(NO. 53.) COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 4 May 1869)

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
said, that while agreeing with the remark of 82 the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), on a recent occasion, on the desirability of the business of the House being transacted in public, he must express surprise that he should have pressed forward this measure to its present stage without having given any explanation of its scope and purpose. Both sides of the House would agree that it was desirable in a representative Government to place the permanent servants of the Crown in a distinct position, from its Parliamentary servants; because it was essential that whichever party happened to come into power, they should find a set of able and experienced men, generally free from party feelings, ready to assist them in the duties of their Departments. But for this, indeed, we could not go on under a representative Government. A step, however, in the direction of this Bill, had been made by the Legislature last Session, by conferring the voting power on the permanent servants, and it was now proposed to make them eligible for seats in the House of Commons. Now, if these gentlemen were allowed to enter Parliament, with all the knowledge gained in the Ministerial Departments,—perhaps, while the confidential servants of the Minister themselves—he apprehended that it would be detrimental to the public service: because it would diminish those relations of confidence which now existed between the Ministerial heads and the permanent heads of Departments. Then he wanted to know whether the Bill was to apply not only to persons who had retired after a long tenure of Office, but to those whose Offices had been abolished under schemes of re-construction? Were such men to gain seats in Parliament, and to speak with the advantage of the information they had become possessed of—an advantage which would naturally give weight to their speeches, even though some of that information might be incorrect? Constituencies, it was urged, should be free to elect whom they liked; but there must be some limit to this liberty of choice; for they could not be allowed to elect men who were still permanent servants of the Crown; and, if men who had just retired from Office were returned, they would be liable to use, even unintentionally, the information which they had confidentially obtained. Anyone 83 who had been in Office during the last twenty years must know that things of this kind had sometimes occurred, greatly to the disadvantage of public servants: and if a man, while working in an office, was looking forward to establishing a Parliamentary reputation hereafter, he might be tempted to communicate with those who would assist him in that object, and to use his official knowledge for the purpose of his future carper. Our Civil Service was now admittedly excellent; why, then, should we run any risk by making this change? These were the objections to which the Bill seemed to him to be open; but it was quite possible that the noble Marquess, who could explain any matter he took in hand with so much ability and precision, would be able to show that they were unfounded.

§ THE MARQUESS or SALISBURY
said, he had been sometimes censured for making too long speeches, but he had not before now been found fault with for not speaking at all. The fact was that a very interesting subject was impending on the evening fixed for the second reading of this Bill, and having ascertained from the noble Earl (Earl Granville) who represented the Government in that House, and from the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the Opposition (Lord Cairns) that neither side objected to the measure, and knowing their Lordships' disinclination for unnecessary speeches, he proposed the second reading without remark. As, however, the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) desired an explanation of the Bill, he was, of course, bound to give him one. The object of the statute of Anne, on on which the present regulations on this subject were mainly based, was to limit the power and influence of the Crown by preventing too large a number of persons holding offices or pensions at the pleasure of the Crown from sitting in Parliament; but as pensions fixed by process of law and to which the holders had an indefeasible right did not then exist, their case was never contemplated In course of time such pensions, under the name of superannuations, were established, being earned by an annual deduction from individual salaries, and so becoming the right of the persons who earned them, not by favour of the Crown but by virtue of the duties they had performed. The statute of Anne it was then 84 found had an operation which had never been contemplated—such, at least, being the judgment of some lawyers—for it excluded from the House of Commons persons who had retired from the Civil Service on superannuations. There was therefore a primâ facie case for removing an accidental and undesigned disability. He was told that some very distinguished persons had been excluded from the House of Commons by the operation of this statute—among them being the late Mr. Hallam; but it would be invidious to refer to men still living. He could not see the slightest objection to their presence in Parliament, for there was not such a superfluity of public experience that persons should be excluded because they knew too much of public matters. Their Lordships would all understand the noble Duke's speech, but it was likely to have an unfortunate effect out-of-doors, giving people the impression that the main object of those who held high offices in the State was to enter into a kind of conspiracy to keep from Parliament the knowledge of what was going on within the walls of their offices. The noble Duke dreaded the possibility of a former subordinate revealing what had occurred in a public office; but it was proposed by the Life Peerages Bill to introduce into this House, inter alios, persons who had held these very permanent offices which were now regarded as an absolute disqualification for sitting in Parliament. The inconvenience which he dreaded was a purely theoretical one, for he did not believe the noble Duke could adduce a single instance in which the discretion always observed by servants of the Crown had been departed from, and in which knowledge obtained in a confidential capacity had been used to injure a former superior. Until a ease of this kind was adduced, such an imputation was a libel on a service which had not deserved it, and was no reason for re- tabling a special disability. If the noble Duke's view were correct, such men ought to be excluded as jealously from this as from the other House; but the most recent addition to the Roll of this House was a man who had held high office under the Crown with great distinction, and nobody had ever supposed that the gift of a peerage to such a man was an injury to Secretaries of State for India. The House of Commons did not 85 enjoy such a superfluity of political knowledge as to justify the exclusion of distinguished official men; and a possible breach of confidence which had never yet occurred did not justify the exclusion from Parliamentary honours of a deserving class of Her Majesty's subjects, who were eminently fitted to instruct and guide the action of Parliament.

§ THE DUKE OF SOMERSET
reminded the noble Marquess that these pensions were not in all cases matters of rule, but were sometimes settled between the head of the Department and the Treasury, according to a great variety of circumstances. He could mention many eases of the kind.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, that while thinking that any Peer rendered great service to the House by scrutinizing these small Bills, which often passed without investigation, he had not anticipated any objection to this measure, having understood that it was a declaratory Bill rather than one introducing any now principle. The special cases to which the noble Duke had just referred were very exceptional; and even where increased allowances were given on the recommendation of the head of the Department these would have been settled before the Bill came into operation; so that the person who had been granted a larger or smaller pension would be perfectly independent with regard to the future. He did not quite agree with the noble Duke as to the injury which retired official persons might do, for the presumption, in the case; of a man who had held office for many years in the Civil Service was that the information he possessed might be of great use to Parliament. As to any improper use of that information, he did not believe them capable of such conduct: but if anyone was so, he had ample facilities of doing it now by means of the public Press or by communicating with a Gentleman already in Parliament. He did not see how the Bill could make this more harmful; while, on the other hand, persons of this class might take a useful part-in the discussion of public questions.