Lords Sitting of 12 April 1869

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Fine Arts Copyright Consolidation and Amendment (No. 2)* (51).
Second Reading—Salmon Fisheries (Ireland) (43); Railway Companies Meetings* (44).
Third Reading—East India Irrigation and Canal Company* (31), and passed.
Withdrawn—Fine Arts Copyright Consolidation and Amendment* (17).

PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—PETITIONS.
Several noble Lords presented Petitions; some in favour of the Bill, others against it, or praying for amendment of its provisions.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHpresented a Petition from a large number of iron masters and coal owners in the West of Scotland against the Bill. The petitioners pointed out their objections to the Bill. They also stated that the Bill would destroy the voluntary prin-
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ciple in Scotland, and a system of education that had hitherto admirably supplied the educational wants of the people. They asked amongst other things that religious teaching in the schools might be secured by the Bill. The noble Duke said that, under the circumstances, he would appeal to the noble Duke who had charge of the Bill (the Duke of Argyll), to postpone for some short time the Committee on the Bill which stood for that day, in order that the Amendments, of which notice had been given, might be well and amply considered. The noble Duke, when he introduced the measure, represented that it was in conformity with the wishes of the people of Scotland; but he thought the noble Duke could not fail to see, from the number of Petitions that had been presented against it, that a strong feeling of hostility had been elicited against it in its present form, and that various views had been put forward by a number of bodies in Scotland, all desiring the introduction of Amendments. It was clear that the acceptance of the Bill in Scotland had not been so general or universal as the noble Duke at first supposed. He understood that the noble Duke had also a number of Amendments to propose on the part of the Government, which were not in their Lordships' hands, and that, he urged, was another reason for delay. And, as a further reason for postponement, he was informed that at the county meetings to be held in Scotland at the end of the month the subject would be generally brought forward and discussed, when there would be a further opportunity of ascertaining the feeling of the people upon the subject, and by which many valuable suggestions might be offered. He thought the noble Duke would see how desirable it was to postpone the Committee for a short time.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough) had anticipated him in an appeal to his noble Friend to postpone the Committee on the Bill. A more important Bill with reference to Scotland had not been introduced into Parliament for many years; and, considering the immense number of Amendments that had already been given notice of, and the other Amendments referred to, but which had not yet been placed on their Lordships' table, it would be quite impossible for their

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Lordships, if they desired to maintain their reputation for the careful and thorough manner in which they transacted their business, to proceed with the consideration of the measure until they had seen them all, and comprehended their bearings. He did not ask to have the Committee postponed from feelings of hostility to the principle of the measure—that having been approved by a great majority of the people of Scotland—but in hopes that the question might be properly and well considered. The noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Marlborough) was right in stating that they were on the point of holding their county meetings in Scotland, at which the various Committees to whom Bills relating to Scotland were referred would report, and thereby the feeling of the counties would be ascertained upon this measure. He hoped the noble Duke who had charge of the Bill would postpone the Committee until after Whitsuntide, and in the meantime that he would inform their Lordships which Amendments he would adopt and which he would resist.
THE EARL OF AIRLIEalso joined in the appeal for postponement, wishing it, however, to be understood that he hoped the principle of the Bill—a national system of education based on rating—would be sanctioned by Parliament. He could see no great force in the objection that rating tended to dry up voluntary subscriptions; and the necessity of education being admitted, there was no more reason for leaving the burden to be borne by individuals, than for throwing on them the cost of lighting or of repairing the roads.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he had great regret in postponing the Bill, but felt it impossible to resist the appeals of the noble Duke opposite, and his two noble Friends, all of whom he believed to be friendly to the main objects of the Bill. He had no wish to take any course other than that which was best for the cause of national education in Scotland. He had to apologize for not having presented to their Lordships the Amendments he proposed to make in the Bill in Committee, but the fact was that up to Friday last Amendments were showered upon him by Members of their Lordships' House so fast, that he had not had time to consider how many he would adopt and how many he would
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reject. There were some which he should be compelled to resist; but a very large number of them, especially some proposed by his noble Friend opposite (Lord Colonsay), he should gladly accept as decided improvements. Before their Lordships went into Committee he should propose to re-print the Bill, with the Amendments proposed by the Government. Considering that it had been introduced in their Lordships' House with the view of furnishing them with occupation during the early part of the Session, their honour and reputation required that it should be sent down to the House of Commons in sufficient time to give them an ample opportunity of discussing it; but that House was at present fully occupied, and he believed no injury would arise from a postponement till after the 30th instant, the date of the county meetings. He would bog their Lordships not to request a postponement till after Whitsuntide, and hoped they would go into Committee on the 3rd or the 10th of May.
LORD CAIRNSpresumed it was the intention of the noble Duke to move to go into Committee on the Bill pro formâ, for the purpose of re-committing the Bill and having it re-printed.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he had no such intention. He simply proposed to have the Amendments printed before their Lordships went into Committee upon it.
LORD REDESDALEthought it would be much more convenient to have the Bill re-printed with the Amendments in the form in which the noble Duke intended it to be actually proposed. It was impossible otherwise for those unacquainted with the forms of the House to understand what the Government intended to propose.

