Lords Sitting of 16 February 1869

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
Five of the Lords Commissioners, namely—The LORD CHANCELLOR, The LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl de Grey and Ripon), The LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Earl of Kimberley), The LORD CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (The Viscount Sydney), and The MARQUESS OF AILESBURY (Master of the Horse), being in their Robes, and seated on a Form between the Throne and the Woolsack, commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod to let the Commons know "The Lords Commissioners
24
desire their immediate Attendance in this House."
Who being come, with their Speaker—
The LORD CHANCELLOR delivered HER MAJESTY'S Speech to both Houses of Parliament, as follows:—
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"I RECUR to your advice at the earliest period permitted by the arrangements consequent upon the retirement of the late Administration.
"And it is with special interest that I commend to you the resumption of your labours at a time when the popular branch of the Legislature has been chosen with the advantage of a greatly enlarged enfranchisement of My faithful and loyal people.
"I am able to inform you that My relations with all Foreign Powers continue to be most friendly; and I have the satisfaction to believe that they cordially share in the desire by which I am animated for the maintenance of peace. I shall at all times be anxious to use My best exertions for the promotion of this most important object.
"In concurrence with My Allies I have endeavoured, by friendly interposition, to effect a settlement of the differences which have arisen between Turkey and Greece; and I rejoice that our joint efforts have aided in preventing any serious interruption of tranquillity in the Levant.
"I have been engaged in negotiations with the United States of North America for the settlement of questions which affect the interests and the international relations of the two countries; and it is My earnest hope that the result of these negotiations may be to place on a firm and durable basis the friendship which should ever exist between England and America.
"I have learnt with grief that disturbances have occurred in New Zealand,

25
and that at one spot they have been attended with circumstances of atrocity. I am confident that the Colonial Government and people will not be wanting either in energy to repress the outbreaks, or in the prudence and moderation which I trust may prevent their recurrence.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"The Estimates for the expenditure of the coming financial year will be submitted to you. They have been framed with a careful regard to the efficiency of the Services, and they will exhibit a diminished charge upon the country.
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"The ever-growing wants and diversified interests of the Empire will necessarily bring many questions of public policy under your review.
"The condition of Ireland permits Me to believe that you will be spared the painful necessity which was felt by the late Parliament for narrowing the securities of personal liberty in that country by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.
"I recommend that you should inquire into the present modes of conducting Parliamentary and Municipal Elections, and should consider whether it may be possible to provide any further guarantees for their tranquillity, purity, and freedom.
"A measure will be brought under your notice for the relief of some classes of occupiers from hardships in respect of Rating, which appear to be capable of remedy.
"You will also be invited to direct your attention to Bills for the extension and improvement of Education in Scotland; and for rendering the considerable revenues of the Endowed Schools of England more widely effectual for the purposes of instruction.
"A measure will be introduced for
26
applying the principle of representation to the control of the County Rate, by the establishment of Financial Boards for Counties.
"It will be proposed to you to recur to the subject of Bankruptcy, with a view to the more effective distribution of Assets and to the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.
"The Ecclesiastical arrangements of Ireland will be brought under your consideration at a very early date, and the legislation which will be necessary in order to their final adjustment will make the largest demands upon the wisdom of Parliament.
"I am persuaded that, in the prosecution of the work, you will bear a careful regard to every legitimate interest which it may involve, and that you will be governed by the constant aim to promote the welfare of religion through the principles of equal justice, to secure the action of the undivided feeling and opinion of Ireland on the side of loyalty and law, to efface the memory of former contentions, and to cherish the sympathies of an affectionate people.
"In every matter of public interest, and especially in one so weighty, I pray that the Almighty may never cease to guide your deliberations, and may bring them to a happy issue."
Then the Commons withdrew.
REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR IRELAND—The Earl of Rosse, in the room of the late Lord Farnham, deceased, with the Certificate of the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland annexed thereto—Writs, &c. Delivered (on Oath), and Certificate read.

SELECT VESTRIES.
Bill, pro formâ, read 1a.
THE QUEEN'S SPEECHhaving been reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR;—

ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY ON HER MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
THE EARL OF CARYSFORT, rising to move an humble Address to Her Majesty in answer to Her Majesty's most gracious Speech, said: My Lords, it is with great diffidence that I rise to address your Lordships for the first time, knowing, as I do, that there are many other Members of your Lordships' House who would perform the task that I am about to attempt with far more ability. I have not even that plea of youth and inexperience for your Lordships' indulgence which has been often put forward by many who have been placed in a similar position, for though I have never felt myself called upon to take an active part in the debates of the other House, I have, nevertheless, for ten years had the privilege of listening to and profiting by them. I can only, therefore, say I am
"A plain, blunt man;
I have neither wit, nor words, nor worth,
Action, nor utterance, nor the power of speech
To stir men's blood;"
and, as such, I throw myself upon your Lordships' indulgence. I will only solicit your attention while I briefly touch upon the different matters brought before your notice in the order in which they stand in Her Majesty's gracious Speech.
My Lords, in reviewing the topics recommended to the consideration of Parliament, I cannot help saying that I see rocks looming in the distance around which the breakers are foaming; but at the same time I believe that the vessel of the State is well manned, that its rigging is strong and new, and that its pilots are good pilots, whose well-tried zeal and ability peculiarly fit them to steer her through all her difficulties into quiet waters. It is satisfactory to reflect, moreover, that they are supported by a new Parliament representing a new constituency, which has been rendered, by the co-operation of all parties, more extensive and more popular than has ever hitherto been the case.
