§ House in Committee (according to Order).
§ Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Householders' schedules to be left at dwelling houses. Occupiers to fill up the schedules and sign and deliver them to the enumerator. Penalty for neglect).
§ THE EARL OF HARROWBYmoved to insert the words "religious profession," with the object of obtaining what was known as a "religious Census." The course that had been taken in the Census of 1851 and 1861 had given rise to much 1400 objection on the part of some religious parties; but since 1860 there had been a change of feeling as was evidenced by the fact that the representative bodies of Scotch Presbyterians, which formerly objected to a religious Census, had this year memoralized the Government in its favour. That being so, it might be presumed that the Nonconformists of England did not entertain the strong objections they had formerly expressed to the taking of a religious Census; indeed, it was difficult to see what objection they could entertain, and why that which was thought good for Ireland should not be as good for Scotland and for England. A religious Census was taken in almost every country of Europe—the exceptions being Spain, which could hardly be held up as an example in anything, and Holland, whose exceptional example could hardly be considered sufficient to influence us. The taking of a religious Census was approved by a meeting of statisticians from every part of Europe, held at Brussels; and the Statistical Society of this country, in the interests of statistical science, wished to have Returns of industrial employments and religious professions. These Returns were not sought with any religious or political object, but in the interest of the whole community. Wishing their Lordships to confer upon England that which was adopted for Ireland, and which he understood was to be adopted for Scotland, he had given notice of the Amendment he now begged to move—
§ Amendment moved, page 2, line 4, after ("condition") to insert ("religious profession"). — (The Earl of Harrowby.)
THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, it was not the intention of the Home Secretary to propose the taking of a religious Census for Scotland, because, since the adoption of the memorials referred to, the Home Office had been flooded with others, from United Presbyterians and from members of other Churches, which proved that a large number of Scotchmen were against the taking of such a Census. The Government felt bound to object to this Amendment, on the ground that it would be impossible to obtain accurate Returns; and unless the Returns were really accurate, they would be worse than useless, and would really mislead public opinion. It seemed to be admit- 1401 ted on all hands that a religious Census could not be made compulsory, and that it would be impossible to obtain Returns from the inhabitants of the large towns of this country, for, as many of them did not profess any religion at all, they could not subscribe themselves as belonging to particular Churches. As to there having been no difficulty experienced in Ireland, there was a great distinction between that country and this, because the people of Ireland belonged mainly to three large Churches, and all other denominations were comparatively small. As Ireland was almost wholly agricultural, statistics were much more easily obtained than they could be in large towns of England, where a house-to-house inquiry could hardly be instituted with satisfaction, or elicit the desired facts in a manner that would be generally approved. In addition to the immense difficulty of obtaining accurate Returns on this subject, it would, in the interests of the Church of England, be somewhat dangerous to institute an inquiry of this nature. It would be unwise to encourage among the various sects on one particular day a spirit of what he might term unwholesome competition, putting pressure upon the members of their congregations, and urging them to subscribe themselves as members of a particular denomination. He asked their Lordships, therefore, to consider carefully whether such a Census would not be injurious to the Church as a national institution. These Returns must, for their accuracy and value, depend on the willingness of the people to supply them, and it would be inexpedient to ask for facts which the people were unwilling to furnish. A religious Census was objectionable to large portions of the people; it was impossible to make such a Census without the co-operation of the people, and, therefore, it was important not to make the Census unpopular. On these grounds he hoped their Lordships would not accept the Amendment of the noble Earl.
§ LORD CAIRNSsaid, he understood that in the other House an Amendment similar to that of his noble Friend was moved, and no Member of the Government nor any other person offered any answer to the speech of his right hon. Friend (Dr. Ball) who made the proposal. He thought the same course might have been conveniently followed here, for 1402 their Lordships were hardly likely to be convinced by any of the arguments just used by the noble Earl (the Earl of Morley). But the distinction made between this country and Ireland, if applicable at all, was only one of degree. They had been told that a religious Census was possible in Ireland, because there were only three great religious denominations in that country—Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, and Protestants. Now, in the first place, he was rather surprised to hear that Presbyterians were not Protestants; hitherto he had always been under the impression that they were. But, in the next place, Ireland contained every sect and denomination which existed in England, and, if there were any objection on the part of Wesleyans or Nonconformists here, the same objection must apply in Ireland; it was a question of numbers, and not of principle. Nor did he see what greater facility there was for obtaining such statistics because Ireland was chiefly an agricultural country. No doubt, in large towns, there would be a greater number of houses to visit; but then in towns the heads of families must be appealed to just as in the country; and if the house was occupied by a large number of persons, the head of the house would get at their religion just as he got at their age, by obtaining the information from each inmate. It was a gratuitous assertion, then, to say that such a Census would fail. They were, in fact, unwilling to bring the subject under the compulsory clauses of the Bill—it had never been tried, and they did not know that it would fail. The Church of England desired a religious Census; and he remembered that in the other House, in 1860, Mr. Monsell, on the part of the Roman Catholics, said they wished for one. He had never heard any objections raised by Jews or members of the Society of Friends. If the statistics merely referred to members of these denominations it would be a great step in advance, and by a process of exhaustion they would, at any rate, know the maximum number of those who refused to answer as to their religious profession. But then the noble Earl (the Earl of Morley) used a singular argument—that, in the interests of the Church, it would not be well to encourage an unwholesome competition. About what? Were corrupt practices likely to be resorted to in order 1403 to induce persons to register themselves as members of a particular denomination? The noble Earl said that they might find the clergyman or minister urging his flock so to declare themselves. Well, why not? What harm would thereby be done? Such were the arguments by which the opposition to this Amendment were supported! He hoped their Lordships would conclude that it was unworthy of a country like this to be without the information which was possessed by nearly all other civilized nations.
