Lords Sitting of 8 April 1870

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Medical Act (1858) Amendment (69); County Courts (Buildings)* (70); Survey of Great Britain, &c.* (71).
Committee—Report—High Court of Justice* (72); Appellate Jurisdiction* (73).

MEDICAL ACT (1858) AMENDMENT BILL.

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPON,in presenting a Bill to amend the Law relating to the Qualification of Practitioners in Medicine and Surgery, said, their Lordships were aware that there were at present a considerable number of separate corporations and bodies having power to confer licences upon gentlemen desirous of entering the medical profession, and that these licences entitled the recipients to be placed on the Medical Register. In the three kingdoms there were no less than nineteen licensing bodies, and it was, therefore, not to be wondered at that there should be a material difference in the terms under which they admitted their licentiates, and as to the nature of the examination to which those licentiates were subjected. Some of the bodies confined their examination to surgery, and others to medicine; while the fact of being placed on the Medical Register entitled the persons to be considered legal practitioners both in surgery and in medicine. It was proposed in the Bill to substitute for these various modes of entering the medical profession a single Examining Board in each of the three kingdoms, and to require uniformity in the character of the examinations. With that view it was proposed to give to the existing medical authorities—who were entitled to fair consideration on account of the services they had rendered to the profession, power to submit to the General Medical Council a scheme for the constitution of the new examining Boards; but with this restriction, that if any of them did not exercise that power within the time limited in the Bill, the power would lapse to the General Medical Council, who should themselves propose a scheme. The scheme when prepared would have to be submitted to the Privy Council before coming into operation; and their sanction would also be required as regarded the rules and regulations to be made by the General Medical Council for the conduct of the examinations. There was no intention to interfere with, the existing corporations with regard to their higher degrees. He had every reason to hope the measure would not be unacceptable to those bodies and to the public.
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  A Bill to amend the Law relating to the Qualification of Practitioners in Medicine and Surgery, and otherwise to amend the Medical Act, 1858—Was presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 69.)

INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF ATTOR- NEYS AND SOLICITORS IN IRELAND.

  PETITION. MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD CHELMSFORD,in calling the attention of the House to the Petition presented by the Incorporated Society of Attorneys and Solicitors of Ireland, and to move an Address for the issue of a Commission thereon, said, he had to bring before their Lordships the case of a very important body—namely, the Incorporated Society of Attorneys and Solicitors in Ireland. The facts which he had in the first place to bring to their notice as set forth in the Petition were these—Until 1866 every solicitor or attorney resident in Ireland was compelled to be a member of the Honourable Society of the King's Inns, Dublin, a voluntary association, the Governing Body of which were the Benchers, consisting of the Chancellor, Judges, and members of the Bar. The Benchers had for many years exercised control over both branches of the profession, and had laid down regulations for the admission of attorneys and solicitors, comprising, among other fees, one of £11 7s. 6d. on every such admission, as a deposit for chambers, to be allowed on taking chambers or the ground on which to build them. A Parliamentary Return in 1866 showed that, up to that time, the fees derived from all sources had amounted to £92,000, of which £53,800 had been derived from this admission fee; and, according to a report of the Society of the King's Inns in 1859, the amount of these deposits was £46,000, of which £30,000, they represented, had been expended on a hall, library, and chambers for the general use of the profession, and £11,000 on reception chambers and lecture rooms, to which they urged the attorneys were fairly bound to contribute. The solicitors did not question the application of these moneys; but they asserted that the only benefit accruing to the solicitors from this large sum was that they were allowed to occupy what were called the Solicitors' Building in the Four Courts; while no provision whatever was made for educating and training solicitors' appren-

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  tices, or for testing by examination the qualification of candidates for the profession in Ireland. In 1846, a Committee of the House of Commons sat to inquire into the state of legal education in Ireland; Mr., now Judge. Longfield was examined as a witness before that Committee, and expressed an opinion that, on no principle of justice could solicitors be required to contribute to a fund from which they derived no advantage; and the Committee reported that no provision was made for the education of solicitors' apprentices. The Society of the King's Inns, nevertheless, took no action in the matter; and it was not till 1860, on the solicitors obtaining a Parliamentary inquiry, that the Benchers consented to establish a Professorship, with an endowment of £100 per annum, and to appoint an Examiner at £30 per annum; the fees then amounting to £87,000. The solicitors were naturally anxious to emancipate themselves from the rule of the King's Inns; and, in 1866, a Bill was introduced into Parliament constituting them, as in England, a separate society. He (Lord Chelmsford) was intrusted with the charge of the Bill in their Lordships' House, when the second reading was agreed to without a division, his noble and learned Friend the late Lord Cran-worth, who then occupied the Woolsack, stating that he saw no objection to it. The Benchers, however, of course unwilling to relinquish such a profitable source of income, communicated with Lord Cranworth in a manner not altogether candid or complete, and his noble and learned Friend at the next stage of the Bill expressed serious doubts of its expediency, on the ground that the solicitors enjoyed reception rooms, lectures, and accommodation in return for their fees. After hearing, however, from himself a full explanation of the facts, his noble and learned Friend, with the candour and sense of justice so conspicuous in his character, admitted that the merits of the Bill had been entirely proved; and it thereupon passed without opposition. On the separation taking place, the solicitors contended that they had a right to the fund which had accumulated; and the following year the Benchers, evidently sensible of the claim which the solicitors had upon them, offered the Incorporated Society a lease of the apartments in the Four Courts then in
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  their possession, at a nominal rent, on condition of their keeping them in repair. The Incorporated Society, in reply, expressed their disappointment at the Benchers not having handed over to them the whole building in their possession, and the cost of which had been defrayed out of their own money, and their hope that, on re-consideration the Benchers would yet do so. The Benchers answered this in the negative; and on their attention being called to the considerable sums in their possession contributed by the solicitors, and to the propriety of a conference with a view to an amicable settlement, they stated that they were not aware of the existence of any claims which rendered a conference necessary. The correspondence was continued without any result; and, unfortunately, the King's Inns, not being a corporation, could not be sued, while the Incorporated Society of Attorneys and Solicitors was also incapable of suing or being sued in its corporate capacity. Moreover, all the Judges, both in law and equity, were members of the King's Inns. Feeling strongly the justice of the claim, he hoped their Lordships would not, by rejecting his Commission, deny the solicitors the only available remedy. They were not anxious to bring the King's Inns to a strict account with regard to these deposits for chambers; but simply desired to obtain suitable accommodation in the building, which at present they were not even offered. He trusted that the Benchers would meet the Incorporated Society of Attorneys in a spirit of conciliation, and that the existing differences would be amicably adjusted.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty will be pleased to issue a Commission to inquire into and report upon the total amount of the sums received by "The Honourable Society of the King's Inns, Dublin," upon the admission of attorneys and solicitors as deposits for chambers, and in what manner the same or any part thereof has been applied and disposed of, and what portion of the amount remains unappropriated to the purposes for which it was received, and whether the Incorporated Society of Attorneys and Solicitors of Ireland are in possession of suitable buildings for the accommodation of that branch of the profession of which tiny are the governing body.—(The Lord Chelmsford.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that his noble and learned Friend, in introducing his Motion, had spoken with