I am sure that it will be a matter of congratulation, to your Lordships that Her Majesty, in the opening paragraphs of her Speech is able to inform you that her present relations with Foreign Powers are of a most peaceful and friendly character, and that through the mediation of the Powers assembled in the Conference at Paris, the difficulties
28
which have arisen between Greece and Turkey are likely to be peacefully settled. I cannot avoid expressing my admiration at the moderation and forbearance which have been displayed by the Turkish Government throughout the whole crisis, which we hope has now been surmounted. At the same time I am sure that in yielding to the friendly representations of the great Powers, Greece will, not only be doing that which is most consistent with her own dignity, but she will be showing a laudable disposition to contribute to the maintenance of the general peace.
But, my Lords, great as must be our satisfaction at learning that the ominous cloud that has darkened the Eastern horizon is about to be dispelled, still greater must be our satisfaction at the announcement that the disputes with America which have arisen from claims and counter-claims are likely to be firmly and durably settled by means of a Convention entered into by the predecessors of the present Government, and which, I trust, will be the means of averting a suicidal war, and placing these two nations upon that friendly footing which is so desirable. Whether the result of that Convention be successful or not depends upon the action of the American Senate; but as we have obtained the approval of the United States Government we are relieved from all imputation of delaying the equitable settlement of the existing difficulties. And I must in justice say, that should this Convention meet with a favourable issue, much of its success will be attributable to the frank and loyal endeavours of the honoured Minister of the United States, who, since he has been amongst us, has been most untiring in his zeal to bring about friendly relations between our country and his.
My Lords, the state of New Zealand calls for serious attention. I do not intend to dwell upon this subject, however, as my noble Friend who seconds the Address is so much better acquainted with all colonial matters than I am.
There are other matters of importance which are brought before your notice in the Royal Speech. They will require your serious attention, but they are chiefly of such a character as not to call forth any party opposition, and I will not, therefore, take up your Lordships' time in referring to them. I will only

29
mention that your attention is particularly directed to the growing importance of local taxation, and to a good measure for improving middle-class education, and for employing more efficiently the considerable revenues of our endowed schools.
My Lords, I will now come to what I may call the chief paragraphs of Her Majesty's Speech—those which refer to the vital question of Ireland. My Lords, the bitter feelings engendered by centuries of misrule are not be eradicated in a single day, nor are the unhappy memories associated with the past, darkened as they are by penal laws and the injustice arising from religious ascendancy sanctioned by the State, to be obliterated suddenly from the minds of a people sensitive and high-spirited like the Irish. I am happy to think that a brighter day is dawning for Ireland; that "justice to Ireland," is no longer the mere expression of a Minister or the watchword of a party; it has become the fixed and firm resolve of the national will. The national conscience is at length awakened to the conviction that Ireland can no longer be governed upon exceptional principles, and the national voice, responding to its conscience, has pronounced, with an emphasis not to be mistaken, that our future policy towards Ireland must be a policy of right and justice, and must have for its object the conciliation of her people. I know well enough that during the last forty years much has been done to ameliorate the condition of Ireland; but much yet remains to be accomplished; and I cannot help thinking that, now that the mischievous agitation caused by the Fenian movement has in a great measure subsided, the moment is peculiarly propitious for the introduction of measures such as are likely to satisfy the Irish people. My Lords, I learn with great pleasure that the first step which the Government propose to take in this direction is the disestablishment and disendowment of the Irish Church. No doubt the attention of Parliament will be invited in a short time, to the consideration of this important question; and I am confident that when the policy of the Government is propounded in detail it will be found that due regard has been paid to vested interests. It is impossible to conceal from ourselves that the Irish Protestant Church has never
30
taken a firm hold on the affections of the great mass of the people; that at this moment the Protestants are but 700,000 to nearly 5,000,000 of Roman Catholics; and that on the whole the Church of the minority has been a signal; failure. Long ago, Pitt, in one of his speeches, pointed out that the Irish Parliament felt that the claims of the Roman Catholics threatened the existence of Protestant ascendancy; while, on the other hand, the great body of the Catholics felt the establishment of the Protestant national Church, and their exclusion from the exercise of certain rights and privileges, to be a grievance. I am myself a staunch member of the Protestant Church, and I as staunchly believe that the disestablishment of the Irish Church will not weaken it in any degree. On the contrary, I agree with the opinion of the noble Earl (Earl Russell), who, in one of his Letters on the State of Ireland, declares his belief that like the sapling which, when removed from the green-house a tender and fragile plant into the open air, grew from a little feathery bush into a magnificent tree, so the Irish Protestant Church, when no longer dandled and nurtured by the State, will be stronger from the encounter with the fresh and vigorous breezes of heaven, and the light poured down upon it. And to put it on the grounds of common fairness, I will ask if the reasonable demands of millions of Her Majesty's subjects call for the adoption of this measure, are they to be rashly rejected because, in the opinion of some persons, certain contingent evils may possibly arise from it? Let Ireland no longer be ruled by a rod of iron—let the loyalty and love of her children be appealed to. For 300 years that religion, which to them—whatever its errors to us—has been a cherished faith, has been exposed to opprobrium and scorn, and even to cruel oppression—but it has maintained its hold on their hearts and affections—it has been strengthened by every insult, it has been purified by every struggle, and were you to take from it its sacraments, they would say, as Shylock said in a less noble cause—
"You do take my house
When you do take the prop that doth sustain my house."
If you steel their hearts by unjust legislation, you render them insensible to the

31
claims of duty and justice; and what wonder if the devil of discontent is let loose, and that they break out from time to time in those wild shrieks of vengeance which are a slur and blot upon the national character? Let it be the business of Parliament to apply its wisdom to the consideration of this great subject. Begin by giving them an unfettered Church; and by thus showing justice you will teach them, in their turn, to act justly. Your recompense may not be immediate; it may not be rendered to you by human hands; but, in acting thus, you will not only be making Ireland a bond of union and strength to the Empire, instead of a source of weakness, but you will be doing that which is due to your own conscience, and to the better service of Him to whom all worship is due. The noble Earl concluded by moving an humble Address to Her Majesty in Answer to Her Majesty's most gracious Speech, as follows:—
MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
"WE, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the gracious Speech which Your Majesty has commanded to be made to both Houses of Parliament.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty's relations with all Foreign Powers continue to be most friendly; and we humbly express our satisfaction that those Powers cordially share Your Majesty's desire for the maintenance of peace. We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us of Your Majesty's endeavours, in concurrence with Your Majesty's Allies, to effect a settlement of the differences which have arisen between Turkey and Greece; and we humbly express the gratification with which we learn that these joint efforts have aided in preventing any serious interruption of tranquillity in the Levant.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty has entered into negotiations with the United States of North America for the settlement of questions which affect the interests and international relations of the two countries; and we humbly assure Your Majesty that we share in Your Majesty's earnest hope that the result of these negotiations may be to place on a firm and durable basis the friendship which should ever exist between England and America.
"WE humbly assure Your Majesty that we have learnt with grief that disturbances have occurred
32
in New Zealand, and that at one spot they have been attended with circumstances of atrocity; and also that we participate in Your Majesty's confidence that the Colonial Government and people will rot be wanting either in energy to repress the outbreaks, or in the prudence and moderation which we trust will prevent their recurrence.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that the condition of Ireland leads Your Majesty to believe that we may be spared the painful necessity which was felt by the late Parliament for narrowing the securities of personal liberty in that country by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.
"WE humbly express to Your Majesty the readiness with which we shall inquire into the present mode of conducting Parliamentary and Municipal Elections, and consider whether it may be possible to provide any further guarantees for their tranquillity, purity, and freedom.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that measures will be laid before us for the relief of some classes of occupiers from hardships in respect of Rating, which seem capable of remedy; for the extension and improvement of Education in Scotland; and for rendering the considerable revenues of the Endowed Schools of England more widely effectual for the purposes of instruction; and also for introducing the principle of representation to the control of the County Rate, by the establishment of Financial Boards for Counties.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that we shall be invited to recur to the subject of Bankruptcy, with a view to the more effective distribution of Assets and to the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.
"WE humbly assure Your Majesty that our serious attention shall be given to the Ecclesiastical arrangements of Ireland, and to the legislalation which will be necessary in order to their final adjustment; and further that in the prosecution of this work we shall bear a careful regard to every legitimate interest which it may involve, and that we shall be governed by the constant aim to promote the welfare of religion through the principles of equal justice, to secure the action of the undivided feeling and opinion of Ireland on the side of loyalty and law, to efface the memory of former contentions, and to cherish the sympathies of an affectionate people.
"WE humbly assure Your Majesty that with Your Majesty we fervently pray that the Almighty may in this, as in every matter of public interest, never cease to guide our deliberations, and bring them to a happy issue."
LORD MONCK, in seconding the Address, said:—My Lords, no word I hope will fall from me which will interfere in any way with that unanimity with which it is desirable that we should approach the Throne on the first night of the Session. We have, I think, arrived at a point in our national progress at which, like the traveller who has climbed some lofty eminence, we may pause and take a retrospect of the course over which we have journeyed. We have just passed through a great crisis. We have admitted to the exercise of the electoral franchise large bodies of our fellow-countrymen who have hitherto been do-barred from all direct influence over the Government of the country; and I think I do not exaggerate in saying that by a simple act of our ordinary legislation we have effected as great a transfer of political power as in other countries has been brought about by the fall of dynasties, the overthrow of institutions, and the effusion of blood. Nor have we only admitted these new elements into our Constitution. The late General Election has enabled us to form a very fair estimate of the effect which their introduction may be expected to have on our institutions. Now, remembering the gloomy prophecies indulged in by those who opposed the Reform Act of 1867, and the not very cheerful anticipations of those who promoted it, I regard the present aspect of affairs as by no moans unsatisfactory; for the perfect calm which pervades the public mind, and the entire absence of popular demands for revolutionary or organic changes, ought to be reassuring to all, and convince us that if—to borrow the metaphor of. the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby)—we have taken "a leap in the dark," we have been fortunate enough, at all events, to alight on our feet. Nor need this result have been unexpected. It is impossible to review the political action of the last thirty years without being struck by the large share taken by those not then admitted to the electoral franchise in bringing about many legislative measures which are now generally admitted to have been wise and beneficial; and I think the discussion and agitation in which that portion of the community took part during that period not merely educated them in political knowledge, but prepared them for the exercise of political
34
rights when they came to be conferred upon them.
My Lords, the first paragraph of the Speech from the Throne congratulates Parliament on the state of things I have endeavoured to describe, and the first paragraph in the Address—to which I think there will be no difficulty in agreeing—thanks Her Majesty for those congratulations.
But before touching on the positive announcements contained in other paragraphs respecting those principal topics on which the Government propose legislation during the ensuing Session, I will first refer to our foreign relations; and your Lordships must be glad to learn that Her Majesty continues to receive friendly assurances from foreign Powers; and that information has a peculiar significance at the present moment, because the representatives of all the great European Powers have lately met in Conference at Paris, and it may be presumed that confidential communications were then interchanged which enable Her Majesty to speak with greater assurance respecting the intentions of foreign States than if she were dependent only on the ordinary sources of diplomatic intelligence. I cannot refrain from adding that I regard this Conference as a new and satisfactory feature in diplomacy. It is the fashion, I know to sneer at arbitration as a mode of settling international disputes, and it has been urged that if one of the parties to such an arbitration should refuse to be bound by the award there were no means of compelling him, except by a resort to war, to avoid which was the very object of the arbitration. But those who so reason, and who would on this ground discard arbitration, show, I think, a forgetfulness of the great and increasing influence exercised by public opinion as distinguished from positive law on the ordinary concerns of life. How easy it is for a reckless or unprincipled man, if he can discard all sense of shame, to outrage society without bringing himself within the reach of any positive enactment, and yet how seldom such cases occur ! Now the facilities which now exist for the collection and dissemination of intelligence throughout the Continent tend to build up an international European public opinion, the full force and influence of which can hardly be conceived, while the territorial changes in

35
central Europe, all leading to the equalization of the forces of the great military monarchies, make it every day of greater consequence far any Power which would seek to break the peace to obtain the support of that public opinion. I cannot believe that a power so influential over each individual in private society may not to some extent influence the intercourse of nations, and I trust that the precedent set on this occasion may be improved and enlarged; so that, if it be impossible to realize the poet's dream of
"The Parliament of man, the Federation of the world,"
some mode may at least be devised of settling international misunderstandings more in consonance with the spirit of the age than the vulgar and clumsy method of an appeal to brute force.
Your Lordships, I am sure, heartily join in the hope expressed by the Address, that the negotiations for the settlement of the questions pending between England and the great American Republic may be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and that every obstacle which may prevent the two nations from being one in sentiment and affection, as they are already one in origin and interest, may be removed.
My Lords, turning to New Zealand, I have always observed that when our colonial possessions obtain the compliment of mention in the Royal Speech it is on account of their being in some trouble; their relations with the mother country make it natural that this should be the case. We have conceded to them—most wisely, as I believe—the right of self-government; and as long as the political machine works smoothly we hear, of course, little or nothing about them; but as soon as trouble supervenes it immediately reaches our ears. I regret that the allusion to New Zealand on this occasion is no exception to the rule, for a serious encounter has, as is well known, taken place between the European and Native populations. I sincerely join in the hope expressed in the Royal Speech that the colonists will exhibit both energy and firmness in the suppression of these risings, and forbearance and moderation in their future dealings with the Natives. I am glad to observe that no intention is announced of sending British troops to assist in the suppression of the risings, for in a co-
36
lony where, as in New Zealand, the European outnumbers the Native population, I believe in the proportion of about five to one, it would appear to me to be nothing short of a slander on British manhood to suppose that they are not able unassisted to defend themselves against outbreaks of this kind. There is another and a stronger reason why we should not despatch British troops to their assistance. We are counselling the colonists to exhibit energy in preparation for attack, and forbearance in their dealings with the Natives; but as long as we leave British troops in such a colony, precisely to the extent that we leave them shall we diminish, in the minds of the colonists, the inducement to accept both branches of our advice. On the one hand, the sense of security afforded by the presence of a military force deprives the colonists of the motive for taxing themselves for the purpose of preparation; while, on the other hand, the sense of strength which the presence of the troops gives, takes from them a strong motive for the exercise of moderation and forbearance in their dealings with the Natives. I trust, therefore, that my noble Friend (Earl Granville) and his Colleagues will not allow themselves to be persuaded by any argument drawn from this outbreak, either to send out troops or to suspend the arrangements which I believe have been made for the entire withdrawal of the Imperial troops from New Zealand.
My Lords, before noticing the subjects on which the Government propose legislation this Session, I wish to refer to a negative announcement which all must have heard with gratification—the announcement that Her Majesty's Government do not anticipate the necessity of renewing the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. I am not one of those who would refuse to any Government any extraordinary powers for which they might ask for the purpose of enabling them to perform that which is the first duty of all Governments—the maintenance of law and order; nor, considering the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, would I press on any Government the premature abandonment of such powers. Upon the Members of the Administration must rest the responsibility of retaining or abandoning them, for they alone possess

37
the information which can guide them to a right conclusion; but if, on full consideration, they are of opinion that those powers may now be relinquished, it will certainly give your Lordships sincere pleasure to see Ireland restored to her normal constitutional position.
Passing to another topic, I will remind your Lordships that, notwithstanding the generally satisfactory nature of the recent elections, it is notorious, both from personal observation and from the revelations before the tribunals newly instituted for the trial of Election Petitions, that in certain localities a considerable amount of undue influence, both personal and pecuniary, has been exercised, and it being important, if a legislative remedy is to be applied to the evil, that the facts should be accurately ascertained, no time, I conceive, can be more suitable for conducting such an inquiry than the assembling of a new Parliament, when all the circumstances of the late election are fresh in the recollection of the public.