NAVY—ARMAMENT OF TURRET-SHIPS.

  EXPLANATION.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that since the subject of turret-ships had been under discussion on Thursday last, he had communicated with his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. He was now able to lay on the table the letter addressed by the Admiralty to Admiral Sir James Hope, and also his reply, expressing approval of the proposed new turret-ships. With

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  regard to a Question put by the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) he was able to state that the 25-ton guns intended for the Monarch and Captain had been proved with charges of 83½ lbs. of gunpowder, of which two rounds were fired, the weight of the projectiles each time being 580 pounds.
  The noble Lord then laid on the table Correspondence respecting New Designs for Armour-clad Ships. (No. 52.)

SALMON FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Lord Dufferin.)
SALMON FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 43.) SECOND READING.
  LORD DUFFERINin moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to enable the Lord Lieutenant to appoint two Inspectors. The late Government made such appointments; but as the powers of the existing Commissioners did not expire till the 1st of August next, and as the Fisheries (Ireland) Act provided that they were at that date to be replaced by Inspectors, the Government had been advised that the appointments were invalid.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, he understood that legal opinions differed as to the validity of the appointments. He wished to know whether the gentlemen appointed were to be reinstated, or whether it was intended to supersede them.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that he had presented a Petition signed by the principal fish factors and fishmongers of Dublin, complaining that under the existing law salmon was higher in price and more scarce than it had been heretofore. He thought that the Government ought to institute an inquiry into the subject. It appeared to him that salmon was a fish that ought to be made, if possible, accessible to all classes. He should certainly submit an Amendment when the Bill went into Committee.
  LORD DUFFERINsaid, that when the noble Marquess was prepared to submit his Amendment the Government would give it every consideration. In reply to the noble Marquess he had to state that the question of the re-appointment or otherwise of the Inspectors was one for the Government to determine.
  LORD CAIRNSremarked, that the noble Lord had not answered his Question—namely, whether the Government intended to affirm the appointments already made or to promote other persons?
  EARL GRANVILLEreminded the noble and learned Lord that a few weeks ago he declined to reply to a Question which had been put to him, on the ground that, having already spoken, he was precluded by the rules of the House from doing so. Such being the practice of the House—though their Lordships were always willing to grant leave for a personal explanation—he was surprised that the noble and learned Lord should now have risen a second time.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, that having had a much shorter experience in their Lordships' House than the noble Earl, he was always glad to receive a lesson from him on the point of Order. On this occasion, however, he thought the lesson was not required, for he apprehended it was allowable, if a Question which had been put to a Member of the Government had not been distinctly answered, to rise and call attention to the fact, and this was all that he had done.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not quite see the distinction drawn by the noble and learned Lord between the two cases, but did not wish, after his explanation, to insist on the point.
  LORD REDESDALEasked whether the Inspectors had exercised any functions which would require confirmation?
  LORD DUFFERINsaid, he believed their proceedings had been merely ministerial.
  LORD CHELMSFORDrepeated the question put by his noble and learned Friend, whether the existing appointments would be confirmed or superseded?
  LORD DUFFERINthought his former reply would have been a sufficient intimation that the decision on that point remained at the discretion of the Government.
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  FINE ARTS COPYRIGHT CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT (NO. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for consolidating and amending the Law of Copyright in Works of Fine Art—was presented by The Lord WESTBURY; read 1a. (No. 51.)
  BEVERLEY ELECTION.
  Message from the Commons that they have agreed to an address to be presented to Her Majesty, to which they desire the concurrence of their Lordships.

  SLIGO BOROUGH ELECTION.
  Message from the Commons that they have agreed to an address to be presented to Her Majesty, to which they desire the concurrence of their Lordships.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock,