commanding general respect and submission. He found by a former Return that the Judicial Committee had now before it an untouched arrear of cases for at least four years, one appeal only having been heard from a decree delivered in 1866, and none from decrees delivered in 1867, 1868, or 1869, and there was still a crop of appeals springing up which would require to be heard. On a question so closely affecting the national honour and the welfare of our colonial Empire, he hoped the Government would take prompt measures to meet an evil which was universally admitted. He had endeavoured to ascertain whether it was possible to meet it by redressing any mismanagement or maladministration in the local Courts, especially in India; but he saw no possibility of making any change there which would diminish the amount of appellate business. The Courts in India underwent a great change in 1862; but at Calcutta alone there were, at least, 16 Courts in the full discharge of their duty, from any of whose decrees appeals might be brought. Of
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late years, undoubtedly, care had been taken to improve the position of the Judges in India, and we might hope that hereafter there would be a greater disposition to be satisfied with their decisions; but this would be more than counterbalanced by the progress of commercial activity and wealth, especially in the Central Provinces, Oude, and the Punjaub, and the North-western Provinces, which would entail a corresponding amount of litigation. He saw no means of fulfilling our obligations in this matter, except by constituting two divisions, and enabling them to sit-throughout the legal year. At present, the Judicial Committee sat only a portion of the legal year, through its not being provided with a regular staff of Judges, and these arrears had consequently arisen. He trusted that his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) and the Government would not endeavour to meet the evil by patching and tinkering measures; but that they would make satisfactory provision not only for the present pressure, but for the future, in a manner becoming the honour of the Crown and dignity of the nation.
Moved, "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty praying that immediate provision may be made for the more rapid despatch, of business before the Judicial Committee."—(The Lord Westbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, their Lordships must feel greatly indebted to his noble and learned Friend, (Lord Westbury) for calling attention to a subject which, he assured him, had not escaped the attention of the Government—for it was a subject which it was desirable should be carefully and immediately considered. Early this year he was first apprised of the state of Indian appeals, which was shown to be most unsatisfactory, though, as he would point out presently, not exactly so bad as described by his noble and learned Friend. Before the present Notice appeared on the Paper he had considered the best mode of meeting the difficulties connected with the constitution of the Judicial Committee, and had given instructions for the preparation of a Bill which he hoped shortly to submit to their Lordships. Indeed, the same idea occurred to him as to his noble and learned Friend—that of strengthening the existing Judicial Committee, and di-

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viding it into two sections, which might be sitting at the same time. The constitution of the Judicial Committee, though by no means the least of the results of Lord Brougham's zeal in legal reforms, was not altogether that which practice had shown to be most desirable. It consisted of the Lord Chancellor and all the Judges of our higher Courts who were Privy Councillors—these being usually the chiefs of the three Common Law Courts—the Lords Justices of Appeal, the Master of the Bolls, and the Judges of the Divorce and Admiralty Courts if, as was usual, they were Privy Councillors. The consequence of this constitution of the Court was, that as most of these persons were engaged in other judicial duties, requiring all but their constant attendance, they had little leisure for attendance on the Judicial Committee, and it was therefore by no means easy to secure a quorum. To that section of Lord Brougham's Act which provided that retired English Judges, being Privy Councillors, should be members of the Committee they were indebted for some of its regular and able attendants. Of late years, however, from increasing age and infirmities some of these members had withdrawn from the working staff of the tribunal. The only means provided by the Act of reinforcing the Committee was the power given to the Crown by Sign Manual to appoint two members, and the two thus appointed had been very assiduous in attendance. One of them, Sir James Colvile, formerly Chief Justice of Calcutta, was a constant and eminent attendant, he having last year sat 74 days—19 days more than any other member. The other was Sir Joseph Napier, who attended 55 times. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Chelmsford) attended 44 times, though at the same time he was most constant in his attendance at the Appeal Sittings of this House. The limitation in the number of members to be appointed by the Crown was most unnecessary, and he thought it advisable that, in addition to retired Indian Judges, Her Majesty should have unlimited power to appoint any Judge who had performed eminent service, either in the Colonies or at home, to be members of the Committee. He also thought that power should be given to appoint distinguished barristers who had retired from practice. To this he looked forward as likely