I now come, my Lords, to the last two paragraphs of the Address, those relating to the Irish Church. I think that, considering what took place during the last Session of the last Parliament; considering the verdict returned by the constituencies to whom the question was directly put; the course taken by the late Government in consequence of that verdict; and, looking to the circumstances under which the present Administration acceded to Office, your Lordships would have been greatly surprised if this important subject had not occupied a prominent place in the Royal Speech. Assuming, then, that an allusion to the subject should have been made, it has been conceived, as it appears to me, in a spirit of moderation and forbearance, and is so framed that any noble Lord may concur in the Address without in any way compromising himself with regard to the principles of the question. What will be the nature or details of the measure which will be proposed by the Government I need hardly say I have no authority to state; but as an Irishman and a Churchman, interested on the one hand in the effect which the measure will produce on the minds of my fellow-countrymen—deeply interested on the other hand in its bearing on my Church—I deem it my duty to lay down three principles which I conceive to be
38
indispensable if the measure is to be a final and effectual one. The first is that the disconnection of the Church from the State should be complete and immediate; the second is that the scheme of disendowment must be so framed as to leave no ground of distinction between persons professing different religious creeds; and the third is that the Anglican Church, disconnected from the State, must be left entirely free to adopt her own organization and form of government. My chief fear, I confess, is that the opponents of the measure, though unable to defeat it in its main objects, may be sufficiently powerful to retain some paltry shred or shadow of establishment or endowment which will be of no substantial advantage to the Church, will diminish the beneficial effect of the measure on the minds of the population, and will perpetuate that spirit of hostility towards the Church which, I am sorry to say, now animates a large portion of the Irish people. I have for many years been of opinion that the change now proposed is demanded by justice and dictated by sound policy. Even if it were otherwise—oven if it should seem injurious to the Church—it would make no alteration in my views—I would wish justice to be done, at whatever cost; but I am firmly convinced that the true interests of the Irish Church concur with the demands of justice and policy. Nothing, I believe, has had so potent an effect in preventing the extension of the Anglican Church in Ireland as its connection with the State. By the position of ascendancy in which we have placed her, we have enlisted against her every generous impulse which animates the human breast, and have rendered it difficult, if not impossible, for a man of such impulses to leave the communion of the Church of Rome for that of the Church of England. To take such a step we require him to leave the side of the weak and range himself on the side of the strong—to leave what appears to the Irish people the side of the oppressed, and to take the side of the oppressor. I do not, however, desire to fight under false colours, and I admit that, independently of the special circumstances of the Irish Church, I am on principle and as a Churchman opposed to all connection between Church and State. I believe that wherever that connection exists the same blighting and

39
benumbing influence will be found to affect the Church, like—to draw an illustration from commerce—the effect exercised by Protection upon those branches of trade to which it was applied. Holding these views, I need not tell your Lordships that I do not share in the gloomy forebodings of those who think that the measure will be a deathblow to the Irish Church—that she cannot survive her severance from the secular power—the experience I have had in Canada of the beneficial effect on the Church of throwing her upon her own resources precludes me from entertaining such apprehensions. I cannot bring myself to think so meanly of my fellow-religionists as to suppose they will not be prepared to make the sacrifices necessary for the maintenance of their Church; and, I say it with all reverence, I have too firm a faith in the vitality of my own religion, and in the source whence its vitality is derived, to doubt for a moment that the necessary funds will be forthcoming. I may be mistaken, but I look forward to a noble future for the Irish Church when, invigorated by the sense of self-reliance and the consciousness of self-sustenance, released from the unhappy and false position with regard to the great mass of the population in which establishment has placed her, and relieved from the opprobium of injustice, she shall be enabled to lay her pure doctrine, her pious practice, and her noble ritual before the dispassionate observation of an unprejudiced people. My Lords, I beg to second the Address which has been just moved by the noble Earl.
THE LORD CHANCELLORhaving read the Address, [See Page 32.]
LORD CAIRNS: My Lords, it is satisfactory that, while dealing with subjects upon many of which considerable difference of opinion must be entertained, the language in which your Lordships are asked to address the Crown is framed in a manner which is unlikely to provoke dissent, much less division. My Lords, some of the communications in the most gracious Speech of the Sovereign your Lordships cannot fail to receive with feelings of pleasure. My Lords, it is a matter of congratulation that the outbreak between Turkey and Greece, which a short time ago appeared to be so imminent, is now unlikely to occur. It is a matter for congratulation
40
that the firmness and the moderation displayed by Turkey have been rewarded by the acceptance on the part of Greece of the main points of the ultimatum originally proposed by Turkey, when its conditions were offered, to Greece through the Conference which has lately sat at Paris. Notwithstanding, however, what has fallen from the noble Lord who seconded the Address, I venture to say that it may perhaps be doubted what was the specific object which was proposed by that Conference, and I think it may also be doubted whether, if Her Majesty's Government and the other great Powers felt themselves prepared to recommend to Greece the acceptance of those propositions, that end might not have been obtained with equal effect without the somewhat hazardous expedient of calling a Conference together. However this may be, it would be premature at the present moment to express any definite opinion upon the subject, because, although we do not find that there is any promise in Her Majesty's most gracious Speech that the Papers relating to this subject will be laid before us, I have no doubt that Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to lay upon the table as soon as possible the Papers relating to the proceedings of the Conference. Your Lordships, I have no doubt, have also heard with satisfaction that there is a prospect that the negotiations entered into for the purpose of terminating the matters which have been in difference between this country and the United States are likely to be brought to a satisfactory conclusion. We are not informed what is the precise state at this moment of those negotiations, or of the form which the settlement is likely to assume; and therefore I can only express a hope—in which I am sure your Lordships will heartily join—that when that settlement is completed—if it be completed—and when it is laid before Parliament, we shall find in it materials which may lead us to entertain a sanguine hope that the good feeling and friendship between this country and the United States will in future be increased and perpetuated. My Lords, I gather from the most gracious Speech of Her Majesty that it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose to your Lordships any measure for the continuance of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. My Lords, I agree with what

41
was said just now by the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Carysfort), that Parliament must always feel pain when asked to suspend in any part of the kingdom the Habeas Corpus Act, and so take away one of the great safeguards of the liberties of the subject. At the same time, it appears to me that the course which has always been taken by Parliament upon this subject is a wise one—namely, to trust very much in a matter of this kind to the responsibility of the Executive Government of the country. It is to the Executive Government of the country that we must trust in a great measure for advice when we are asked to suspend, when we are asked to continue, or when we are asked to take off the suspension of the Habeas Corpus. I have no doubt that if Her Majesty's Government have come to the determination that it is no longer necessary to ask Parliament to renew the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, we shall be informed at the proper time by Her Majesty's Government of the improved state of the country which has led them to adopt that resolution. My Lords, there is still another subject in the most gracious Speech upon which no difference of opinion can be entertained. We are told—or rather the House of Commons is told—that the Estimates for the coming year have been framed with a careful regard to the efficiency of the services. Now, if the Estimates have been framed, as has been intimated, with a careful regard to the efficiency of the services, I venture to say there is no person in either House of Parliament who will not concur in expressing satisfaction at any diminution in the charges upon the country which may be effected. The only question which it appears to me can arise at the proper time will be, not whether the true criterion has been adopted—because upon that point there can be no doubt that the true criterion is a proper regard to the efficiency of the services—but whether that criterion has been properly applied in any reductions that have been proposed. I come now to a passage in the Speech which I own has occasioned me some doubt with regard to its meaning. We are told that Her Majesty has been advised to address Parliament by recommending Parliament
"To inquire into the present modes of conducting Parliamentary and Municipal Elections, and
42
to consider whether it may be possible to provide any further guarantees for their tranquillity, purity, and freedom."
