Lords Sitting of 3 August 1869

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Cursitor (County Palatine of Durham) * (263); Expiring Laws Continuance* (262).
Second Reading — Telegraphs (243); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act (1863) Amendment * (256); Public Works (Ireland) * (255); Clerks of Assize* (248); Zanzibar (Jurisdiction of Consul)* (246); Fortifications (Provision for Expenses) (251); Basses Lights, Ceylon, * (254); Criminal Lunatics * (247); Local Officers Superannuation (Ireland)* (249); Militia Pay*; Militia (Ireland)* (252); Nitro Glycerine* (245); Railways Abandonment (249); Volunteer Act (1863) Amendment* (257); Metropolitan Building Act (1855) Amendment * (232).
Committee—Report—Courts of Justice Salaries and Funds* (215); Land Tax Commissioners Names* (158); Dublin Freemen Commission (210).
Report—Fisheries (Ireland)* (236); Turnpike Acts Continuance, Ac* (230).
Third Reading— Civil Offices (Pensions)* (157); Evidence Amendment * (260); Contagious Diseases (Animals) (261); Jamaica Loans* (204); Insolvent Debtors and Bankruptcy Repeal* (241); Millbank Prison * (234); Trades Unions (Protection of Funds)* (226); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (No. 2)* (136); Straits Settlements * (231), and passed.
Withdrawn—Joint Stock Companies Arrangements* (167).

TELEGRAPHS BILL—(No. 243.)
(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Heading, read.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, their Lordships would remember that an Act was passed last year enabling the Postmaster General to purchase the interests and property of the various telegraph companies of the United Kingdom, with a view to secure cheaper and extended telegraphic communication. Negotiations were entered into with those companies, and their machinery and accounts were carefully examined, the result being an agreement that twenty years' purchase should be paid. The companies, in the first instance, claimed in the aggregate the sum of £7,000,000 as the value of their property, but this was ultimately
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reduced to £5,220,000. The railway companies possessing lines had also to be arranged with; and this, and further expenses that had been incurred owing to the Government having taken upon itself the management of the telegraphs, and making them of the utmost utility to the public, raised the sum to £6,730,000, or, in round numbers, £7,000,000. If this sum were raised by loan at 3½ per cent, the annual interest would be £236,000. Now, according to the most careful calculations, the revenue likely to be derived was £673,828. In addition, however, to the interest, there would be various outgoings for salaries, the maintenance of the lines and instruments, way-leaves, and incidental expenses, the probable amount of which was £359,000. This would leave a surplus or profit of £77,000, which, if the capital were obtained at 3¼ per cent, would be raised to £94,000. They might reasonably expect, moreover, that this bargain, which he regarded as a good one at present, would become still better hereafter. It must be remembered that the business of the companies had for many years been steadily increasing, and it might be expected that the increased facilities and superior management of the new system would bring about a still further increase. Among those facilities might be mentioned the wires into every post-office where there was a money order office, the receipt of telegrams in all receiving houses and boxes, the payment by postage stamps, that they might be deposited for transmission in letter-boxes, and a uniform rate of 1s. This last, he thought, would more than counterbalance the abolition of 6d. messages in a few of the large towns, for the number of these bore a small proportion to the total number of messages. It was hoped, moreover, that before long the uniform rate might be reduced to 6d.; but it was thought best not to attempt too much in the first instance. Exception had been taken to the monopoly clause in some quarters; but it must be borne in mind that the price to be paid to the companies was a monopoly price; hence it was only fair that the Government should be protected against the contingency of being undersold and exposed to ruinous loss, while there was no fear that the Government would not be ready, at all times to adopt

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manifest improvements, and give the utmost accommodation to the public.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL—(No. 261.)
(The Lord President.)