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to furnish several eminent members. Perhaps the most eminent man who had sat on the Committee since its formation was Lord Kingsdown, who had never, theretofore, held any judicial position, and he would afford a satisfactory precedent, if any were required. Thus, by abolishing the restriction both as to number and as to the having previously filled a judicial position he saw no difficulty in constituting a Committee which could divide itself into two sections. Without desiring to deny or palliate the arrears in Indian cases, he felt it right to mention that they were largely attributable to the dilatoriness which characterized the proceedings in India, and the necessity of transcripts—namely, translations of all the evidence and documents used in the case—being sent over from India prior to the hearing of an appeal. This was always a source of difficulty and delay. An intelligent officer of the Judicial Committee had informed him that the non-arrival of the transcripts was one great cause of no appeal later than 1866 having been heard. The transcripts for the last two years had not yet arrived; and even when they did arrive there was considerable difficulty in forcing the cases on for hearing, for out of the 250 provided with transcripts only 37 were set down to be hoard, 11 of these being set down ex parte. This meant that only one party would appear at the hearing—a circumstance which would not necessarily make the proceedings short, as the Committee, when only one side appeared, were specially anxious to see that justice was done. He was bound, however, to add that a larger number would have been set down had not these 37 been already down, which seemed as many as were likely, to be got through in the current year. Still, there was wonderful dilatoriness in bringing these matters to a hearing. Considering that only 37 Indian and 20 other cases were set down for hearing, though the business in arrear was so large in amount, yet he did not regard it as alarming. He concurred with his noble and learned Friend's hope that steps would be taken in India which would diminish the appeals. He had learnt from Sir Barnes Peacock, an eminent Judge who had just returned from India, that at Calcutta only such passages of the evidence given and documents used in the lower Courts as

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the parties might desire to interpret came before the Supreme Court; so that, with such partial information, one could not wonder at appeals being numerous, and at the decisions of the Court being sometimes reversed. Considerable alteration and revision were, therefore, called for in India. Before he sat down he wished to make an explanation with regard to the position of business in the Court of Chancery as regarded the appointment of a new Lord Justice. In August last they had the misfortune to lose a Lord Justice of great eminence (Lord Justice Giffard); but at that time, having in contemplation the Bill which was now before the other House, he did not think it right that the office should be filled up while there was uncertainty as to what would be done as regarded the constitution of the new Courts; and there appeared no necessity for making an appointment, because at Michaelmas Term only 33 appeals remained to be heard, and they were of the most recent date. At the commencement of 1868, when the noble and learned Lord who preceded him on the "Woolsack (Lord Cairns) occupied the position of Lord Chancellor, there were arrears of 90 appeals; but, before the Long Vacation, he had disposed of 133 appeals, including appeals that had newly arisen, leaving only 33 undisposed of. It seemed to him, therefore, that, with the assistance of his Friend Lord Justice Giffard, he (the Lord Chancellor) would be quite able to keep down the appeals. He was happy to say that he had not been disappointed in that expectation; for, notwithstanding the illness of Lord Justice Giffard, coupled with other adverse circumstances, the appeals in arrear at the present moment were only 46 in number, the latest dating not quite four months ago—namely, the 9th of March last. Of course, as Lord Justice Giffard was not now able to attend, it had become necessary to appoint another Lord Justice, which carried with it an addition to the strength of the Judicial Committee. He had no doubt that, when the alterations had been made, to effect which a Bill had been prepared, they would be able to constitute such a Judicial Committee of the Privy Council as would keep down the arrears. Those arrears, although discreditable, were not so formidable as his noble and learned Friend (Lord Westbury) seemed
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to think; and he trusted their Lordships would not feel it necessary to concur in the Motion for a Commission of Inquiry.
LORD ROMILLYregretted to find, from the general tone of his noble and learned Friend's speech, that he proposed merely to patch up the existing system. In order to administer justice satisfactorily it was necessary that confidence should be felt equally in the primary Court and the appellate Court, and both must have a proper force of officers. Not one of the Judges on the Judicial Committee received a penny for his services. They could not expect to have an efficient tribunal unless there were Judges attached to it, whose duty it was to preside there, without attending any other Court, and in receipt of liberal salaries. Lord Kingsdown was an exceptional instance, for he had a large fortune and took a great interest in the administration of justice, and devoted himself to it for many years gratuitously; but the members of the Judicial Committee were mostly persons who attended by snatches from their ordinary engagements, or returned Judges who were anxious to go into retirement. He had himself been called on to attend for a few days every year; but he could only do so by taking some days which ought to be devoted to the preparation of judgments, or days when he ought to be sitting in his own Court. Sir James Colvile, of whom all must speak with praise, had been performing the functions of Chief Judge in India for many years, and had returned home, entitled to retire on his pension and reputation. Instead of doing so he gave his services to the hearing of Indian appeals gratuitously, and without any obligation of any kind to give his attendance. He (Lord Romilly) must say that it was not desirable to appoint to the Judicial Committee Judges who had retired because they had felt themselves too infirm to perform the duties of their office. They ought rather to put in young blood and new blood, and to pay well those whom they appointed. With respect to the appellate tribunal in India, the Supreme Court of Calcutta, it was a remarkable circumstance that, when a cause was referred to them on appeal, the documents which had been before the primary Court were not put in in full or translations, but only so much as the parties thought expedient. It was

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no wonder, then, that that Court, not having before it the evidence on which it could give a well-considered decision, should frequently fail in its decrees, and so give rise to the numerous appeals that came from India. That the Supreme Court had not the confidence of the public there was shown by the fact that, since 1862, the appeals from it had increased enormously, upwards of 600 having come from that Court alone in 7½ years; while, from the rest of India and in our other dependencies, there had been no material increase. This was not the fault of the Court or of the Judges, but because, as he had already shown, they had not the full circumstances of the case before them. Additional Judges were wanted there, and a greater power of obtaining documents. He concurred in the recommendation of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Westbury) that a Court should be constituted specially for these appeals, with proper salaries, with the addition of as many retired Judges as might be thought fit. Appeals were at present limited, on account of the delay and expense involved, to cases where the property in dispute exceeded £1,000 in value; so that whatever injustice might be done in minor cases there was no appeal. Security for costs to the extent of £400 had also to be given. With regard to the statement that there were only 37 appeals set down for hearing, if these were disposed of tomorrow the remaining 195, in which the transcripts had been sent over, would rapidly be brought on; but the parties did not think it necessary to employ counsel and deliver the brief until there was a prospect of an early hearing. He trusted that the Government would grapple with the evil in an energetic manner.
VISCOUNT HALIFAXsaid, he was sorry to hear that the delay in the Indian judicial business was so great. The circumstance had been attributed to the inadequate number of Judges in the High Court at Calcutta, and to the fact that the proper translations or transcripts of the cases before the local Indian Courts were not obtainable by the High Court. He was Secretary of State for India at the time the Act constituting that Court was passed, and all he could say was that the Judges of the High Court ought to have the power of sending for any documents which they might
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require. The only complaint made at the time was that the number of Judges appointed would be too large rather than too small.
LORD CAIRNSsaid, he rejoiced very much that this question had been brought before their Lordships, because there was great danger that some misapprehension might arise with reference to the state of business before the Judicial Committee. The business that came before that Court did not directly concern the subjects of the Queen at home, but those only who dwelt in India and the Colonies; and, as in most matters affecting those at a distance, we in England were apt to overlook the evils which other people suffered. Were our own Courts in the same state as those in which Indian cases were determined—if there were an arrear in one appellate Court of 350 cases—the force of public opinion would be so great as to compel the Government to take steps within 24 hours to remedy the evil; but there was danger of our treating lightly the grievances of those who had no voice in forming public opinion in this country, and in that way a feeling might be generated in the Colonies which we should have cause to regret. The matter was of the more importance because, owing to the line which our colonial policy had taken during late years—as to the propriety of which he should not then attempt to give an opinion—it had come to pass that one of the most real and tangible points of connection between the mother country and the Colonies remaining un-severed was the right of the Colonies to bring their judicial proceedings by way of review before Her Majesty in Council; and that was a right which was deeply appreciated by the Colonies at present, and which they would be sorry to surrender, but which they would be bound to surrender if they believed that it had become a mockery and a delusion. He had not the least doubt that the bare statistical fact as to the number of appeals in arrear, as stated by his noble and learned Friend the Lord. Chancellor, was strictly accurate; but the House must not deceive themselves about the matter. The question was not so much what the suitors in the appeals which had been mentioned felt or whether they were themselves chargeable with negligence and delay, but whether a much greater evil might not arise. The

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mischief was, that when the number of appeals in the Judicial Council amounted to 100 or 150, and it was known that in ordinary course the arrears could not be wiped out in less than a year or two, no matter by whose fault those arrears had accumulated, and that therefore there was a solid barrier interposed to the progress of further cases which might be coming forward—when once a certainty existed that no fresh appeal could be heard for some years a premium was offered to unsuccessful suitors in the Indian Courts to appeal, because, taking into consideration the high rate of interest in India, it became worth while, as a mere commercial speculation, to delay the payment of the money for two or three years by appealing to the Privy Council, even if it had to be paid eventually. With the amount of arrears that at present existed there was practically no appeal whatever from the Indian Courts to the Privy Council, and there could be no doubt that some of those who might think that they had good grounds for appealing chose to suffer wrong rather than subject themselves for so long to uncertainty, and that others who had been unsuccessful in litigation took the dishonest course he had referred to, because they knew they could by so doing delay payment for an indefinite period. He had heard that night for the first time the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council should be divided into two Courts, with the view of enabling the arrears to be wiped out. He should be glad if any means could be adopted by which the arrears might be cleared off; but he hoped that his noble and learned Friend would consider well, before he attempted to carry his suggestion into effect, whether that method was the best that could be proposed—whether that aim could not be much better accomplished by strengthening the Judicial Committee. In his opinion there was great danger of creating by that means two weak Courts in the place of one strong tribunal. It must also be borne in mind that the number of counsel who had devoted themselves to the study of Indian law before the Privy Council was extremely limited, and that therefore great mischief might result from the division of the business, because counsel would be unable to be in two places at once.
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He cordially agreed with the remark that it would be a great evil if the decisions of the Privy Council came to be looked upon with less respect than they now obtained; and therefore he ventured to put it to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and to Her Majesty's Government, whether it would not be a more desirable course, instead of dividing the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council into two branches, if they were to strengthen the existing tribunal as much as they could by making it worth the while of those who now formed it to sit constantly like any other Court, instead of merely sitting as they now did for a few weeks in each year. He could only reiterate what had been said of the retired Indian Judges. Those public men, like Sir James Colvile and Sir Lawrence Peel, who had earned hardly their very moderate pensions by their service in India, had a perfect right to say that they had returned home to this country after years of labour for rest and case, and that they did not choose to resume their labours in the Privy Council. They were, therefore, entitled to the highest praise and to the thanks of the country for serving on the Judicial Committee without any kind of compensation being awarded them. But by strengthening the Judicial Committee by such men as these, and by giving salaries adequate to induce unintermitting diligence he believed they might clear off all these arrears in two years.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved that at the time when the late Lord Brougham was turning the subject of the appellate jurisdiction for India in his mind, he had urged upon him the necessity for having a paid Court of Appeal. In answer to that suggestion, Lord Brougham, alluding to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, said—"What will Althorp say? He will never consent to stand £15,000 or £20,000 a year to pay the members of the Privy Council. The appellate Court must be framed upon the model of the House of Lords, the Judges in which are volunteers; and the Court must be constituted out of the retired Judges, retired Chancellors, and retired Indian Judges," as had actually been the case. He urged upon his brother that he greatly distrusted the value of eleemosynary work, which was never satisfactory. Answering his suggestions on this point, his

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brother said—"We will give it a trial. If afterwards the business increases, it will then be time to come to Parliament and ask it to pay the Judges." In his opinion the time had now arrived when that change had become necessary, and he trusted that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would take the matter into his consideration.
