Lords Sitting of 16 July 1869

MINUTES.
— PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading — Greenwich Hospital (165); Stipendiary Magistrates (Deputies)* (179); Prisons (Scotland) Administration Act (1860) Amendment* (159); Court of Session Act (1868) Amendment * (101); Local Government Supplemental * (140).
Referred to Select Committee—Imprisonment for Debt (168).
Committee—Bankruptcy (154).
Committee — Report — Pensions Commutation * (138); Judicial Statistics (Scotland) * (151).
Third Reading—Court of Common Pleas (County Palatine of Lancaster)* (186); Diplomatic Salaries, &c* (128); Poor Law Board Provisional Orders Confirmation* (142), and passed.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL—(No. 165.)
(The Earl of Camperdown)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to extend the principle of the Act of 1865, the policy of which, originated by the
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noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Somerset), was deliberately approved by Parliament. That Act admitted to the benefits of the Hospital all seamen and marines as long as they were infirm and helpless, and it established a system of out-patients, giving the inmates the option of returning home, and offering to all seamen fifty-five years of age, who had been for five years naval pensioners, a pension of 5d., and to all seamen seventy years of age, who had been ten years naval pensioners, 9d. a day. Within the last three or four months this great boon, which applied to seamen whether they had been in the Hospital or not, had been carried out. The present Bill was to be read by that Act. It proposed no alteration in the terms of admission, but it went a Little further with regard to out-patients, offering resident inmates, if they chose to return to their homes, the retention of their naval pension of 5d. or 9d. a day, and also such further special pension as, if they had been inmates before the 1st of January last, would make up the sum to £36 10 s. a year, and if admitted since to £27 10 s. a year. The 4th clause allowed invalids who had been admitted

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to the benefits of the Greenwich. Hospital infirmary the same advantages; but the pension would be granted only as long as they were infirm and helpless. The system of out-patients was recommended in 1860, by the Commission presided over by Sir William Hutt, and in 1864 the noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Somerset) wrote a celebrated Memorandum upon it, which resulted in the Act of 1865. In October of that year, when it came into force, 987 out of 1,382 in-pensioners at once left, of whom only thirty-one had returned; and their health had much improved, the death-rate being now only 6·4 per cent, as compared with an average for twenty years of 12·3 per cent. The income of the Hospital was now between £137,000 and £138,000, and in the present year it was proposed to expend £13,000 on the infirmary, it being calculated that 200 men would remain there, though he believed the number would really be much less. With reference to the "Greenwich sixpence"—a monthly contribution which every merchant seaman up to 1834 was obliged to make—the Admiralty had felt that the men who had thus contributed had an equitable claim, though not a legal right, and they, therefore, proposed to pay over £4,000 per annum to the Board of Trade, for the benefit of men who had contributed for ten years prior to 1834, and who were at that time eighteen years of age. The recipients would, therefore, be upwards of sixty years of age; and as the pensions allotted lapsed the funds would be applied to out-pensions for the seamen of the Royal Navy. The buildings it was intended to utilize for purposes connected with the naval service, by assigning them to some department of the Government or to any charitable society. Even if no rent were received, a sum of £5,000, now expended in keeping up the Hospital, would thus be saved; the right, however, of resuming possession at a month's notice would be reserved to the Admiralty. The noble Earl concluded by moving that the Bill be now read a second time.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

CONSTRUCTION OF THE HOUSE.