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  a little more asperity than was necessary on behalf of those who had entrusted their interests to his advocacy. He (the Lord Chancellor) had no difficulty in acceding to the Motion, inquiry being obviously due under all the peculiar circumstances of the case. He had communicated with the Judges and other legal authorities in Ireland, and they were anxious that the whole of the circumstances connected with the case should be laid before their Lordships; yet after reading the papers that had been forwarded to him in connection with the subject, he was of opinion that inquiry was the best thing that could be done for both parties. It was far better that amicable communications should take place between them, than that any hostile proceedings should be adopted. He was, however, bound to inform their Lordships that whilst 10 guineas were taken from attorneys and solicitors, a fee of 20 guineas was required from the other branch of the profession. It appeared that disputes arose with reference to the application of this money before 1859, and he held in his hand a pamphlet published in that year, containing the Benchers' statement of matters as they then stood, from which it appeared that out of the money they had received they had expended above £28,000 in erecting a building to be handed over exclusively to the solicitors and attorneys, and other buildings for libraries and reading-rooms, which were open to all branches of the profession. In that year they had expended, with the exception of a small sum, the whole of the money they had received from the attorneys. He confessed, nevertheless, it was impossible for him to say some inquiry was not reasonable and desirable. He hoped that inquiry would be intrusted to persons of weight and authority, and that the result would be to confer great benefit on all concerned. He would suggest that the Motion should be amended by the insertion of the words "whether any and," before "what portion of the amount remains unappropriated."
  LORD CHELMSFORDassented to the Amendment.
  Motion amended and agreed to.

  PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT.—ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM THE EARL OF LEITRIM rose to call attention to the manner in which the Irish Executive had exercised the powers conferred on them by various Acts with regard to the preservation of the peace. These statutes empowered the Lord Lieutenant, on the representation of the local magistrates, to send additional police to any district, and to charge one moiety of the expense upon the county or district, and the other on the Consolidated Fund. In 1846 the magistrates of the county of Leitrim represented to the Government that the police were inadequate for the due execution of the law in that district, whereupon the Irish Executive reluctantly, and for the first time, sent down additional police, and charged half the expense upon the locality. The result of this was so beneficial that Lord St. Germans, then Chief Secretary, brought in a Bill extending that power; and though Lord Russell defeated Sir Robert Peel's Government upon this measure, he himself, on his accession to Office, passed a similar one—namely, the Act 11 & 12 Vict. c. 12. This Act provided that the Lord Lieutenant, after proclaiming a district, might send additional police, and might afterwards by proclamation withdraw them; while an Act of 1857 empowered him to issue warrants for the collection of the requisite cess. Now, in the course of last year certain townlands in the parish of Condavanddock and barony of Kilmacrenan, in the county of Donegal, were proclaimed, and six additional police were sent down, on account of certain persons having been denounced from the altar. The locality was very properly taxed; but the cess was not imposed in the way prescribed by the Act, and, after two quarters, the tax was stopped, though the additional police were still on the spot. Whether the county or the Consolidated Fund was bearing the expense he could not ascertain. On his calling the attention of the Executive to the matter, he received a reply enclosing the opinion of the local magistracy that it would be undesirable under present circumstances to re-impose the tax, and stating that the Lord Lieutenant, while endorsing this opinion, would be prepared to re-consider his decision should any serious outrage be committed in the

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  locality. Now, nothing in the Act justified the Lord Lieutenant in shifting the responsibility from himself to the magistrates, from one of whom he had received a letter expressing regret that the tax had been allowed to die out, but declining to recommend its re-imposition. This was most unfortunate management, and nothing was more unsatisfactory than the manner in which police arrangements were carried out. The noble Earl then moved for a series of Returns relating to the proclamation of certain townlands in the county of Donegal; and other Returns relating to the murder of William O'Brien, in the lands of Drumdoo, in the parish of Mohill, in the county of Leitrim.
  LORD DUFFERINsaid, there could be no objection to the presentation of the Returns moved for, except of those relating to the movements of the police, which were of a confidential nature.
  Motion amended and agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday, the 28th instant, half past Ten o'clock.