LORD WESTBURYsaid, he was not satisfied with what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack; he wanted his noble and learned Friend to say something definite, to give him a distinct promise that immediate action would be taken in this matter. Would his noble and learned Friend engage to bring forward a Bill to remove the obstacles he had pointed out? It was never too late to provide means for the administration of justice; but if the only answer now made to suitors having cases hung up in Court was—"Wait patiently," their reply would be—"We have waited patiently for four years." He should be very sorry to do anything that would look like opposition to Her Majesty's Government; but, unless he received more definite promise of immediate action on their part, he must frankly say he should be compelled to trouble their Lordships to divide for the purpose of ascertaining who were persuaded of the necessity, the obligation, and the duty of providing more effectually for the administration of justice. The subject had been deferred too long, and it was high time that something should be done of a definite character. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack said there were only 37 appeals waiting for hearing, and that that number was not very formidable. He begged to point out that his noble and learned Friend appeared to be under a misapprehension, inasmuch as he had not taken into account the fact that there were as many as 250 appeals from India alone, or at any rate the transcripts of the records for that number of cases had already been transmitted, and were now lying at the office in readiness for hearing. The number on the paper was 37; but solicitors would not enter for hearing appeals which there was no probability of getting hoard, because when they did so large sums of money had to be paid with briefs, and so forth. The parties to no fewer than 260 appeals were at present debarred from obtaining
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justice. The evil was a crying one, and it ought not to be trifled with or delayed. He did not accuse his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack of either trifling with or delaying it; but he thought the Government ought to give a promise of immediate relief. With regard to the remarks of his noble and learned Friend opposite, he wished to observe that his suggestion for a division of the Court was only a temporary expedient, intended to last until the arrears were cleared of. He proposed that there should be a sub-division, and that the Indian appeals should be taken by one sub-division. For that there was at present sufficient judicial power, and there was also a sufficient number of barristers ready and willing to attend the Court. Meanwhile he would be content with a definite promise from the Government, and in that case would not ask their Lordships to divide upon the question.
LORD DENMANsaid, that it was very desirable that Her Majesty should have the power of increasing the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and if it were necessary, he felt sure, that in "another place," a sufficient income would be found for those who sat upon appeals; but he thought, that as in the case of retired Ministers, those who were to be paid should declare that their private income was not sufficient to enable them to bear the expenses of their station. The first Earl of Eldon, in 1823 as to other appeals, had said, that in the case of any future Chancellor—although the retiring pension was then only £4,000 a year—the Minister should make his attendance a condition of his pension; but that noble Earl retired at the age of 76, and for 11 years never attended any case of appeal in the House of Lords. He (Lord Denman) believed it was the duty of the Lord President of the Council to constitute a sufficient Court of Appeal. He had been told by Sir Barnes Peacock, that before the fusion of the Native Court with the Supreme Court, original causes were four years in being heard, but that latterly only three weeks elapsed between the commencement and the decision—the delay, therefore, was only in the Court of Appeal. With regard to the length of the documents they were, probably copied at greater length for the Court of Appeal, because, being fully understood in the Supreme

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Court, it was not needful to transcribe them at great length. He thought that with regard to the Members of the Committee, honour was far better than profit.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was anxious to explain that he had given what he intended to be understood as a promise on the part of the Government. He had said that in a few days he would introduce a Bill by which they proposed to remedy the evil. That Bill was in course of preparation; and, such being the case, he thought it would hardly be necessary for him to enter into the details of the measure at present. He begged to explain also that, in the division of business, his idea was not to have two divisions of the Court, both hearing Indian appeals. His idea was to have one division hearing appeals from India, the other appeals from the Admiralty and Ecclesiastical Courts, or any other appeals that might come before the Committee. The same set of counsel did not usually attend to those two classes of cases. He did not think he had shown himself remiss in this matter. He had not had the honour of holding his present Office four years, and he was not aware that the subject had been mooted by any of his predecessors on the Woolsack.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, certain facts had come before him which led him to believe that steps might be taken which would have the effect of limiting the number of appeals from India. Accordingly, he had communicated with the Government of India with the view of effecting that object. He confessed that he was quite unable to understand why the Supreme Court of Calcutta could not have the same information before it as that furnished to the Privy Council; nor could he see how similar decisions could be expected on two different sets of documents. He believed the only difficulty in the way of supplying the Supreme Court with all the documents arose from the expense of translating documents used before the district Courts.