  RESOLUTION.
  THE EARL or CARNARVON: Your Lordships will remember that a Select Committee was appointed last year to consider whether any and what arrangements could be made to remedy the defective construction of the House, with reference to hearing; and that after a number of sittings, we presented a Report, which contained some interesting designs by Mr. Barry, the architect. The recommendations of that Report, however, have not been carried out, because the Members were equally divided in opinion as to some of them. I think there will be no difference of opinion among your Lordships, as to the very defective acoustic properties of the House. I admit that noble Lords sitting on the Treasury or front Opposition Bench have facilities for speaking and hearing; but the majority who sit on the back Benches, and below the Gangway, are very inconveniently situated. There is a large space overhead, and also a large space underground—for there are catacombs or chambers extending the whole length of the House—to which the voice penetrates. It is quite true that other Legislative Chambers, such as those at Paris, Florence, and Washington, are all much larger than this; but their construction is much more convenient for their objects, and much better adapted for hearing. In each there is a tribune, or some place from which the Members speak. As to the remedy, I have no doubt. I believe it consists in a smaller chamber for ordinary purposes and ordinary business, when you meet in small numbers, and when the business may be fairly transacted within a smaller area. Various designs were drawn up by Mr. Barrry for the assistance of the Committee on that point; and some of the Committee were of opinion that the robing room might, at an expense of £40,000, be converted into a chamber with good acoustic properties and convenient access, containing 321 seats, as compared with 466 in the present House. The Committee, however, were equally divided on that point; and a tie being always regarded as a negative, I will not enter further into that proposal. I will now deal with the improvements which I think may be made in the present House. If you desire to make this

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  Chamber a satisfactory one for speaking and hearing, three improvements are required. Yon might lover the ceiling, as in the House of Commons; and I have very little doubt that the result would be satisfactory; but, on the other hand, you would greatly detract from the architectural proportions of the room. Secondly, you might have a glass screen behind the upper Bench and the Woolsack, and so limit the area within which our discussions are carried on. This plan, however, a small majority of the Committee disapproved. Thirdly—and this, perhaps, would be the greatest improvement— you might project the Galleries further, which would greatly enlarge the space at your disposal, and, I believe, would act as a kind of sounding board. All these propositions, however, were negatived by the Committee; and, inasmuch as I was Chairman, I am performing simply a Ministerial duty in laying their recommendations before the House — leaving it to your Lordships to act as you may think proper. The improvements to which, with one exception, we unanimously agreed, are of a minor kind, but, I believe, would materially conduce to the comfort and general convenience of the House. The first is, that the seats in the body of the House be so re-arranged as to allow an additional interval, not exceeding six inches, between the second and third Benches. Now, the width of this building is exactly the same as that of the House of Commons, and the number of Benches is also the same; but the interval between the second and third is, for some unaccountable reason, six inches less than in that House. I propose to enlarge the interval to that extent, which would be convenient to many of your Lordships. Of course, this would, to a certain extent, narrow the floor, but only to a slight degree, and it would but make it the same width as that of the House of Commons. Secondly, I propose that the Gangways, on each side of the Treasury and front Opposition Benches, be widened by six inches. It must have been observed how frequently the Gangways are incommoded by Peers passing and re-passing; and though this alteration would involve the narrowing of the table, it should be remembered that it is constructed for four persons, and that only three sit at it. The third proposal is, that the further part of the space
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  below the Bar should be screened off, in accordance with Mr. Barry's design. It now is rather a corridor, connecting the two side Lobbies, than the Bar itself; and it is constantly crowded, sometimes by Members of the House of Commons, but oftener by strangers, agents, and persons on business, who retire thither to discuss the details of Bills which are before the House, or other matters. The hum of conversation thence arising is often very considerable, and is an inconvenience both to your Lordships and to the reporters in the performance of their duties. I propose that this space should remain as a passage, and to this I think there can be but little objection. The fourth proposition is a somewhat larger one. At present the space immediately below the Bar is partly occupied by chairs and seats, usually occupied by ladies. It has been proposed that these chairs should be removed, the ladies being transferred to one of the Galleries which are now occupied by Members of the House of Commons, and that the whole of that space should be re-seated. You have at present twenty seats below the Bar, and you would thus obtain sixty additional seats, the whole or a considerable proportion of which the Committee wished to be allotted to Members of the House of Commons. I am quite aware that such a course would be returning good for evil, for the House of Commons, in a recent re-construction of their House, have removed us from the seats under the Gallery which we were accustomed to use when we visited that House, and have sent us to a most inconvenient place upstairs, where we cannot hear the debates so satisfactorily. This, too, is a serious inconvenience to Public Business, for there was formerly no better opportunity of arranging and discussing points of importance between Members of both Houses than that afforded under the Gallery. I should be the last, however, to wish to retaliate on the House of Commons by any hostile arrangement. I believe they acted under great pressure in regard to space, and I should hope that they will, on public grounds, re-consider the question. Meanwhile, if we have an opportunity of affording them greater comfort, it is our duty and policy to do so. By carrying the sides of the Bar flush with the central portion of it, which is now advanced into the House, a sacrifice of not less than twenty seats

