Lords Sitting of 1 August 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Militia Acts Amendment* (266); Brokers (City of London)* (268).
Second Reading—Shipping Dues Exemption Act (1867) Amendment* (233); Local Government Supplemental (No. 2)* (229); Sewage Utilization Supplemental* (230); Vestries (Isle of Man)* (232); Factories and Workshops* (247); Extradition (211); Turnpike Acts Continuance* (252); Sanitary Act (1866) Amendment* (253); Census* (264); Petroleum* (265).
Committee—Army Enlistment (236–269); Pier and Harbour Order Confirmation (No. 3) (228).
Committee—Report—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (No. 2)* (227).
Report—Clerical Disabilities* (254); Elementary Education (262–270); Telegraph Acts Extension* (206).
Third Reading—Magistrates, &c. Election (Scotland)* (240); Annuity Tax Abolition (Edinburgh and Montrose, &c.) Act (1860) Amendment* (231); Sheriffs (Scotland) Act (1853) Amendment, &c. * (257), and passed.
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (£9,000,000) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 31]; Customs and Inland Revenue [33 & 34 Vict. c. 32]; Exchequer Bonds (£1,300,000) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 41]; Sugar Duties (Isle of Man) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 43]; Stamp Duty on Leases [33 & 34 Vict, c. 44]; Dividends and Stock [33 & 34 Vict. c. 47]; Salmon Acts Amendment [33 & 34 Vict. c. 33]; Charitable Funds Investment [33 & 34 Vict. c. 34]; Rents and Periodical Payments [33 & 34 Vict c. 35]; Ecclesiastical Patronage Transfer [33 & 34 Vict. c. 39]; Magistrates in populous Places (Scotland) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 37]; Sligo and Cashed Disfranchisement [33 & 34 Vict. c. 38]; Cattle Disease (Ireland) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 36]; New Zealand (Guarantee of Loan) [33 & 34 Vict. c. 40]; Petty Customs (Scotland) Abolition [33 & 34 Vict. c. 42]; Public Health (Scotland) Supplemental [33 & 34 Vict. c. cxxxii.]; Liverpool Admiralty District Registrar [33 & 34 Vict. C. 45]; Irish Land [33 & 34 Vict. c. 46].

ARMY ENLISTMENT BILL.—(No. 236.)
(The Lord Northbrook.)
ARMY ENLISTMENT BILL.—(No. 236.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Terms of enlistment).
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDinquired whether the present system of enlistment would be continued, or whether the power of the Secretary of State to fix the term for which men were to be permitted to enlist would exist alongside

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  of that system? He feared that the class of men from whom recruits were taken would not be able to understand these nice distinctions as to the period of enlistment. The 1st sub-section fixed 12 years as the term of enlistment; but provided that there must be a re-enlistment and 21 years' service; while the 2nd sub-section empowered the Secretary for War to decide the period of service for which a man might re-enlist, and that period might be as short as three years. There was no period at which a clearer understanding on this matter was more necessary than at present, for, as the Royal Commission on recruiting had pointed out, wars would probably be sudden and short, so that a country should be prepared for any contingency or combination. The option given to the Secretary of State by the 8th clause, to permit enlistment for particular regiments, he should wish to see converted into a compulsory provision, for esprit de corps made particular regiments popular in particular districts, and without such a provision recruiting would be discouraged.
  LORD NORTHBROOKexplained that the present system of recruiting, by which a man enlisted for 12 and might serve 21 years, would be maintained in its entirety. The 9th clause allowed men to serve for such further period as would make up a total continuous period of 21 years.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Change of service).
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEobjected to the Secretary of State having power to order a soldier out of the Army after three years' service.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, this could only be done with the soldier's consent. The clause enabled a soldier to extend the six years' Army service for which he had enlisted to 12 years, and it empowered the Secretary of State to allow men to go into the Reserve, instead of being discharged.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 5 agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Enlistment for general service).
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, he strongly objected to only three years' service; but he understood the object of the clause to be to allow these men, in
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  the event of a reduction of the force or some other contingency, to go into the Reserve without being discharged.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, general regulations would at once be issued, pointing out the particular regiments in which men might enlist. The object of the Government was to obtain men for general service, and at the same time maintain the regimental system. Their wish was to get as many recruits as they could, and it was necessary that some discretion should be allowed them.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsuggested that the 8th clause should, for the sake of clearness, be added to the 6th.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clauses 7 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
  EARL DE LA WARRproposed a new clause, the object of which was to provide against a contingency which was not effectually covered by any provision of the Bill—namely, to give power to retain the service of time-expired soldiers during war with any foreign Power. No such power was given either in the Enlistment Bill of 1847 or in that of 1857. This power would only apply to soldiers enlisted after the passing of the Bill, and he believed the first-class Army Reserve would come within its scope, without any undue straining of the terms of their engagement. He wished to know whether there would be power to enlist men for three years without the condition of serving in the Reserve?
  LORD NORTHBROOKreplied in the affirmative, the Duke of Wellington having always held that a provision limiting the period of service authorized enlistments for any shorter term. He would, however, take a legal opinion on the point, and if necessary amend the Bill in that sense. He thought it would be better if the power conferred by his noble and gallant Friend's clause were made an addition to Clause 12.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked what arrangement would be made with regard to the Reserve?
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, he could not give a precise answer at present. Through the instrumentality of the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge) the opinions of officers had been collected as to the reasons which deterred

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  men from joining the Reserve. These were found to be two—first, the insufficiency of the pay, which had now been doubled; and, secondly, the fear of too great an interference with their ordinary pursuits. Care would therefore be taken as to the latter point.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEremarked that the best means of securing efficiency and, at the same time, of avoiding too great an interference with the ordinary occupations of the men was a difficult question, which would be duly considered by the Secretary of State and himself. He was not prepared at present to say what arrangement would be satisfactory.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 269.)

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL.
(The Lord President.)
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL.

  (NO. 262.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  EARL RUSSELLasked the noble Earl the Lord President to explain the powers of the Department with reference to the formation of school Boards?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the powers given by the Bill to the Educational Commissioners of the Privy Council with regard to school Boards were two-fold. In the first place, the Education Department might dissolve the Board and order a new election, or they might declare a Board in default, and appoint another Board, and appoint others to do the work; but the Department could not take those steps unless the Board had done something which constituted neglect or default of duty. He desired to take this opportunity of saying a word on a point raised the other night, when the Bill was in Committee, by a right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Carlisle), who considered there was some danger if the last words in sub-section 1 were retained in the 7th clause, that children might absent themselves on every Saint's day in the Calendar. The latter part of the sub-section which related to attendance at religious instruction as it stands in the Bill read thus—
  "Or to attend the school on any day or occasion set apart for religious observance by the religious body to which his parents belong."
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  He proposed to remedy the danger by substituting the word "exclusively" for "or occasion."
  Amendment agreed to.
  LORD REDESDALEmoved an Amendment in Clause 7, by substituting for the words, "Any scholar may be withdrawn by his parent," the words, "the parent of any scholar may require that he shall be withdrawn," and by inserting after the word "instruction," the words, "and be separately employed in some other work."
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he preferred the clause as it stood. The principle was to give perfect freedom of withdrawal and perfect freedom of teaching.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPasked how the master was to know that a scholar was withdrawn by his parent?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPON: By making inquiry of the parent.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that that would throw upon the master the onus of ascertaining whether the statements of a scholar were true, and would involve his running about all over the parish.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there was nothing new in that. It had to be done at present, for boys frequently absented themselves without their parents' knowledge, and were only detected by the inquiries made by the schoolmaster of their parents.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, the question was whether the master should not have statutory protection against responsibility for boys playing truant?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, there would be no withdrawal from the school except so far as was necessary to withdraw a child from religious teaching.
  LORD REDESDALEthought that any Judge reading the words of the clause would interpret them as authorizing the parent to withdraw the child altogether.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDasked whether, supposing the school met at 9 o'clock, and the religious teaching lasted from 9 to 10, a parent would be allowed to keep his child away during that period?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, that must depend on circumstances, If it were possible to carry on some other

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  kind of teaching during this period, the children, who would otherwise be withdrawn, would he supposed be required to attend the teaching; but if the room were too small or if, from other circumstances, such an arrangement could not be carried out, the children would be withdrawn from the school while religious instruction was being given. He should be perfectly satisfied to leave the words in the clause to the interpretation of the noble and learned Lord.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that, unfortunately, his noble and learned Friend could not be in every school in the kingdom to give such an interpretation. The words were very vague and obscure.
  VISCOUNT HALIFAXthought their Lordships were creating difficulties where none existed. The schoolmasters had found no practical difficulty in working the Time Table Conscience Clause.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 71 (Attendance of child at school).
  LORD COLCHESTERproposed an Amendment which would prevent the principle of compulsion from being carried out against the wishes of two-thirds of the ratepayers. He objected to having the principle enforced in a district which might be unwilling to receive it.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he was unable to accept the Amendment, as it would render the clause altogether inoperative.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYthought there would be very great danger in working the new system of compulsion. In the rural districts the farmers would oppose it; and even if they were willing to carry it out the justices would refuse to convict—at all events, he should. In the large towns, however, the case would be different, and as we were introducing a principle which was absolutely new, we ought to take the precaution of enacting that the school Board should vote in favour of compulsion by a majority of two-thirds. He should, therefore, support the Amendment.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORD, on the other hand, hoped their Lordships would not diminish the small powers of compulsion given by the Bill.
  Amendment negatived.
  Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 270.)

EXTRADITION BILL—(No. 211.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
EXTRADITION BILL—(No. 211.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its object was to enable effect to be given to conventions with foreign countries relating to the surrender of criminals, other than political offenders, by Order in Council, without the necessity of an Act of Parliament being passed authorizing them to be put in force. Under the terms of the Bill the conventions would have to be laid before Parliament for a certain time before they could be enforced.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ARMY—ISSUE OF BREECH-LOADERS TO MILITIA AND VOLUNTEERS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAMrose to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, When it was intended to issue breech-loaders to the Militia and Volunteers? There were 51 regiments of the former force, and all the latter, who were without them. In this country it was never desired to maintain a large standing army; but in recent times it had been thought necessary to have as Reserve Forces the Militia and Volunteers, and he believed it must be the wish of the country to see them placed in such a position that they could adequately meet any emergency that might arise. Those branches of the services, he submitted, were not in such an efficient position as they ought to be; while the Secretary for War's statement at the Mansion House that the Army in its present condition would challenge comparison with any former time was not just, because it did not look to a proper standard of efficiency. The standard by which we should test the efficiency of our military service was not the standard of former times, but that which existed in the great military nations on the Continent. He rejoiced to hear that

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  the Army was to be placed in an efficient state, and he desired that the Militia and Volunteers should be put on the same footing. When the forces of this country were enumerated, the Militia and Volunteers were always included in the estimate of the total strength; but he submitted that as long as there were 51 regiments of Militia and the whole body of Volunteers who were not armed with the best possible weapons, they might be struck off the list of available forces, because they could not contend on anything like equal terms if any emergency arose to call them out. He was told that there were only 30,000 breech-loaders now in store, but he did not credit that statement; and if the Government had, as he supposed, a much larger number in hand, why did they not at once supply those weapons to the Reserve Forces? Whether war or peace prevailed, it was only common sense that these forces should be supplied with the best arms, and should be enabled to become efficient in the use of them.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the noble Earl (the Earl of Feversham) was quite right in supposing that the statement as to there being only 30,000 Snider rifles in store was inaccurate, and, without going into the particulars of the matter, he might add that that blunder was a ridiculous one. The noble Earl had truly remarked that it was not proper to compare the condition of the Army now with what it was in former times; yet the present condition, he maintained, with regard to the weapon of the infantry, was a perfectly satisfactory one. The Snider rifle was superior to the weapon in the hands of any army in Europe, and its supply to the Reserve Forces had engaged the attention of the Wax Office ever since Mr. Cardwell accepted Office. 75,000 breech-loaders had been issued to the Reserve Forces, Sniders to the Militia and Pensioners, and the Westley Richards carbine to the Yeomanry. The arming of the Militia with Sniders would proceed until that force was completely armed with them; and the next force to be armed with them would be the Volunteers. The same course would be pursued with them as with the Militia, and they would be gradually armed with Sniders as means could be adopted for insuring that the arms should be properly taken care of. It must be remembered that the Snider
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  was a much more delicate weapon than the Enfield musket, and it was essential that Government should be satisfied that proper care would be taken of the arms placed in the hands of the Reserve Forces. As regarded the time it would take for men who had been trained to the use of muzzle-loaders to acquire efficiency in the handling of breechloaders, he did not profess to be able to give an opinion; but he had been assured that upon this point no apprehensions need be entertained, and that the shortest possible training would enable men who had been trained with muzzle-loading arms to use the Snider, which was one of the easiest and simplest weapons ever placed in the hands of a soldier.
  EARL COWPERinferred from the speech of the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook) that it would be some time before the Reserve Forces would be armed with breech-loading rifles, and he therefore wished to ask whether there would be any objection on the part of the Government to those regiments, who were ready to bear the expense of conversion, having their muzzle-loaders converted into breech-loaders—an operation which he was told could be effected at a cost of about 10 s. a weapon.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that if any offer of that nature were made by any regiment, the proposal would be considered by the Government.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, he did not know what the noble Lord opposite meant by efficiency, but he had never known the Army reduced to such a state as it was at present. He was informed there was not a single infantry regiment the rank and file of which exceeded 300 in number; that the cavalry regiments did not muster more than three squadrons; that the artillery was deficient in horsemen and gun-carriages; and he was told that the artillery flying column at Aldershot had been obliged to borrow waggons. What the noble Lord's idea of efficiency was he did not know; but in former times the establishment strength of infantry regiments had seldom been reduced below 800 men: although he recollected one instance in which the strength of a regiment fell to 750.
  LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the noble Viscount was altogether misinformed with respect to the strength of infantry

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  regiments; and he could positively contradict the statement that there was any regiment which could not muster more than 300 men.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, he spoke from his own knowledge with reference to Canadian regiments.

  MILITIA ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Acts relating to the Militia of the United Kingdom—Was presented by The Earl RUSSELL; read 1a.(No. 266.)
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.