LORD WESTBURYsaid, that after the statement of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack he would not press his Motion.
Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ACT REPEAL BILL—(No. 105.)
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ACT REPEAL BILL—(No. 105.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  On Question, That the Preamble be agreed to,
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, that in consequence of the legislation of last year with reference to the Irish Church, the Government had made a promise of proposing legislation on the subject of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act. He admitted that, as the Irish Church had ceased to be an Established Church, it was absolutely necessary that something should be done in this matter; but, if it had not been for the Act of last year, it would have been better to leave the Ecclesiastical Titles Act alone. As, however, it was necessary to do something, he did not object to its being done. But he had a proposition to make in connection with the Bill which he hoped their Lordships would not think an unreasonable one. If they were to repeal the whole of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, without carefully explaining that the declaration contained in it, either inferentially or positively, as to the state of the common and general law of England were not meant to be departed from, they might give rise to serious misapprehension out-of-doors, where it might be thought that Parliament had changed its mind with regard to the truth and propriety of those declarations. In repealing the Penalty Clauses of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, therefore, they ought to be very cautious not to fall into that danger, and to show on the face of their legislation that the declaration which accompanied those penalties in that Act were well founded and still continued in full force. He wished to preserve all that was valuable in the substance of the declaration embodied in that Act, and while removing penalties imposed on the use of ecclesiastical titles which were intended merely as titles of office, and not as titles of authority, honour, or dignity, still to maintain the established law of this country, which was to the effect that all titles of dignity, honour, and authority flowed from the Sovereign alone, and that it was not in the power of any person other than the Sovereign of these realms to confer such titles.
  Amendment moved, in page 1, line 5, to leave out from "certain" to "although" in line 28, and insert—
  "Enactments were made prohibiting under penalties the assumption of the title of archbishop or bishop of a pretended province or diocese, or archbishop or bishop of a city, place, or territory, or dean of any pretended deanery in England or Ireland not being the see, province, or diocese of an archbishop or bishop, or deanery of any dean recognized by law; and whereas no ecclesiastical title of honour or dignity derived from any see, province, diocese, or deanery, or from any city, place, or territory within this realm can be validly created, assumed, or used, nor can any see, province, diocese, or deanery be created, nor any coercive power or pre-eminence in reference thereto be conferred otherwise than under the authority and by the favour of her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and according to the laws of this realm; and any title of honour or dignity derived from any see, province, diocese, or deanery, or from any city, place, or territory within this realm attempted to be created, assumed, or used, and any see, province, diocese, or deanery attempted to be created, and any coercive power or pre-eminence in reference thereto attempted to be conferred under colour of any alleged authority out of this realm, or of any alleged authority within this realm, not being the authority of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and of the laws of this realm, is and ought to be taken to be unlawful and void; and it is expedient to substitute a declaration to that effect for the Act fourteen and fifteen Victoria, chapter sixty, in order that the use by ministers of religion of various denominations of designations regarded as titles of office merely."—(The Lord Cairns).