THIRD READING. AMENDMENTS.
Bill read 3a with the Amendments.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved an Amendment enabling railway companies to charge on owners of cattle the expense of disinfecting the trucks. The noble Chairman of Committees invariably opposed any attempt on the part of companies to raise the rates they had originally laid down, on the ground that they formed a contract with the public. Now, admitting this for argument's sake to be correct, justice required that no burdens should be imposed on the companies beyond those originally contemplated, and at the time when the tariffs were fixed it was plainly impossible to foresee the necessity of disinfection as a precaution against the cattle plague. He might be told that the expense would be small; but last year two new expenses —those of smoking carriages and of communication between passengers and guard—were cast on the companies, and many small items like this formed a heavy burden on the poorer companies, such as would account for the difficulties under which they laboured.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONopposed the Amendment, on the ground that the cleansing and disinfection of trucks had been obligatory on railway companies under various Acts of Parliament ever since the Cattle Plague Orders of 1867. An attempt, moreover, on the part of the company with which the noble Marquess was connected to impose a charge on its customers had been pronounced illegal, Mr. Justice Keating holding that it was not a service rendered to the plaintiff individually as distinguished from the rest of the public, and Justices Montague Smith and Brett concurred with him. On the ground stated by the learned Judge the existing law ought to be maintained.
Amendment negatived.
Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

REPORT.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
Amendment proposed,
In page 5, line 12, after ("engine") insert ("Provided always, that where the Court of Queen's Bench shall on appeal from the decision of the said commissioners or inspectors have decided that any such fixed engine is legal, the said inspectors shall give a certificate to that effect to the person entitled thereto.")—(The Lord Dufferin.)
Amendment agreed to.
Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

DUBLIN FREEMEN COMMISSION BILL.
(The Lord Lurgan.)
(NO. 210.) COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Lord Lurgan.)
THE EARL OF LONGFORDurged that, considering the [slender and accidental majority of I last night in favour of proceeding with the measure, it was scarcely reasonable that the Government should persevere with it. They had no doubt introduced it in the belief that it was for the public interest; but, instead of being a statesmanlike endeavour to remedy an abuse, it was really a party proceeding, and the persecution of a political interest. He moved that the Bill be committed this day three months.
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and insert ("this day three months.")—(The Earl of Longford.)
EARL GEANVILLEhoped the opposition would not be pressed, the question having been decided last night on two separate divisions, and no notice having been given of the Amendment. He denied that any party question was involved in the Bill.
LORD CAIRNSsaid, he thought the merits of the Bill were fairly challenged last night. The majority was not a very large one; but at this period of the Session it would hardly be right to divide again on the same question, and he j hoped his noble Friend would not persevere with his Amendment, particularly as no notice had been given of it.
On Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion? Resolved in the Affirmative. House in Committee ac-

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cordingly; Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES) BILL—(No 251.)
(The Lord Northbrook.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Heading, read.
LORD NORTHBROOK LORD NORTHBROOK, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, stated that the original estimate of the works was over £10,000,000; that a subsequent estimate was £7,470,000; that a loan of £6,000,000 had been authorized, the greater portion of which had been expended; and that the Bill authorized a further loan of £1,500,000, which it was believed would bring the works to completion. The estimate of 1867 would not be exceeded—indeed, the present estimate showed a reduction of a few thousand pounds. Last year, in consequence of a discussion in the House of Commons, Sir John Pakington, then Secretary for War, appointed a Committee of highly competent men to inquire into the condition of the works, and their Report gave a very high opinion of their construction, of the carefulness of the estimates, and generally of the designs. They recommended some modifications, which had been submitted to the Defence and Fortifications Committee, comprising His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief and eminent officers. One of them was that in consequence of the introduction of Captain Moncrieff's gun carriage the guns so mounted would not require the expensive iron shields otherwise necessary, and this would effect a considerable saving.
Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

RAILWAYS ABANDONMENT BILL.
[No. 249.] SECOND READING.
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that by the Act of 1867 the Parliamentary deposit of any company
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was made liable to its debts in the event of its being wound up. Schemes were sometimes got up without any expectation of fulfilment, and the solicitors and others who promoted them not unfrequently incurred considerable expenses, which were at present paid out of the Parliamentary deposits. Now, it was very desirable that, in the case of schemes of an illusory nature, the promoters should be prevented from obtaining repayment of their costs out of the Parliamentary deposit.,It did not appear that the Board of Trade was the proper tribunal for determining whether the scheme was or was not of an illusory character, and this question would be decided by a court of law. The Bill, therefore, empowered a court of law to decide whether the promoters should receive their expenses out of the Parliamentary deposit until all the other creditors had been satisfied.
Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