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  will be involved, and after the experience of the recent debates I should be sorry to lose any seats. Tour Lordships must have seen that, partly from the change in the system of proxies, and partly from the important nature of the question, the House was crowded, and there was not an inch of room which could be spared. By carrying the Benches at the Throne end of the House a little further, an equal number of seats might be gained without much inconvenience, so as to compensate this sacrifice. Even if that fifth proposal be objected to I should still urge the previous one; for in the House of Commons, before the recent change, the seats under the Gallery, though generally reserved for Peers, were very often occupied by Members of that House; and if an extension towards the Throne end be not sanctioned it would still be desirable to re-seat that space either for our own use or for the use of the House of Commons, as might, under particular circumstances, seem advisable. The sixth Resolution is, that the iron bar which now fences off the upper part of the Bar be removed. I am aware that the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees has an insuperable objection to its removal; but when the House is transacting ordinary business there is no advantage in keeping Members of the House of Commons four feet from the front of the Bar by means of this rail—and I believe that counsel are allowed at the Appeal Sittings to come up to the Bar. The last proposal is that the Reporters' Gallery be brought forward by not more than four feet. We know that that Gallery is very much crowded, and that it is extremely defective, the reporters having' to discharge their duties under great difficulties. The addition of one bench would satisfy all their requirements, and would bring them somewhat further into the House, thus enabling them to hear better. Considering the indistinct tones in which speeches are sometimes delivered, and the hum of conversation which prevails, it is almost a marvel that our debates are reported with such extrordinary fidelity as they ordinarily are, and that so few inaccuracies occur, and it is desirable that we should facilitate the task by so simple and advantageous an arrangement. There are other questions which the Committee considered, and they recommended the conferring of
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  a certain power on the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees, or other Peer, that deserves consideration, but I do not bring it forward now. Another question is that of the ventilation of the House, of which we have had an opportunity of judging during the last few weeks. Your Lordships would be rather surprised if you were to watch the extremely complicated and highly scientific arrangements which exist under your feet for bringing in air, subjecting it to various processes, and returning it to the House. Complaints have recently been made on all sides, sometimes of the frigid and sometimes of the torrid zone. I do not, however, deal with that subject at present. The changes which I have explained would not, of course, make the House in any degree perfect. They are the mere minimum of those which I desire to see, but I believe they would add very considerably to the comfort of the House, and may be made without in any degree affecting the architectural effect of the building. I have no strong feeling on the subject, for these improvements fall short of those which I should desire; but as Chairman of the Committee I thought myself bound to submit them to your Lordships' consideration.
  Moved to resolve,

  1. That the seats in the body of the House be so re-arranged as to allow an additional interval not exceeding six inches between the second and third benches:

  2. That the gangways on each side of the Treasury and front Opposition Benches be widened by six inches:

  3. That the further part of the space below the Bar be screened off in accordance with paragraph IV., section 1, of the Report of the Select Committee:

  4. That the sides of the Bar be carried forward four feet so as to be in a line with the present centre portion of the Bar, and that the space available be re-seated in accordance with paragraph IV., section 2, of the Report of the Select Committee:

  5. That the seats sacrificed in the body of the House by the above alteration be replaced by lengthening to a corresponding extent the seats towards the Throne end of the House:

  6. That the rail by which the upper part of the Bar is fenced off be removed during the ordinary business of the House:

  7. That the Reporters Gallery be enlarged and brought forward by not more than four feet.— (The Earl of Carnarvon.)

  EARL GRANVILLE: Your Lordships must, no doubt, be extremely obliged to any Member of the House who takes a

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  great deal of trouble in any matter connected with your personal convenience. I own that I have been rather sceptical with regard to the badness of this House as to its acoustic properties. To a certain degree I am somewhat of an authority on this subject, for, in the first place, I have been a constant attendant here for twenty-three years; in the second place, I am rather deaf; and in the third place, I frequently mumble; and while I am sometimes surprised at the accuracy with which I am reported, I think I am oftener than any other Member reported to have been perfectly inaudible in the Gallery. Now, I believe it depends very much upon ourselves. When we speak out and the House chooses to listen the room performs its function perfectly. When we do not, of course it is not to be expected in any chamber that a different result should be arrived at. The room has not so much to do with the matter as has been supposed. I say that, however, with some qualification, for the noble Earl, during the whole of his interesting-remarks, did not raise his voice beyond a conversational pitch, and during a considerable portion of them the House was not perfectly silent—yet I could hear without difficulty every word he said. With regard to the Committee, I am grateful to them for not having reported in favour of four changes which I think would have been objectionable. As to the first I think it would have been exceedingly inconvenient to have a smaller House for ordinary use. As to their last three proposals, I very much doubt the advantage of them. I am not sure whether the bringing of the Galleries forward would improve or deteriorate the acoustic qualities of the House. With regard to the Resolutions that have been agreed to, I may say there is no doubt that Committee was composed of Members most competent to consider the question; but it was a small Committee, and it seems that opinions were pretty equally balanced on most of the points raised. I think, therefore, the House would hardly be prepared on a question of so much detail to adopt at once all these suggestions en bloc. It would be much bettor to empower the Committee sitting at this moment with reference to arrangements proposed by the Government as to the Dining and Committee Rooms to put themselves into communication with the proper repre-
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  sentatives of the Government with reference to some of these questions. I should deprecate acting at once in the matter. I cannot help adverting to one point with regard to the question how far the House itself is to blame. For the last few years our debates have been miserably reported: now, I think anyone who has read the Reports this year must have been struck by the immense improvement in those Reports. I believe they are in no degree inferior to the Reports of the speeches delivered in the other House, and I cannot help thinking that this very fact shows that we have laid too much blame on the construction of the House as being unfit for hearing. All these details, however, having been carefully considered by the Committee, are well worthy of consideration, and they had better be left to indirect communication with the Government than be decided at once.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, that he came very much to the same conclusion as his noble Friend (Earl Granville). While he thought that some of the suggestions made were practical and valuable, he doubted very much the prudence of adopting them en bloc. He thought that inconvenience might arise from giving space for Members of the House of Commons so far advanced into the body of the House, as it would be, by having that space advanced to the level of the front of the Bar—he thought their private conversation might be an inconvenience to the proceedings of their Lordships. He would rather suggest that the Bar should be removed to a level with the place where Members of the House of Commons now were, as this would give them room for an additional cross-Bench for the accommodation of Peers. He might add, however, that he was far from wishing to curtail the space at present allotted to Members of the House of Commons, and should be very glad if further and more convenient places could be assigned them in one of the Galleries. He admitted that upon all these suggestions there might be difference of opinion; but he would advert to one point that was not in the Resolutions, upon which there would be, he thought, a good deal of unanimity, and that was, that the state of ventilation in the House should be improved. It was a matter that eminently affected their Lordships' comfort and health. On

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  Monday night he never felt the heat greater in any room that he ever sat in —indeed, it seemed as if hot air were being purposely pumped into the chamber: and yet, whilst hot air prevailed above, the feet of noble Lords were exposed to currents of cold air which came in from below. He trusted some other mode of ventilation would be adopted, for on the back-Benches there had been universal complaints, and though the noble Earl opposite was disposed to treat the matter rather jocularly, it was one which seriously affected their Lordships' comfort.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had already requested the Clerk of the Parliaments to ask the eminent gentleman who superintended the ventilation to attend the Committee next week on that subject. These difficulties of ventilation were probably greater than their Lordships in general imagined.
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEconcurred in the complaints of the ventilation. It seemed almost impossible to admit fresh air without causing a strong draught, and the cold air all came underneath the Benches, while the Bar, where during the recent debates there was a great crowd, was without ventilation. Dr. Percy, indeed, informed him that the thermometer at the door marked only sixty-three degrees; but the ventilation of the House could not be judged by thermometer in different situations, for the temperature differed very much in different parts. Dr. Percy had remarked that it was not his own scheme, and that he only did the best he could; but if he were to sit on those Benches he would soon perceive the inconvenience, and it was high time that an improvement should be effected.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he wished to make his own addition to these tales of woe, and to call attention to the cold experienced on the Benches occupied by himself and his right rev. Brethren. He believed that this was chiefly owing to the opening of the door of the Ladies' Galleries, which closely communicated with the external air, the consequence being that not only did the light of bright eyes pour down, but also a draught of cold air enough to carry off the heads of those sitting on the right rev. Bench. It would not be surprising if this affected their speeches, and he hoped therefore that the peculiar dangers of this peculiar
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  Bench would be taken into consideration.
  THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDcomplained of the cold draught to which Peers sitting below the Gangway on the Ministerial side were exposed. He hoped that when the defect pointed out by the right rev. Prelate was remedied some attention would be paid to the opposite extremity of the House.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: After what we have heard from the right rev. Prelate and the noble Duke I must say I heartily wish that I sat where those most pleasant draughts of air are felt. It appears to be one among the many advantages of supporting the Government that fresh air is supplied to their side of the House, while the unfortunate Gentlemen who sit with the Opposition are condemned to be stifled by air that must either proceed from the Styx or Phlegethon, or from the main drain of the metropolitan sewers. I have been in many buildings where bad smells were experienced, but I never felt anything like that which was experienced in this House on one of the sultry days that we have had lately. One of the difficulties in respect to ventilation is that all persons are not agreed about it —that some can stand a great deal more heat, while others can bear a great deal more fresh air than their neighbours. I do not know whether it would be possible to invent something of a glass case in which the right rev. Bench could sit where they would be free from these draughts; but I believe that the more we discourage these artificial systems of ventilation, according to which hot air must be made to descend and cold air to go up, and which send in all sorts of air. where it is not wanted, and resort to the natural remedy of opening the windows, the better it will be for our general comfort.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he hoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) would accede to the suggestion of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and not press for a decision of the House on the present occasion. He was in favour of the first Resolution, but should deprecate any considerable reduction of the breadth of the table; if six inches were taken off each side that would be as much as could well be spared. With regard to sitting accommodation for their Lordships, he thought their Lordships