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that the object of the Government, in preparing the Bill, was precisely in accordance with what had just been stated by the noble and learned Lord opposite; and he did not think they should have any occasion to quarrel about the words used for carrying out that object. In repealing the penalties of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act they ought not to invalidate the declarations made in that Act, as to the law of the land at the time when it was passed: he should, however, feel some reluctance in consenting to the re-enactment of those declarations in a somewhat stronger form than the necessity of the case perhaps required, and he should prefer the form in which it was done in the Bill. He was, however, content to accept the words of the Amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord in the Preamble, but not those he proposed to insert in the enacting part of the Bill. Instead of the word "unlawful" in the first clause, as proposed by the noble and learned Lord, he thought it would be better to substitute
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  "invalid, void, and of no effect to all intents and purposes."
  The Preamble was then amended by inserting instead of "unlawful and void" the words "invalid, void, and of no effect" and agreed to.
  Then the Clauses 1 and 2 struck out, and clauses as proposed by the Lord Cairns amended and agreed to:—
  "1. That no ecclesiastical title of honour or dignity derived from any see, province, diocese, or deanery, or from any city, place, or territory within this realm, can be validly created, assumed, or used, nor can any see, province, diocese, or deanery be created, nor can any coercive power or pre-eminence be conferred in respect thereto, otherwise than under the authority and by the favour of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and according to the laws of this realm; and any title of honour or dignity derived from any see, province, diocese, or deanery, or from any city, place, or territory within this realm attempted to be created, assumed, or used; and any see, province, diocese, or deanery attempted to be created, and any coercive power or pre-eminence in reference thereto attempted to be conferred by or under colour of any alleged authority out of this realm or any alleged authority within this realm, not being the authority of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, and of the laws of this realm, is and ought to be taken to be unlawful and void.
  "2. That the said Act of the Session of Parliament held in the 14th and 15th years of the reign of Her Majesty, cap. 60, shall be and the same is hereby repealed."
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next: and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 175.)

IRELAND—DISTURBANCES AT CORK.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether the statements which had appeared in the public prints concerning the state of the city of Cork are correct; and whether the measures taken by the authorities have proved sufficient to secure the protection of the persons and property of the inhabitants?
  EARL SPENCERsaid, it was true that during the last few days some disturbances had broken out in the city of Cork; but he did not think his noble Friend could expect from him any detailed account of what had taken place. He could simply state that a strike occurred among the tailors of that city, and that while considerable crowds of the unemployed paraded the city, the opportunity was seized by the evil-dis-

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  posed in the place to commit acts of riot. He was happy to say that the riots had now ceased. The Irish Government, on hearing the report of the disturbances, sent down a large increase of constabulary to aid the local force. On the 27th and. 28th ultimo, as many as 150 extra constabulary were despatched to Cork: and he had no doubt that the force of constabulary, combined with the military stationed in the place, would be amply sufficient to meet any emergency which might arise. He had received a telegram that day from Cork, stating that the city was quiet, that the people on strike were returning to work, that the excitement was subsiding, and that every precaution had been taken to stop intimidation and prevent disorder. He need not assure his noble Friend and the House that the Irish Government would use every effort to protect property and restore tranquillity and order.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that no blame could be thrown on the Irish Government for the disturbances in Cork; but all accounts, both private and public, showed that the Mayor of that city, who was the principal authority there, was greatly to blame. It would be well, as the municipal authorities of that town, on more than one occasion, seemed to have been Sadly deficient in repressing disorder, that they should know that they could be proceeded against by indictment for default in the execution of their duty. The law had been expressly laid down by the Judges of the land in the case of the Bristol riots, which were much more formidable than any that had occurred in Cork, that proceedings could be taken by indictment or information in the King's Bench against the Mayor, if he had not shown proper activity in the performance of the duty he had assumed.

PASSENGERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to authorize the carriage of Naval and Military Stores in passenger ships—Was presented by The Earl GRANVILLE; read 1a. (No. 176)
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.