Lords Sitting of 29 July 1869

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Fisheries (Ireland)* (236).
Second Reading— Contagious Diseases (Animals) (217); Jamaica Loans* (204); Savings Hanks and Post Office Savings Banks* (211); Insolvent Debtors and Bankruptcy Repeal* (195); Presentation of Benefices belonging to Roman Catholics, &c. (200); Valuation of Property (Metropolis)* (22ii); Public Schools Act(18C8) Amendment* (232); Millbank Prison * (234), postponed; Metropolitan Poor Act (1867) Amendment" (235).
Committee—Contagious Diseases* (221); Pharmacy Act (1868) Amendment* (108–238).
Committee—Report—County Courts (Admiralty Jurisdiction) Act (1868) Amendment * (173); Shipping Dues Exemption Act (1867) Amendment * (178); Cinque Ports Act Amendment* (216).
Third Reading—Bankruptcy (208); Prevention of Gaming (Scotland)* (206), and passed.
Withdrawn—Ecclesiastical Courts (191).

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
(NO. 191.) BILL WITHDRAWN.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, the Select Committee had reported this Bill with Amendments; but the Session "being now so far advanced, he felt it useless to proceed further with it. He should take the earliest opportunity next Session of re-introducing it.
Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL—(No. 217.)
(The Lord President.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Heading, read.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPON EARL DE GREY AND RIPON, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that although it consisted of 126 clauses it was, in fact, a measure for consolidating the existing law. That being so, it would not be necessary to detain their Lordships by a minute statement of the details. As their Lordships were aware, the Privy Council was already invested with large powers with reference to the contagious and infectious diseases of animals, but many persons interested in agriculture desired special legislative provision for dealing with two wide-spread diseases, pleuro-pneumonia and sheep-pox. Authority was consequently given in the Bill to deal with these diseases in a stringent manner—especially with pleuro-pneumonia, which was highly infectious, and more certainly fatal. The principal new provisions of the Bill were those relating to the regulations for the importation of foreign cattle, the Government having felt it their duty, while preserving to the public the benefit of free trade in cattle and a free supply of food, to strengthen the powers intrusted to the Executive of so regulating the importation of foreign cattle as to prevent the introduction of diseases. The principle of the Bill was to give large discretionary powers to the Privy Council, so that their action might be varied according to the different circumstances of different countries. With regard to the supply of foreign cattle for the London market, it had been found necessary under the present system to draw a cordon round the metropolis, so that all beasts, whether foreign or domestic, which came within it. were prohibited from leaving it alive. This restriction, checking the movements of cattle, had operated very inconveniently to home breeders, and had been much complained of; and the Government had endeavoured to remove it without running the risk of introducing into this country diseases brought by foreign cattle. Power was given to the City of London to provide a market to which all cattle coming

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from suspected countries would be sent, none being permitted to be taken alive beyond a certain circuit. This market would have to be constructed before the end of 1872. He had no doubt the City of London would carry out the arrangement; but, in case of its default, that part of the Metropolitan Market Act which gave it a monopoly against all other persons within seven miles of a certain point would be abolished, so that other parties would be able to step in and provide what was needed. The new market would be subject to the approval of the Privy Council, and the cordon would then be removed. He believed that the operations of home breeders would thus be facilitated, while guarding against danger from foreign animals.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a —(The Lord President.)
THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLsaid, he was glad to find that in this Bill protection was provided against the frightful and needless suffering undergone by cattle during the transit, and at the port of landing; and he was deeply grateful to the Government for having taken into consideration the evils they endured: but he would venture to suggest that the 64th and 76th clauses should be carried a little further. Their Lordships would have seen in The Times of that morning a letter on this subject from Professor Moffett, of the Queen's College, Galway. He had previously received a manuscript copy of the letter, and should have read it to the House, had it not already obtained full publicity. It had been hoped that conveyance by railway would considerably mitigate the sufferings formerly undergone; but no one could have been at a railway station, and seen the crowded cattle trucks full of beasts frantic with thirst and crowding, without being struck with horror at their sufferings. It was therefore with great satisfaction that he saw some provision made to remedy this dreadful evil. The 64th clause provided that animals should not be more than thirty hours in the trucks without being supplied with food and water; and evidence had been offered that they could fast twenty-four hours. This might be the case under the ordinary conditions; but when crowded in a truck, and exposed to every
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kind of terror, thirty hours were much too long a time, and he hoped that, in Committee, the Government would consent to reduce the number of hours to twelve. The 76th clause empowered the Privy Council to enforce that food and water should be supplied to animals, upon their being landed at our ports from a foreign country; but he thought that the Government might carry this matter further, and insist on food and water being supplied to them during the voyage. Nothing but the greed and rapacity of those engaged in the cattle trade prevented this being done; and it might easily be accomplished by providing that an inspector should be attached as supercargo to vessels engaged in the transport of cattle. But he thought they should be also protected from unnecessary suffering in conveyance by railway. It was true that persons having animals carried in a cruel way were liable to punishment; but there was a difficulty in enforcing the law. The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, of which he was a Vice President, had successfully prosecuted a dealer who, at his own risk, hired a railway truck and forced six animals into it; but there should be some general order, enabling railway companies to prevent over-crowding, on on the part of rapacious persons. He could assure their Lordships that the sufferings of cattle formed a subject of grave consideration among a great many reflecting persons, and that any legislation which would tend to alleviate them would be hailed as an honour to the country.
LORD COLONSAYrose to point out a difficulty which might arise in Scotland from the use of the term "local authority," as regarded counties; and objected to the option given to the Commissioners of Supply, as to whether the rate should be borne by the landlords or should be shared between them and their tenants. This would be invidious; and it would be better for Parliament to decide the point, the usual custom being that rates were divided equally between the landlord and the tenant.
LORD EGERTON OF TATTONwas glad the Government had taken steps to guard against other diseases besides cattle plague.
THE EARL OF ROMNEYreferred to the great and unnecessary suffering

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caused by thirst, and expressed approval of the limitation suggested by the right rev. Prelate.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPON EARL DE GREY AND RIPON, in reply, said he should be happy to consider the Amendments of the right rev. Prelate. Both aspects of the case should be taken into account, for the untrucking of animals to supply them with food and water was attended with suffering. He feared that the points raised by the noble and learned Lord, as to Scotland, could not be dealt with consistently with the privileges of the other House.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

BANKRUPTCY BILL—(No. 207–8.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)

THIRD READING.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a." —(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ROMILLYsaid, that before the Bill was read the third time he desired to point out that, as the Bill now stood, a person who drew a bill payable at any future day and who thereupon sold all his property and absconded from the country before the Bill became due, could not henceforth be made bankrupt until after the bill had arrived at maturity, and after all the property had been abstracted. This was an entire change in the law as it now existed, and one which would give rise to great frauds. The Select Committee, however, having been divided on this point, he should not revive it. He believed it also to be a great mistake to make the amount of dividend the criterion of a bankrupt's honesty. The effect of it was to induce persons to obtain a large amount of goods on the eve of bankruptcy, which they knew they could not pay for, in order to raise the dividend to 10s. in the pound, and he feared this would give rise to frauds which the penal clauses would not sufficiently check. The valuation of the assets—if this principle were adopted— ought to be made at the time of the adjudication. This would be less objectionable, and the bankrupt ought not to be punished on account of difficulty or neglect in realizing those assets, being a matter over which he had no control.
THE LORD CHANCELLORdenied that the Bill made the dividend the sole
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criterion. A bankrupt's liability would not continue if the failure to pay 10s. in the pound arose from faulty collection of the assets; and it would cease if the creditors expressed an opinion that the bankruptcy was due to unavoidable misfortune.
Motion agreed to; Bill road 3a accordingly, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

PRESENTATION OF "BENEFICES BELONGING TO ROMAN CATHOLICS, &c, BILL—(No. 209.)
(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)

SECOND READING.
THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLsaid, that his most rev. Friend (the Archbishop of Canterbury), who was unavoidably absent, had requested him to move the second reading of this Bill. The object was to repeal a clause in an Act of William and Mary, which provided that clergymen presented to benefices by the Universities on account of the patrons being Roman Catholics should forfeit such livings if they failed to reside during the whole year, with the exception of sixty days. The general Act of 1 & 2 Vict., c. 106, allowed other incumbents throe months' absence, the penalty of exceeding it being simply ecclesiastical censure, and this Bill proposed to bring the former class under the same rule.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol.)
LORD CAMOYSsaid, he had expected, considering the liberality of sentiment of the most rev. Prelate, that the object of the Bill was to repeal the disqualification under which Roman Catholic patrons alone laboured. Surely, there could be no greater danger to the Church of England from Roman Catholic patrons than from Jews and Dissenters, every presentation being subject to the license of the Bishop? Roman Catholics were now obliged to sell the next presentation; but, if the incumbent died before this was done, one of the Universities presented; but such patronage might be relinquished without much loss, there being but a small number of livings, held by the Duke of Norfolk, himself, and other Roman Catholic Peers.
THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLsaid, he could hardly undertake the responsibility of stating what the opinion of his most rev. Friend the Archbishop of Canterbury was on the subject mentioned by the noble Lord. For his own part, he had no objection to say that there was, in his opinion, a considerable amount of inconvenience in connection with the patronage as exercised by the Universities.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.