Lords Sitting of 3 May 1869

MINUTES.
— Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Meldrum, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS — Select Committee — Fine Arts Copyright Consolidation and Amendment (No. 2)* (51), nominated.
Committee—Report—(£17,100,000) Consolidated Fund*.
Report—Militia* (83); Lands Clauses Consolidation Act Amendment* (90).
Third Reading—Park Gate Chapel Marriages* (59), and passed.

TURCO-PERSIAN BOUNDARY LINE.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFErose to ask—

  1. Whether the negotiation carried on at St. Peters burgh between the British and Russian Governments respecting the Turco-Persian Boundary Line has come or is likely soon to come to a conclusion:

  2. Whether the map of that frontier, undertaken by the two mediating governments with a view to the demarcation as settled by treaty, is so far completed that the identical copies of it may be forthwith delivered and used for the intended purpose:

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  3. Whether it be true that the Turkish and Persian Governments have agreed to submit the settlement of their frontier question to a mixed commission:

  4. Whether it be intended, if such commission be appointed, to include among its members any person or persons hitherto employed in the construction of the map?

  The noble Viscount said, he felt some diffidence in raising the question, because at this moment the attention of the Government and of the country was so much directed towards the West that the affairs of the East excited little interest. The subject of his question was, however, one of great interest and importance, and he hoped he should receive an assurance from his noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) that these negotiations, which had involved so much time and expense, were approaching a satisfactory issue. These negotiations, as stated four years ago, when calling their Lordships' attention to the subject, came under his notice as long ago as 1842 or 1844, when, after a good deal of bickering between the two Mahomedan Governments, a war broke out on the frontier. The Russian Ambassador acceded to his request that they should

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  jointly mediate, and a Commission was appointed by the English and Russian Governments, the result being the conclusion in 1847 of the Treaty of Erzeroum. When, however, the question came to be considered how' that treaty should be carried out, great difficulties arose; and it was at length decided by England and Russia to send their Commissioners to the disputed territory, that with the assistance of Engineer and other officers nominated by the two Mahomedan Governments, they might prepare a map of the whole frontier, between the Turkish and Persian Empires, from Mount Ararat to the head of the Persian Gulf. The Crimean War led to a suspension of the undertaking; but it had since been resumed, and at this moment there existed, or ought to exist, a complete map of the district, which was one of great political and commercial importance. He had been informed, and should be glad to know whether it was true, that the two Mahomedan Powers had agreed to the appointment of a Mixed Commission. If some person or persons who had taken part in the construction of the map were placed on such a Commission, there would, he thought, be a reasonable prospect of the early settlement of this long-pending question.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, that his noble Friend's long experience and distinguished services in the East eminently entitled him to call the attention of the House to any Eastern question. He could assure him that the subject had engaged the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and, indeed, he might say that Eastern affairs generally were receiving a very largo portion of the attention of the Foreign Office. With regard to the particular subject referred to by his noble Friend, he need not remind him that, at the time the present Government came into power, the peace of Europe was endangered by a quarrel between Turkey and Greece, and the manner in which that quarrel had been settled had opened the way, he thought, to a better understanding between those two Powers; and it was equally desirable that the question which his noble Friend had brought forward, and on which so much time and money had been expended, should be brought to a satisfactory issue. It was agreed by the Treaty of Erzeroum that the two Mahomedan Powers should lay down a
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  frontier line, which both of them should engage to respect, and England and Russia undertook as mediating Powers to assist in the work. It was suspended for several years on account of the Crimean War, although the English Government were willing that it should have been continued; and it was finally agreed that maps should be prepared by the two mediating Powers—maps not exactly defining the boundary, but marking out the district that was in dispute, and through which the boundary line should run. The English map was ready in 1865, and his noble Friend (Earl Russell) proposed that the two maps should be handed over to the two Mahomedan Governments, it being agreed that they should trace a line of frontier. The Russian map was ready in 1866, and both were sent to Constantinople. But, unfortunately, on comparison, there were such discrepancies between the two maps that they were practically useless. It was then thought best that one standard map should be prepared by England. Instructions were accordingly sent out, and the Foreign Office were informed that the map would be ready by December, 1868; but he had lately made inquiries, and had ascertained that it was not likely to be ready before July or August next. It had not yet been definitely arranged how it should be used, and in what manner it should be binding upon the two Mahomedan Governments; but as soon as the map was prepared a proposition on the subject would be made; and he could assure his noble Friend that, as far as the Government was concerned, there should be no delay in urging a settlement. There was no understanding between Turkey and Persia that the matter should be settled by a Mixed Commission; but there was every reason to believe that they were desirous of effecting an early settlement of the question.