NATIONAL GALLERY.—RESOLUTION.
THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAsaid, that he had asked a few days ago a Question concerning certain pictures in the National Gallery, but had received an answer which he thought far from satisfactory. The noble Lord who then answered on the part of the Trustees of the National Gallery (Lord Overstone) did not, as he expected, offer any evidence of the genuineness of the pictures then referred to. He had been very much surprised at the statement made by the noble Lord with respect to the power of the Director in purchasing pictures; but having since looked into the Treasury Minute he was bound to say that the noble Lord was perfectly correct in his statement. At the same time a more extraordinary Minute he never saw in his life. From the Minute it seemed that the Trustees had a mere barren power, and all the real power was placed in the Director. It appeared that in the case of the purchase of pictures the whole power of the Trustees was confined to a barren protest, and that pictures were bought upon the judgment of the Director alone, whose decision, upon all the suggestions made to him, would be final. According to the

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Treasury Minute, one of the most important of the duties of the Director was to construct the history of every picture in the collection. In this way the history of one of these pictures had been constructed, no evidence of its genuineness being offered, though opinions were referred to in its favour. Reference was made to Vasari, who was represented to have said that Michael Angelo left many unfinished works in painting. Now, this was a complete misrepresentation of the passage in Vasari, who said that they were finished works. He contended that, for the satisfaction of the Director himself, and certainly for that of the public, it would be better that those who had the power of altering the Treasury Minute should alter it in the terms of the Motion of which he had given notice. What he proposed was—
"That henceforth it be an instruction to Mr. Boxall, R.A., to buy no picture in England without previously submitting it to the judgment of the Trustees of the National Gallery, or any picture in foreign parts which has not got an authentic pedigree from the date of its being painted by the Master to whom it is ascribed to the day of purchase, unless by special permission in writing from the aforesaid Trustees."
Now, he did not think that was at all an unreasonable restriction. The country in no way stinted the National Gallery in the grant of money for the purchase of pictures; and in return he submitted that the country had a right to require genuine works of art, and not works about which there was a great variety of opinion. The variety of opinions respecting the supposed Rembrandt was so great that it should be put, with the spurious "Race Home," in the cellar of the National Gallery. That would be the best place for it, because to see this picture attributed to Rembrandt surrounded by undoubted Rembrandts was too much for a person who had formed a correct notion of art. He hoped he should not be understood as saying anything offensive to Mr. Boxall personally. He had not the honour of that gentleman's acquaintance, and it was only on public grounds that he brought forward this question. He should not trouble their Lordships to divide on his Motion; but having directed attention to the subject, which he thought was really of vital importance, he hoped that something might be done to insure for the future that the public, in return
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for their money, should have pictures about the authenticity of which there could be no doubt.
Moved to resolve, That henceforth it be an instruction to Mr. Boxall, R.A., to buy no picture in England without previously submitting it to the judgment of the Trustees of the National Gallery, or any picture in foreign parts which has not got an authentic pedigree from the date of its being painted by the master to whom it is ascribed to the day of purchase, unless by special permission in writing from the aforesaid Trustees. —(The Earl of Winchilsea and Nottingham.)
EARL GRANYILLEsaid, he did not question that his noble Friend had directed attention to this subject upon public grounds, nor did he venture to impugn the correctness of his taste, knowing the attention he had paid to art subjects. But as to the authenticity of these pictures, he thought he had hardly ever heard a more complete answer than that given the other evening by the noble Lord (Lord Overstone), who, he regretted to say, was not now present, and who was conversant with all the details connected with these pictures. With regard to the mere business question of where the responsibility should rest in these cases, he entirely disagreed from his noble Friend. In his opinion it was of great importance that one paid officer—an officer paid by Parliament — should be made responsible for every purchase. If he did that which the Trustees thought he ought not to do, they could protest against the purchase. But there was no mistake so great as to invest with responsibility a considerable number of persons, sometimes attending, sometimes not attending, and all occupied with other matters. The real mode of insuring effective responsibility was to declare that whatever was done should be done by one paid officer responsible to Parliament and to public opinion. Holding this opinion, he could not encourage his noble Friend in the hope that the Government would be inclined to make the change which he proposed.
Motion, (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.