I do not understand this paragraph as intimating—nor do I think that any such interpretation has been put upon it by either of the noble Lords the Mover and Seconder of the Address—that any measure is about to be proposed on this subject on the part of Her Majesty's Government. Upon the idea intended to be conveyed by this paragraph I apprehend there can be no dispute. Every person must wish that the elections of this country, whether Parliamentary or municipal, should be provided with every guarantee for their tranquillity, purity, and freedom. What I understand this passage to point to is not legislation to be proposed by the Government, but inquiry. We are quite accustomed to being informed in the Speech from the Throne that the Sovereign has been advised to issue a Royal Commission on any subject requiring investigation; but I do not understand this passage as pointing to a Royal Commission; because I apprehend that if that had been the case we should have been informed that such a Commission had been issued, and should not have been told that Parliament should institute an inquiry into the subject. I therefore regard the passage as pointing to a Committee of Parliament—that is to say, a Committee of one or both Houses of Parliament. I only venture to observe upon this in passing for the purpose of expressing some doubt as to—I will not say the analogy, but the precedent upon which the Speech has been in this respect founded. As far as I am aware, there has been no instance in which the Crown has been made to suggest to Parliament the appointment of a Committee of one or the other of the Houses of Parliament for the purpose of making any inquiry. The course is for the Government to advise the Crown. It is armed with power to institute any inquiry which it thinks desirable; the Government is also in the habit of proposing to Parliament any legislation it may think desirable. But I am not aware of any precedent for the Government advising the Crown to recommend Parliament to institute an inquiry through the instrumentality of a Parliamentary Committee. My Lords, in the contents of the most gracious Speech, with regard to domestic legislation, with

43
one very important exception to which I shall in a moment refer, there is not much that calls for remark from me. We are informed, in the first place, that
"A measure will be brought forward for the relief of some classes of occupiers from hardships in respect of Rating, which appear to be capable of remedy."
We shall hear, no doubt, in due time, what these hardships are supposed to be, and what is the remedy which it is intended to apply to them. We are then informed that there is to be
"A measure for applying the principle of representation to the control of the County Rate;" and "A measure for the extension and improvement of Education in Scotland, and for rendering the considerable revenues of the Endowed Schools of England more widely effectual for the purposes of instruction."
But I see no intimation in the Speech—and I own the omission has occasioned me some surprise—that any measure is to be introduced with regard to primary education in England. We are told, finally, that we are to have again an old familiar friend—a measure with regard to Bankruptcy, which has become an annual acquaintance of your Lordships during many Sessions of Parliament. Passing from these measures, I come now to what has been reserved in the Speech till the last, and which no doubt is the most important part of the gracious Speech. It is called by the very sonorous and I think novel term of a "final adjustment of the ecclesiastical arrangements" of Ireland. I do not dwell on that descriptive term, neither do I dwell—although it is somewhat tempting—on the strange accumulation of phrases, and what appears to be the almost fortuitous collocation of adjectives and substantives which is to be found in the penultimate sentence of the most gracious Speech. I quite agree with the noble Lord who seconded the Address, that, having regard to the circumstances under which the present Administration accepted Office, which are fresh in your Lordships' recollection, there was not any course open to them but that which they have taken—namely, to introduce into the most gracious Speech a mention of legislation with regard to the Church in Ireland, and a statement that they were prepared to lay before Parliament their policy with regard to that question.
44
I think we need not be surprised that that which was the natural course has been adopted by Her Majesty's Government, and I think your Lordships will agree with me that nothing could be more inconvenient than that, before we have the measure laid on the table of the House, before we have any intimation from the Government itself as to what the character of the measure will be, I should be tempted to follow the noble Lord who seconded the Address, and enter upon a discussion of what the measure may turn out to be which Her Majesty's Government will ultimately propose to Parliament. I should be still further unwilling to attribute to Her Majesty's Government some, at least, of the views of the noble Lord who proposed and of the noble Lord who seconded the Address, until we have reason to know that these are the views which they actually entertain. Indeed, if I am not mistaken, the noble Lord who seconded the Address went so far as to say—whether speaking from inspiration by the Government or not, of course, I cannot tell—that in his opinion the connection in any phase and in any country of Church and State was an undesirable thing for the Church, that it had a benumbing effect, and that the question was not in any way an Irish question, but one applicable to all places. [Viscount MONCK intimated assent.] I thought I understood what was said by the noble Lord, and I am glad to find that I have rightly represented him. I may express my great satisfaction at some things which are contained in the Speech, and I am glad to concur with the noble Lord who seconded the Motion, that the language in which the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne is framed is such that it cannot be taken as an expression of opinion at either side of the House as to what the measure on the subject of the ecclesiastical settlement in Ireland ought to be. I am also glad to find that the measure which the Government are prepared to propose is to be submitted to Parliament at a very early period; for I can conceive nothing more desirable than that upon a subject of this transcendental importance the most ample time should be given to both Houses of Parliament for careful, dispassionate, and close examination of any course of policy which may be proposed,

45
and of the reasons on winch that courses of policy may be founded. I am also glad to find, if I read the Speech correctly, that the policy of the Government is to be submitted to your Lordships' consideration in a complete and final form, and is not to be submitted, as I have seen some suggestions that it might be, by instalments, or in a fragmentary manner. We shall hear, no doubt, from the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Earl Granville), at a convenient time, what will be the business to which the Government will ask your Lordships to address your attention in the first instance. And I will venture, if the noble Earl will allow me, to suggest to him the great importance both to your Lordships' convenience, and to the efficient discharge of your Lordships' business, that this House should not be, if possible, reduced to a state of compulsory inactivity up to the month of July or August, and afterwards have thrown upon it in the short remainder of the Session such an amount of business as it is utterly impossible to transact. The noble Earl cannot suppose I am making any complaint of a Government which has not yet had an opportunity of deciding what course they will take on any subject. I am only taking the liberty of offering the suggestion to him for what he may think it worth, that although there are some measures which can only be fitly proposed in the other House, there are measures which can be dealt with quite as fitly in this House as in the House of Commons. I would remind your Lordships what happened with, regard to what I have called an old familiar friend—the Bankruptcy Bill. A Bill of great magnitude was proposed last year which, after all, was only the fruit and consequence of former Bills on the same subject, with the improvements which time had shown to be required. That Bill, after being fully considered by the public in all its main provisions, and being approved of by the whole mercantile community, received the approbation of your Lordships' House; but we were obliged to abandon its prosecution owing to the pressure of business before Parliament. A very small fragment of that Bill was brought forward as a separate measure in "another place," and ultimately became law; and I am glad to find from statements which have been made that even that fragment of a
46
larger measure has already been productive of most beneficial effects. If it should be the determination of Her Majesty's Government to introduce into this House either their measure of bankruptcy reform, or any other of the measures which they have to offer to Parliament, on behalf of those who sit upon this side of the House I think I may venture to offer to the noble Earl—while reserving to ourselves the right of most candid criticism with regard to those measures—a frank and willing co-operation in promoting and expediting the public business.
EARL GRANVILLE: I am sure your Lordships cannot fail to be aware that the position of a Member of the Government who rises to speak on this occasion is one of difficulty. The remarkable speeches which were made by the two noble Lords, the Mover and Seconder of the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne, exhausted the most important topics of that Speech, and I am bound to say that the speech which, has just been made by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Cairns) leaves hardly any subject on which it is necessary for me to touch. But before making the very few observations which I shall feel called upon to offer in answer to what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord, your Lordships will excuse me for saying that which may appear somewhat egotistical. After having been for some years in this House in a certain degree the organ of the Government, I find myself again in the same position. I felt during the former time that the only means by which I was able to discharge the functions of that office were by the cordial and consistent support of my Friends, and, I must also add, by the forbearance of some of those who sit on the opposite side of this House. With regard to my Friends, I feel that their support is more necessary to me than ever. I succeed a man who has created for himself a great name in history, and I also feel the disadvantage of having exactly opposite to me one known for the highest possible skill derivable from professional training. I have no right to claim for the future any forbearance from those who are opposed to me; but I have derived some hope from the speech just delivered that the daily judicial habit enables the noble and learned Lord opposite to do—what he

47
has certainly done this evening—to temper the keenness of the political party advocate of the evening. With regard to the observations of the noble and learned Lord, the greater part of them, both in substance and in tone, was in approval of Her Majesty's Speech. The noble and learned Lord expressed the satisfaction which I am sure is felt by all at the friendly relations which Her Majesty's Government entertains with all the foreign Powers. I could not express in more fitting terms the wish that is felt in this country that the negotiations with the United States may tend to strengthen those relations of friendship and amity which ought to exist between the two nations. The noble and learned Lord, alluding to the controversy which has happily terminated in settling the disputes between Turkey and Greece, paid just compliments to the conduct of Turkey in this matter. He also expressed a wish and a just expectation that Papers on this subject would be laid before your Lordships as early as possible. I think I am not wrong in stating that up to this date the Papers are prepared for presentation; but there are reasons which your Lordships will easily understand why, during the last week which is to terminate this affair, it is better not to do anything calculated to re-open discussion. I believe that when these Papers are produced, your Lordships will see that Her Majesty's Government partook of the impression to which the noble and learned Lord gave utterance, and were of opinion that the three Powers might have settled the matter without difficulty, and that when yielding to the wishes of their allies to refer the matter to a general Conference, it was owing to the exertions of my noble Friend in settling with the other Powers of Europe to the precise bases upon which the Conference should meet that the happy result is in some measure to be attributed. The noble and learned Lord expressed his satisfaction with the single paragraph addressed to the Gentlemen of the House of Commons with regard to expenditure—accompanying his remarks, however, with the proviso, in which we all must concur, that economy should be combined with efficiency. We have given a pledge to the country that we mean to carry out greater economy with greater efficiency, and we mean to redeem that pledge, but with moderation and prudence; and when the Estimates come to
48
be explained in the other House of Parliament, they will be found not entirely wanting in that combination of efficiency with economy which we all desire. The noble and learned Lord has interpreted quite correctly the intentions of the Government With regard to those evils connected with the elections which, by public notoriety and by judicial reports, are proved to have existed at the last election. His first criticism was, I thought, rather a small one—that there was no precedent for a recommendation from Her Majesty's Government to the Houses of Parliament to inquire into such a matter; but he rightly gathers that it is our intention to propose such a Committee as he has sketched forth; and the recommendation of Her Majesty's Government of an inquiry appears to me, with or without precedent, to be perfectly unobjectionable. The noble and learned Lord regretted, and I deeply regret, and I think the country will deeply regret, that primary education is not one of the subjects which Her Majesty's Government feel themselves enabled to announce to Parliament this Session. If a Bill on that subject were introduced of a very simple character, like that the late Government brought in last year, it might be possible; but if it were wished that the Government should deal with this large and important question as it deserves, I believe that every one would feel it to be a mockery of Parliament to introduce such a measure as would be consistent with the importance of the subject concurrently with that other great measure which must be submitted to the other House of Parliament. Education is a most important subject with regard to Scotland; and, perhaps, with regard to this country, it may be said that middle-class education has been neglected more than the higher or than primary education. The subject of primary education is one that is dear to the country, and Her Majesty's Government are consequently most anxious to deal with the subject as soon as it can be legislated upon with efficiency and success; but the country will feel that, under the peculiar circumstances of the present Session, Her Majesty's Government are justified in not introducing such a Bill this year. The noble and learned Lord adverted to what he called "our old familiar friend," the Bankruptcy Bill, upon which I may remind him both he and the noble and learned

49
Lord by his side (Lord Chelmsford) have tried their hands. I trust that the hope expressed by the noble and learned Lord on this subject will be fulfilled, and that my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, taking advantage of what has already been attempted, will succeed in producing a measure on the subject that will commend itself to the attention of your Lordships and ultimately prove successful. Bather to my surprise, the noble and learned Lord seemed to be ignorant that any occupier had suffered any hardship in respect of the amended law on rating. I should have thought that no one, either learned or unlearned, could be ignorant of the complaints made all over the country of the hardships inflicted upon the poorer class of occupiers by certain portions of the late Reform Bill. No one will say that it is not a hardship upon the poor man to be called upon to pay Ids rates for the whole year, and then to be turned out, perhaps next morning, by a profligate landlord, who may let the house to others at a higher rent in consequence of the rates being thus paid for the whole year. This seems to me an obvious hardship which all should be anxious to remove. While I will not attempt to anticipate the provisions of the Bill which will be introduced on this subject, it will be satisfactory, I trust, to the noble and learned Lord to know that we propose to interfere as little as possible with the enactments of the Reform Bill of last year. I now come to that which the noble and learned Lord has truly described as the most important paragraph of the Queen's Speech. My noble Friends the Mover and Seconder of the Address, who are both connected with Ireland, referred with great force of conviction and eloquence to that subject. Remembering for how many hours the noble and learned Lord and myself trespassed upon your Lordships' patience on the abstract merits of the question during last Session, I think your Lordships will do well to take his advice, in waiting until the measure to be proposed is made known to the Houses of Parliament. He alluded to the early date at which it was proposed to bring this subject forward, and I may state that Notice has just been given in the other House of the introduction of a measure on the 1st of March. The noble and learned Lord also alluded to the circumstances under
50
which the present Government came into power. I own I rather expected that he would have taken the opportunity of first explaining the circumstances under which the late Government retired from Office. I do not, however, complain of the omission, and will only express my conviction that the course pursued by the late Government, while it was extremely wise in a party view, was also useful for the national interests; because, although it gave the present Government little time to prepare their measures, yet it would have been otherwise impossible to have brought forward a Bill on the subject during the present Session if the delay of waiting for the meeting of Parliament had occurred. The noble and learned Lord referred to a subject of complaint which I have myself made when sitting on that side of the House, and which I have had to answer on this side of the House—that complaint so fairly made on the part of those in Opposition, and so feebly defended by those in power—that there should be so very little work in this House in the early part of the Session and such a great pressure of work in the latest month or two of the Session. It is a complaint which Lord Aberdeen fifteen years ago stated he remembered having heard for fifty years. It is obvious that there is some reason for this state of things, and that it arises from the fact that the peculiar province of your Lordships' House is not so much the initiative as the revision of measures. I can only say that I will endeavour to supply your Lordships with as much of the material of legislation as I can as early as possible. I have only to say, before I sit down, that I congratulate ourselves and the House upon that feeling of moderation which exists, and which has enabled me to make my first Ministerial speech a matter of very small importance.
Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
The LORD REDESDAIE appointed, Nemine Dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES—Appointed.
SUB-COMMITTEE FOR THE JOURNALS—Appointed.
APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.
RECEIVERS AND TRYERS OF PETITIONS—Appointed.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for better enforcing the laws ecclesiastical respecting the discipline of the clergy, amending the constitution and regulating the mode of procedure of the Ecclesiastical Courts, and regulating the government of the Ecclesiastical Registries in England—Was presented by The Earl of SHAFTESBURY; read 1a (No. 2.)
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, a Quarter before Five o'clock.