BISHOPS OF WINCHESTER, SALISBURY, EXETER, AND BATH AND WELLS.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETasked, Whether any arrangement has been made or any measure is in contemplation to replace the three Right Reverend Prelates in the South-western counties who have now been for some

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  time incapacitated by illness from the performance of any duties? He was anxious not to say a word which should give the slightest pain to those right rev. Prelates or their friends; but it was desirable that attention should be called to the unfortunate position of the counties in the South-west of England, with two of which he was especially connected. It was well known that in the Civil Service a person who could no longer discharge the duties of his office could retire, some provision being made for him; but in the ease of the episcopate no such practice existed, though it was obviously unsatisfactory that men should continue for a long period to receive the emoluments and exercise the patronage of an office when they could perform none of its duties.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I do not know whether. I am quite in Order in answering the noble Duke's Question, or whether it should devolve on some Member of Her Majesty's Government; but perhaps, as I know more of the matter than anyone else, I may be allowed to give an explanation. It would not, I think, be right to regard all the eases to which the noble Duke has referred as alike. The case of my right rev. Brother the Bishop of Salisbury is that of a man of about my own age, who has been struck with sudden illness, the result of which no one can at present foresee, and it would be out of the question to suppose that any permanent arrangement could be made in that instance. Those who know that right rev. Prelate are aware that a more zealous and conscientious man does not exist, and that no person would be more unlikely than he to remain in possession of any office the duties of which he was not able to discharge. The experience of all of us shows that a man in middle age may be struck by sudden illness—as, for example, a Judge while going Circuit—and it is impossible and unreasonable to expect that any arrangement can be made for such a calamity. The noble Duke, no doubt, referred rather to the cases of two right, rev. Prelates who, far advanced in life, have, through the failure of their bodily strength, been unable lately to discharge fully the duties of their office. Now. I may remind your Lordships that last year I endeavoured to convince you of the propriety of making some arrange-
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  ment by which a Bishop thus disabled might be relieved from the active discharge of his functions. The discussion occupied more than one evening, and I am sorry to say that, notwithstanding all I urged, the House was of opinion that it was not advisable to do anything in the matter at that time. The result, therefore, is that these right rev. Prelates are unable to retire, because no arrangement whatever has been made whereby their retirement, would be possible. In the case of Judges there is a settled arrangement; but. when I endeavoured to urge on the House a similar arrangement for members of the Episcopal Bench, far advanced in years and suffering under great infirmity, the House thought it better nothing should be done to facilitate their resignation. The Bishop of Exeter, as your Lordships are aware, has been in failing health for a number of years. He is now of the advanced age of ninety years; but I am bound to say, from my communications with him, that he still preserves that vigour of intellect—when he is able to rouse himself—which characterized him in former times. It ought to be known that, now many years ago, he applied to Lord Palmerston's Government to put into effect the Act of Henry VIII., whereby he might have been relieved of the discharge of his duties by the appointment of a Suffragan. The Government, however, I have been told, acting under the best advice, thought it was not desirable the Act should be put in force. It cannot, therefore, be said that the Bishop of Exeter has not taken the only step which the law pointed out for securing the appointment of some one to perform such duties as, from advancing age, he was unable personally to perform. With regard to the Bishop of Winchester and the Bishop of Bath and Wells, of course it may well be supposed that the Bishop of Exeter having failed to induce the Government to take the course of appointing a Suffragan, they were deterred from making a similar application, believing that it would be equally fruitless. I do not attach any blame to Lord Palmerston's Government for not having taken that course, for no doubt it is difficult to put in force an Act which has not been applied for a very long time; but what I wish to point out is that, there being no provision whereby the