THE BISHOP OF EXETER, in the interests of the Church of England, deprecated the insertion of those words in the clause. He did not sympathize with the Nonconformists in some of the objections they had taken to a religious Census; but looking on the Church of England not as the Church of a sect but as the Church of the nation, he thought it was very much to be deprecated that any opportunity should be taken to mark by any deeper or broader line the divisions which unhappily separated Englishmen on religious questions. It was a very serious evil that when there was a considerable number of our fellow-countrymen who did not wish distinctly to declare themselves either on one side or the other they should be called on to take a side, and by so doing to commit themselves either way. It was much more for the interests of the Church of England that these divisions should be forgotten, where forgetfulness of them was possible; that people should be allowed not to make up their minds definitely whether they would declare themselves on one side or the other; that, if it satisfied their own consciences, they should still be members of the Church of England, though, if asked the question, they might be hardly able to say whether they were or not. It was one of the characteristics of the Church of England that it should be beyond all other denominations the most tolerant body of Christians to be found anywhere. A member of the Church of England was asked no question, as in some denominations, about his religious profession. He joined in the worship of the Church, and no one interfered with his private opinions; there was no such thing as personal examination into a man's thoughts and views. In all things the Church of England showed a spirit of the widest 1404 comprehension. He deprecated very much the adoption of any course which would tend to draw a line of demarcation between the Church of England and the English nation, and he therefore hoped their Lordships would not give their assent to the Amendment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he wished, in the first place, to correct an error into which the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had fallen. They did not wish to force the members of these denominations to state what religion they were of, but only to ascertain the number of those who were willing to tell them. He could not in the least assent to the argument by which the right rev. Prelate attempted to enforce his views. They were told the Church of England was not the Church of any particular sect, but the Church of the whole nation—by which they were to understand that the Church of England included every Jew, infidel, or other religionist, who might dwell within the kingdom. He would like to know from the right rev. Prelate how often they were allowed to forget the differences and distinctions of which he spoke? Had they not been made the ground of legislation, taking from the Church of England privileges, property, and rights which she had enjoyed for centuries? And what had been the great battle of this year? Were they allowed to forget these unhappy divisions? Had they not on the contrary, been engaged in the most anxious and careful discussions, in order to discover a form of words that should meet the conscientious scruples of those who did not hesitate to assure them that they represented half the nation, and on that account they had been engaged in legislation which had the effect of depriving the Church of England of her privileges? These matters had become of Parliamentary importance, and were brought forward as grounds of vast and far-reaching changes. But whenever numbers taken by a fallacious means were challenged the Dissenters always shrank from having them put to the test, because they knew that a correct test would abridge their pretensions. When the Nonconformists alone resisted this inquiry they could only come to one conclusion—that they had very good grounds for their conduct. Those who did not desire the truth to be known were generally persons to whom 1405 the truth would be disagreeable. Very respectable ladies would be exceedingly unwilling to inform the world what their ages were; but they did not shrink from pressing them; and if these reverend persons refused, it was because they knew that if the fact were known it would be disadvantageous to them. He believed the case of the Dissenters was very much like ladies of a certain age. He had heard nothing in the speech of the right rev. Prelate to induce him to be less anxious for the passing of this Amendment. On the contrary, he should be desirous to show clearly and before the world who was of the Church of England and who was not, and to give no encouragement to that baneful doctrine of which the right rev. Prelate was so fond—that anybody, no matter what were his errors, if he was geographically situated in England must belong to the Church of England.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he quite concurred with the remarks of the late Sir George Lewis that the subject under discussion was one with respect to which people did not reason—it was with them a matter of feeling; and he did not think the remarks of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) would tend to make it less so, because he held the ascertaining of the numbers of the various religious sects as a sort of battle-flag, to be made a matter of controversy. He did not ascribe the fooling of Dissenters on the point to the vexation which they would experience at finding they were outnumbered, but rather to the objection which many had to registering themselves once for all as not belonging to the Established Church. There were many persons who, though attending the Church of England, would not care to register themselves at all. He might mention that when on one occasion he moved a clause in the House of Commons to exempt from Church rates those who chose to declare themselves as being separated from the Church on conscientious grounds, the late Sir Robert Peel objected to requiting any person to assort that he belonged to a particular faith, and thus, as it were, drawing a line of demarcation between particular sects. It might happen, too, that if a religious Census were called for, the head of a family might feel it to be his duty, when compelled to do so, to register himself as a Dissenter, and his child- 1406 ren would naturally follow his example, although they might previously have attended the services of the Church of England; and there were many members of Dissenting families who at present attend the Church, who, if they were asked, would describe themselves as Wesleyans or Baptists, as the case might be. Many, again, would put themselves down under a class to which they did not really belong. That was a state of things which he thought was very undesirable should come to pass. He was of opinion that it would be impossible to obtain a correct religious Census at present, and he hoped, therefore, their Lordships would not assent to the Amendment, but would wait for the time when feeling on the subject should give way to reason.
§ LORD CAIRNSpointed out that under the Amendment there would be no compulsion, and that the real question was whether in the schedules left at the different houses, there should or should not be a column headed "Religious Profession." His noble and learned Friend he might add, seemed to him to be somewhat inconsistent in stating his belief that an accurate religious Census could not be obtained, and yet intimating it to be his opinion that we might have such a Census before long.
§ On Question?—Their Lordships divided:—Contents 43; Not-Contents 39: Majority 4.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ The Report of the Amendment to be received on Thursday next.
§ House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.