ADDRESS FOE, RETURNS. (Hansard, 9 March 1869)

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE
rose to move an Address for Copies of Correspondence between the Government and Magistrates of Tipperary relating to ejectments at Ballycohey, and Returns of Crimes furnished to the Judges of Assize by the Constabulary in each County in Ireland. The noble Marquess, having detailed the particulars of the dreadful occurrence at Ballycohey, when Mr. Scully, the landlord, having procceeded 947 with, civil assistants, escorted by police, to serve notices of ejectment on his tenants, was suddenly fired upon from a farmhouse, whereby two of the constabulary were killed, and four others of the party, including Mr. Scully himself, were wounded, proceeded to comment severely upon the conduct of the stipendiary magistrate in sending so small an escort of constabulary. Considering the character of Mr. Scully, the notoriety of the intended proceedings, and the known determination of the peasantry to resist, the insufficiency of the escort was calculated to provoke rather than ward off an attack. In contrast with the conduct of the magistrate in this case, he would refer to what was done in another case, when the magistrate not only gave an escort of sixty police, but accompanied them himself; the consequence being that no disturbance took place, and the law was vindicated, without bloodshed. He thought a case of greater indiscretion on the part of a stipendiary magistrate than the conduct which led to the attack on Mr. Scully and party never occurred. When the outrage was reported at Dublin Castle, rewards were offered, and additional police were sent down; but after a short time they were withdrawn, and there soon followed two other murders; one of a gentleman who was killed near his own house because of the decision he had given in an arbitration about a right of way, and the other of a man named Tracey, who was murdered on the highway. Since he had first given notice on this matter he had felt it to be his duty to move for another Return, because the state of Ireland presented the most lamentable condition as regarded crime that had been known for years. It was almost impossible to take up a newspaper without meeting with the record of some fresh, outrage, and in very few, if any, instances did the perpetrators appear to be brought to justice. Their Lordships had probably all read of the outrage committed at Mullingar quite recently, in which a station-master was the victim. The disproportion of convictions to the number of crimes committed had lately been made the subject of official comment both in Meath and Tipperary. The want of respect for the law appeared to be confined to no particular county and to no particular locality, and it was therefore very necessary that steps should be taken to 948 enforce the law. He could not help thinking that some of the opinions with, regard to the land question expressed in certain high quarters had been attended with, the most unfortunate effect. As an instance of the carelessness which characterized some of the remarks made upon this subject, he alluded to the circumstance that, at the late election, for Mallow a legal functionary promised the mob that the land question should be "immediately and satisfactorily settled" in the present Parliament. Such statements could hardly be too strongly deprecated, especially when, they remembered what was the nature of a "satisfactory settlement" as viewed by the lower classes in Ireland.

LORD DUFFERIN
In reply to the observations of the noble Marquess, or rather in reply to his Motion, I can only state that, inasmuch as the correspondence which has arisen out of the unhappy events to which, he has called your Lordships' attention is not completed, I do not think that it would be advisable to lay the Papers upon the table of the House. At the same time it is right I should state that, after due investigation, into all the circumstances of the case, it has appeared to the Government of Ireland that Mr. De Gernon, to whom my noble Friend has alluded as the stipendiary magistrate, certainly did misinterpret the letter of his instructions, inasmuch as he did not communicate the letter concerning the removal of the police to all the magistrates of the district. It is a fact that he merely communicated that letter to two or three gentlemen who happened to have been assembled on that day, and in so doing he certainly failed to comply with the instructions he had received. In consequence of this a very natural feeling of 949 dissatisfaction has arisen against him in the minds of the magistrates of the district, and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has thought it desirable to remove Mr. De Gernon from that neighbourhood. But, on the other hand, I think it fair to Mr. De Gernon to inform my noble Friend that he has been misinformed. When Mr. Scully applied for personal protection, Mr. De Gernon hesitated to give the protection asked for. I believe the grounds upon which he refused the protection could not be sustained, and the protection was afforded at the instance of the Government of the day in Ireland. As these matters, together with all the proceedings connected with them, occurred under the Administration of the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Abercorn) I do not propose to follow my noble Friend into the particulars to which he has referred; but I cannot sit down without observing how deep must be the humiliation of every one connected with Ireland on witnessing that country become the theatre of outrages from which for almost fifteen years she has been comparatively free. But, on the other hand, it is consolatory to notice that these offences appear to be very much localized, and to be confined to this particular district. I need scarcely say that the Government are fully alive to the exigencies of the situation, and that they will use all the means in their power to make law and justice respected.

THE DUKE OF ABERCORN
I shall, my Lords, only say a few words upon this Motion, as I am placed at some disadvantage, owing to the absence of my noble Friend Lord Mayo, who is now in India, and therefore have not had the benefit of a consultation with him. But I think I am in possession of some information which will considerably modify some of the remarks made by the noble Marquess. As far as I understand him, the two points to which he principally refers are, first, the action of Mr. De Gernon in giving Mr. Scully insufficient support in serving the notices of ejectment; and secondly, the subsequent withdrawal of the extra police by the Government. Now, with the appointment of Mr. De Gernon we had nothing to do. He was appointed by a Liberal Government. We found him in Tipperary, and we left him there. I must, however, add that all I had heard, up to the time of 950 this outrage, of Mr. De Gernon was to his advantage, and in especial that he had done good service during the time of the Fenian insurrection. The noble Marquess is right in saying that Lord Mayo granted protection to Mr. Scully in consequence of the danger which would probably attend his visit to Ballycohey; but the circumstances themselves are rather different from those stated by the noble Marquess. It appears that, on the day of this outrage, Mr. Scully proceeded with an escort of six policemen to inspect the lands at Ballycohey, and also with some intention, not very fully expressed to the officials, of serving notices of ejectment on some of the tenants. The report made by Mr. De Gernon states that Mr. Scully availed himself of the escort granted for his personal safety for the purpose of serving notices preliminary to an ejectment, and that he persisted in so doing in spite of the warning given him by the constable in charge of the escort, who informed him, when the conduct of Mr. Scully had collected a very large crowd of people, that the force at his command was insufficient for his protection. Mr. Scully notwithstanding entered a farm yard, for the purpose of serving a notice, when a fire was opened upon his party from the roof and walls of the building. It is evident, therefore, that the outrage arose from the rash and precipitate course adopted by Mr. Scully, who persisted in serving the notices in spite of the wishes and representations of the police. I think, therefore, no blame can be attached to the late Government in the matter. As the noble Marquess said, on hearing of the outrage they sent additional police, who remained there until they were withdrawn in consequence of the representation of the magistrates. The noble Marquess alluded to a letter from the Castle. It was written by the gallant gentleman who then filled the office of Under Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and I need hardly say that there was no more experienced or more able public servant than Sir Thomas Larcom in any Department of the public service. On receiving the communication from the magistrates the Government had no reason to think there was any dissent from it. Indeed, it was not for five months afterwards and two months from the time the late Government left Office the meeting was held at which it was stated that 951 there had been dissent on the part of some of the magistrates. In justice to Mr. De Gernon, I must say that I think the opinion stated at that meeting may be regarded as an ex post facto one. The noble Marquess has alluded to other outrages which have taken place; but as these have occurred since the late Government left Office we cannot be held responsible. I must, however, remark that I think it is a great stretch of imagination to suppose that the withdrawal of half-a-dozen policemen could have any effect whatever in leading to outrages at a distance of twenty miles from the place where those policemen had been stationed. Again, I think no one can accuse the late Government of having condoned outrages or having failed to assert the law. I am sure that if the Papers for which the noble Marquess has moved were laid on the table of the House your Lordships would come to the conclusion that the late Government were not only justified in the course which they took, but that it was the only course they could have taken.

EARL GEANVILLE
As the noble Duke has alluded to the course taken by the late Government in respect of the repression of crime, I may observe that though the present Government are anxious to do all that can be justly expected with a view to conciliating the feelings of the people of Ireland, that does not at all diminish their determination to support the law, to put down crime, and to take every means to bring home punishment to offenders. In their I efforts to improve the condition of Ireland the Government look to the people of Ireland to help them; but I think the Irish people must feel how much such deplorable outrages as those which have been alluded to this evening must tend to create in the minds of the community at large an indisposition rather than a willingness to attend to their representations.