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  right rev. Prelates can be relieved of their office, they have taken such steps as were within their power to secure the performance of their duties. I hold in my hand communications from those right rev. Prelates, stating the arrange-merits they have made; and in order that your Lordships may see that, as far as it has been possible, the duties of those sees have been performed by deputy, I will read a portion of the letter I have received from the Bishop of Winchester—
  "I was laid low by illness a little move than a year ago. At the earliest possible period I issued three commissions, one to Bishop Ryan, for the performance of purely episcopal acts, and one to each of my archdeacons for the performance of other offices which do not require the intervention of a person of the episcopal order. I have desired my secretary to send your Grace a copy of these commissions. For the last six months I am thankful to say that it has pleased God so far to restore me to health and strength as to enable me to resume the supervision of my diocese. From a difficulty which I have in utterance, I am unable to take any part in the public duties of my office, nor can I hold such intercourse with my clergy as could wish. No work, however, is undertaken in the diocese without my knowledge or consent. The work which for six months my archdeacons undertook for me I have in a great measure resumed. All the business of my diocese is brought under my immediate notice. I read all my correspondence myself, and by means of my domestic chaplain, who is resident with me, I communicate with my clergy on every subject which is brought before me. Bishop Ryan continues to undertake purely episcopal acts which, owing to my infirmity, I am unable to perform; and I am thankful to be able to say that during the past year there has been no delay either in the ordering of confirmations or consecrations. Since March, in 186S, confirmations were held last year throughout the county of Hants, and in the South London parishes, where desired. In Hants, 11,350 young persons received the rite of confirmation, and in Surrey 1,606. This year, by the middle of this month, confirmations will have been held in fifty-eight churches for the parishes of Surrey. During the same period of time fifteen new churches and about twenty additional churchyards have been consecrated, and seven churches have been re-opened after restoration. Bishop Ryan has also ordained sixty-seven deacons and priests for the work of the ministry in my diocese. I am happy to say that I do not think any application from any clergyman for episcopal work has been unattended to. I beg most heartily to thank your Grace for your kind expression of feeling towards myself, and to assure you that you read my feelings a right when you say that you feel sure that the care of my diocese is very near my heart."
  I do not, of course, mean to say that that is the best possible way of superintending a diocese under such circumstances, but it is the only way which the law at present recognizes. If your Lordships
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  would consent to a re-consideration of the question, I am sure a more satisfactory state of things might be introduced. I am happy to be able to say that Her Majesty's Government have been in communication with me as to the best mode of drafting a Bill whereby it would be possible for Prelates disabled by age or infirmity to be relieved from the discharge of their duties, and I trust that measure will soon be submitted to your Lordships, and that it will receive your sanction.
  LORD LYTTELTONmust express his regret that the Episcopal Bench appeared neither willing to press forward an increase of the episcopate themselves, nor to co-operate with any one else who might be disposed to take up the question. Sir John Coleridge, whose name would carry the greatest weight, had suggested to him the outline of a measure on the retirement of Bishops, founded on the analogy mentioned by the most rev. Prelate between Bishops and Judges; and knowing nothing of the communications between the Government and the most rev. Prelate on the subject, he had had a Bill prepared. He hoped the matter would be settled by legislation during the present Session.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, he was willing to give every consideration to the noble Lord's Bill, and assured him he was mistaken in attributing to the right rev. Bench any unwillingness to co-operate with him with regard to an increase of the episcopate or any other question. With the encouragement of the Government he did not despair of a scheme being agreed to which would meet the difficulty.
  THE BISHOP OF ST.DAVID'Ssaid, that some exaggerations, proceeding from opposite quarters, but both calculated to do mischief to the Church, were prevalent as to the true nature and limits of the episcopal functions, and were calculated to do a great deal of harm to the Church. On the one hand zealous and well-meaning friends of the Church had formed an idea of the episcopal office that could not be realized, without a system of personal visitation which would involve such a multiplication of dioceses as would be neither practicable nor desirable—the diocese of London, for example, would require, supposing a Bishop to be required for a given number of population, not two but twenty Bishops. Now,

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  he took a very different view of the duties of the office, believing that while it was the business of a Bishop to organize, direct, and stimulate every good work going on within the diocese, it was not necessary or even desirable that he should personally lay his hand to the work. On the other hand, it had been urged—and it was an exaggeration that lurked in the speeches of his noble Friend (Lord Lyttelton)—that if a diocese was deprived of the personal presence and action of its Bishops for a considerable length of time, it was either in danger of falling to pieces and the whole administration coming to a dead-lock; or that if this were not so the episcopal office must be a superfluity. Now. if a person were attacked by influenza or bronchitis, and were able to stand against it, though it might be fatal to others, the natural inference was that he enjoyed the blessing of a very strong constitution; but did it follow that, while the malady lasted, he stood in no need of medical assistance? A see deprived of the personal presence and activity of its chief pastor was certainly not in a normal state, but there were many things which very much mitigated the misfortune. The illness of a Bishop did not necessarily incapacitate him for all the duties of his office, for there remained many which he might be perfectly able to fulfil. He received the assistance of his brother Bishops for episcopal duties; and a great amount of help was habitually given by the archdeacons for duties not strictly episcopal. In all these cases the parochial machinery which was the pride and strength of the Church of England might be going on for a very long time without any interruption or abatement of its vigour, notwithstanding a misfortune of this kind which might befall the diocese. He should be sorry to make light of the disaster which had befallen these dioceses; but he thought that these considerations, if they were allowed to have the weight which was due to them, might servo to protect the Church both from groundless despondency even under very unfavourable circumstances on the part of its friends, and from groundless and mischievous reflections on the part of its enemies.
  THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDsaid, the question of an increase of the episcopate —on which he would now offer no opinion—ought to be kept distinct from
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  that of the appointment of Suffragans in cases of permanent illness. When a diocese was for any lengthened period presided over by a Prelate who was incapacitated for performing its duties, the episcopate itself fell into discredit with those who were not friendly disposed towards the Church. He did not doubt that the strictly episcopal duties in Winchester and Exeter were well performed by those appointed for that purpose, and that the archdeacons were quite competent to discharge such duties as were not strictly episcopal; but it was discreditable; to the Church that there should be no arrangement with regard to Bishops unable from age or infirmity to perform their duties. It was unreasonable to suppose that Bishops, unless in affluent circumstances, would retire without any pensions, and he hoped some funds would be found for that purpose. The subject was of very great importance, and he trusted the right rev. Bench would aid the Government in preparing a measure which would put a stop to the mischief.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he desired it to be understood that the Bill now being prepared by communication between the most rev. Prelate and the Prime Minister dealt solely with the question of Bishops incapacitated from physical or mental causes, from discharging the ditties of their dioceses.

LIFE PEERAGES—OFFICE OF LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR OF ENGLAND.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE, pursuant to notice, moved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that for the advantage of this House and for the honour of the legal profession Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to sanction the erection of the office of Lord High Chancellor of England into a barony which shall entitle the holder of that office to a writ of summons to Parliament by such title as Her Majesty shall in each case be pleased to summon him; and that such writ of summons as aforesaid shall make the person receiving the same, although he may not continue to hold the said office, a Peer of Parliament for life without remainder to the heirs of his body.—(The Lord Redesdale.)
  EARL STANHOPEappealed to the noble Lord not to proceed at present with his Motion. If the Motion should be rejected, it would seem to negative the principle of the Bill of the noble Earl (Earl Russell); while if earned it

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  would apparently imply that no further step was required.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he must admit there was some force in the noble Earl's representation, and was not un-willing to accede to his appeal. The Address would affirm, to a limited extent, the principle of life peerages; and therefore it might be desirable, before the House was committed to it, to see the state in which the noble Earl's Bill would come out of Committee. This, however, was no new idea, for as long ago as 1851—a desire being felt to strengthen the appellate jurisdiction of the House—he suggested that the Law might be represented in the same way as the Church—namely, by certain offices entitling those who held them to sit in this House. Thus some years before the Wensleydale case was discussed, he (Lord Redesdale) had called attention to the subject; but he received no encouragement to proceed with his proposition, which was that the Chancellor, the two Chief Justices, and the Chief Baron, should be summoned in connection with their offices; and he thought, if those peerages were continued to them for life on their retirement from those offices, they would prove most useful Members of the House. It appeared to him that the Office of Chancellor stood in a peculiar position in reference to the House. Although the Lord Chancellor was not necessarily a Peer, still he was Speaker of the House ex officio; and it seemed to be a very natural conclusion that the office should have a peerage for life attached to it ex officio. At the same time that might be coupled with another proposition which would prevent it from being at all invidious — that a person so summoned in connection with his office might at any time have the peerage so granted to him made hereditary by special grant from the Crown. Perhaps the whole question would be better discussed when they knew the disposition of the House in regard to the Life Peerage question generally. Under these circumstances he would withdraw his Motion, reserving to himself the power of bringing it forward on a future occasion.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, as his noble Friend had intimated his intention of withdrawing his Resolution, he would only make a single observation on the subject. His noble Friend com-
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  menced his Resolution by stating that "it would be for the advantage of the House and for the honour of the legal profession" that the course he recommended should be taken. It was not, of course, for him (the Lord Chancellor) to say what their Lordships would consider "for the advantage of the House;" but with regard to its being "for the honour of the legal profession" he must, at that moment, humbly enter his protest against the proposition that the Chancellor should be the marked exception from every other case, and that he alone should be fastened on as having the honour of sitting and voting in the House with simply a peerage for life. One other observation he would make his noble Friend would excuse him for suggesting that, while he proposed to create a barony, it would rather seem that he intended the Chancellor to be a corporation sole; because he would continue to be a Peer when his barony was gone—that is, when he ceased to be Chancellor. If the Resolution were carried, they would never again have a Lord Chancellor other than a life Peer. The question, if considered at all, had better be considered in Committee on the noble Earl's Bill.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.