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  must feel that it was smaller instead of larger than could be desired. He thought Mr. Barry's suggestion with respect to the space at the Bar was particularly good. If strangers were admitted during the debates to the space that was thrown forward for the use of counsel at the hearing of appeals, the conversation that would be carried on there might be found very inconvenient to their Lordships. He would prefer that the Bar should be left as it was, except as to the re-arrangement of the seats in it, which would be found very advantageous, whether the space there was to be given up, as at present, to the ladies, or was partially or entirely to be given up to Members of the House of Commons. He believed the architect had a great objection to bringing the Reporters' Gallery further forward. When the Gallery was thrown forward on a former occasion it was found to improve the hearing in the House. Whether by bringing it still farther forward it would be found more advantageous in regard to hearing he did not know; but if that could be done without architectural inconvenience it might be desirable.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he would like to see the Reporters' Gallery advanced and seats given on each side, and he thought the alteration would not interfere with the architectural appearance of the House or with the hearing in it. He bore his testimony to the horrors endured in that House during the last few days from the proceedings of the ventilation philosophers in whose power they were, and he must say, on behalf of those who occupied the Government Bench, that they did not get the benefit of those delightful currents of cool air which were said to be supplied to their supporters. He joined in deprecating those ingenious contrivances by which when the weather was cold they suffered from extreme cold, and when it was hot they suffered from extreme heat, and for his part he would much prefer that they should be relegated to the common-sense practice of ventilating by means of the windows.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was exceedingly happy to accede to the suggestion that this matter should be referred to the Committee, as had been suggested by the noble Earl(Earl Granville.)
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.—THE IRISH CHURCH BILL.—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it might be for the convenience of their Lordships if he stated that, as there was every reason to believe that this Bill would come up from the other House that evening, after the consideration by the Commons of their Lordships' Amendments, he proposed that the Bill in the form in which it left the other House should be printed, so as to be distributed among their Lordships to-morrow morning; and in that case, thinking it desirable for every reason that there should be as little delay as possible in the matter, he now gave notice that the Bill with the Amendments would be brought under their Lordships' consideration on Monday next.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he understood that the alterations made in the measure by the Commons were very large, and would require careful attention from their Lordships. He thought it would be exceedingly inconvenient and hardly consistent with a due sense of the importance of the subject, or even with the respect due to the other House, if their Lordships were to consider the Bill on the very next night after it came up from the Commons. They would scarcely take that course in the case of an ordinary trumpery Bill. He earnestly trusted that the noble Earl would fix Tuesday instead of Monday.
  EARL GRANVILLEremarked that Monday was not the very next, but the third night after Friday.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, that it had at one time been thought that the House of Commons would conclude the consideration of the Amendments last night, and then it might not have been unreasonable for their Lordships to consider the Amendments on Monday. The House of Commons, however, would continue the consideration to-night, and as their Lordships' House did not meet to-morrow (Saturday), it would not be a convenient day for exchanging opinions upon the subject. He thought that it would be only respectful to the House of Commons that their Lordships should give very careful and deliberate attention to the course which they themselves should pursue when they came to consider the course which had been taken by the House of Commons. It had already gone abroad—only, however, in

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  the ordinary channels of information, and not upon the responsibility of the Government—that Tuesday would be the earliest night upon which the Amendments of the Commons could be considered by their Lordships' House. He thought that, under the circumstances, the proper day for the consideration of the Amendments would be Tuesday. He agreed with the noble Earl that there ought to be no unnecessary delay; but it was no unnecessary delay that one day should elapse between the receiving the Bill when re-printed and taking it into consideration—for Sunday ought not to be counted.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEwas understood to recommend that the consideration of the Bill should be taken on Tuesday.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that after the expression of opinion which he had heard he would defer to their Lordships' wishes, and fix the consideration of the Bill for Tuesday.

  BANKRUPTCY BILL—(No. 154.)
  (The Lord Chancellor.)
  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he understood that some noble and learned Lords were anxious that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee; but he did not see any reason to think that they would not be able to dispose of the Bill satisfactorily in a Committee of the Whole House. He had been favoured with numerous Amendments, but there was only one of considerable importance, which related to compensations. There was none with respect to the principle of the Bill, and there was nothing that he saw to prevent their Lordships from going on with the Bill at once in Committee.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD ROMILLYsaid, he should feel very much obliged to his noble and learned Friend if he would allow the Bill to be referred to a Select Committee. It would not in the slightest degree delay the Bill. He would undertake himself to adjourn his Court for two or three days; his noble and learned Friend opposite had consented to aid him, and
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  so had Ms noble and learned Friend (Lord Westbury) near him. He was quite sure that, while there would be no real delay to the progress of the Bill by referring it to a Select Committee, they would be enabled to deal with it in a much more satisfactory manner than would be possible in a Committee of the House. He regretted to say that he had a good many suggestions to make which he had not yet been able to put into the form of Amendments. His noble and learned Friend seemed to think from the fact of the Bill having been in their hands for six or seven days that there had been sufficient time to draw up Amendments; but he must remind his noble and learned Friend that he had six hours every day to spend in his Court, and he really had not been able to consider the mode of putting his Amendments into shape. He held in his hand a letter signed by six firms of solicitors of the City of London, all of the very highest eminence, and they were of opinion, with respect to Clauses 6, 7, and 11, that if the Bill passed in its present shape, any trader's credit might at any moment be utterly destroyed. There were many other points which he could mention and to which he should be desirous of calling attention in Committee, but he would reserve these matters for the Report. He earnestly hoped his noble and learned Friend would allow the Bill to be referred to a Select Committee.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, there was one thing for which he did not think their Lordships' House very well adapted, and that was to go through a Bill of that kind late in the evening with an attendance of from ten to twelve Members, and his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) in the Chair with his powerful energy to dispose of Amendments. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack had said that the Amendments, though very numerous, were, with one exception, not very important. For himself he must say he had endeavoured to read the Bill and understand it, and there were a great many Amendments which he should wish to introduce, but of which he had not been able to give notice, sitting, as he had to do, on appeals in that House during the day, and in the evening having other business to attend to. As the noble and learned Lord (Lord Romilly) had promised to

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  devote two or three days to the subject, he would willingly join Kim, because he believed the matter could be dealt with more satisfactorily in Committee than it would be in the Whole House.
  LORD WESTBURYsaid, although he had promised the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack to do his best to avoid sending the Bill to a Select Committee, the number of the Amendments of which notice had been given, extending over fourteen pages, obliged him to come to the conclusion that the Bill could best be dealt with in a Select Committee, upon which he would be most happy to serve; and he had no doubt that in the course of three days the Committee would arrive at very satisfactory conclusions. He would do nothing to imperil the Bill, but its provisions were of very great importance, and required to be carefully considered. He was delighted to find that one of the main features of this Bill was the appointment of a Chief Judge in Bankruptcy—an arrangement he had always advocated, and, indeed, had incorporated in his Bill of 1861; but when that proposal was struck out of that Bill its vital principle was gone, and on this account he objected to the enactment being described by his name.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that the present proposal for the appointment of a Chief Judge in connection with all existing machinery of the Bankruptcy Law was a very different thing from the proposition of his noble and learned Friend's Bill to abolish the Commissioners and appoint a Chief Judge in their stead. He agreed in the desirability of referring the Bill to a Select Committee.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORfeared that a reference of the Bill to a Select Committee would cause it to be postponed to another Session. This would be greatly regretted by an immense number of mercantile men, who did not wish to see in another year that 6,500 bankruptcies out of 9,000 should yield no dividend. During the afternoon he had been waited on by a large deputation, representing thirty-seven Chambers of Commerce, most earnestly praying that the Bill should pass this Session. Their Petition he had already presented to their Lordships' House. Besides this, the Bill had been considered in the other House by a number of Gentlemen eminent as barristers, solicitors, and
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  mercantile men, who sat day after day in Committee of the Whole House; and, surely, if this could be done in the other House of Parliament, their Lordships could consider the Bill in Committee of the Whole House, especially as that Committee would be more select than the Committee of the House of Commons.
  LORD ROMILLYthen moved an Amendment to leave out all the words after ("That") and insert ("the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.")
  On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Motion? Resolved in the Negative. Bill referred to a Select Committee accordingly; The Committee to be named on Monday next.
  And, on Monday, July 19, the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  Ld. Chancellor.

  L. Westbury.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  L. Romilly.

  V. Halifax.

  L. Colonsay.

  L. Overstone.

  L. Cairns.

  L. Helper.

  L. Penzance.

  L. Chelmsford.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read, and discharged; and Bill referred to the Select Committee on the Bankruptcy Bill.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.

  IRISH CHURCH BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with several of the amendments made by the Lords agreed to; several amendments agreed to, with amendments; and several other amendments disagreed to, for which they assign Reasons: The said Seasons, and Bill, with the amendments, to be printed; and to be taken into consideration on Tuesday next. (Nos. 196 and 197.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past One o'clock, A.M., till Monday next, Eleven o'clock.