Lords Sitting of 15 May 1868

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Customs and Income Tax * (100); Exchequer Bonds (£1,600,000) (112).*
NEW PEER INTRODUCED.
Sir John Benn Walsh., Baronet, having been created Baron Ormathwaite of Ormathwaite in the County of Cumberland—Was (in the usual Manner) introduced.
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT, 1886.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORD, in rising to call the Attention of the House to the Operation of the Contagious Diseases Act, 1866, and to ask. Whether it is the Intention of Her Majesty's Government to extend it to London, and to make it more effective by increasing the Hospital Accommodation? said that the necessity for this Act at the time of its introduction a few years since was very great. The health of the Army and the Navy had greatly suffered from the ravages of contagious diseases, and the Returns had shown that an exceedingly large percentage of the men were continually under treatment. The follow-

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  ing passage, taken from the work of a gentleman who had been appointed to inquire into the subject, would show how deteriorating the effects of these diseases had been on the Army and Navy:—
  "Prior to 1862, out of 44,611 men on an average of seven years in the army, there were each year 8,032 cases of syphilis, or 181 laid up for every 1,000 effective. In the navy the proportion was 143 to 1,000. In 1862 and 1863 there were annually more than 300 laid up to 1,000 effective. In 1865 in 73,000 there were 68,000 admissions to hospital for all diseases, 20,000 being cases of syphilis. In the French army, at about the same time, the venereal cases numbered only 40 to every 1,000 effective."
  The provisions of the Act wherever they had been carried out had been the means of doing much good, but from all quarters came the same complaint of the insufficiency of the hospital accommodation. At Aldershot, for instance, in consequence of the absence of sufficient hospital accommodation, only the worst cases could be taken. But at Aldershot, as well as at Woolwich, there had been a great decrease in the number and intensity of the cases since the Act had been in operation. From all the stations where the Act had been tried came similar reports. A Return which had been made of the two years 1865 and 1868 showed that the decrease was represented by the following figures; in the former case the annual ratio per 1,000 of mean strength of troops admitted into hospital, and in the latter the calculation being carried on at the annual ratio to the March quarter:—Woolwich, 204, 150; Aldershot, 302, 207; Chatham, 292, 230; Portsmouth, 329, 260; and Devonport, 360 and 110. But Sheerness was the only place where its provisions had been properly carried out, because here, and here alone, was there sufficient hospital accommodation. The result was that in July last, out of 152 soldiers and sailors, only three men were suffering from disease. Sir Henry Storks, while Governor of the Ionian Islands, had made some stringent regulations, the effect of which was that these diseaases might be said to have disappeared from the Islands. The noble Lord then read at length extracts from publications in relation to this subject, and concluded by saying that he believed that it was the imperative duty of the Government to adopt a system to counteract such a fearful state of things, similar to that which existed in most Continental States. Such a course of proceeding might, no doubt, be attended with
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  expense, but he could not believe it possible that a country which had already voted millions for the Houses of Parliament, for hospitals, and homes for the sick and the poor, would grudge the expenditure of a few thousands in order effectually to check the ravages of this awful plague, and to remedy this great blot upon the character of a Christian nation. He felt grateful to their Lordships for the patient and kind hearing they had given him on this somewhat delicate subject, and he trusted the Government would take up the subject. If they did not a Bill relating to it would next year be introduced either into that or the other House of Parliament. He begged to ask the noble Duke, Whether it is the Intention of Her Majesty's Government to extend the Operation of the Act of 1866 to London, and to make it more effective by increasing the Hospital Accommodation?
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWNbegged to state that a few days ago he had communicated with a friend at Devonport, who had an intimate knowledge of the operation of the Contagious Diseases Act; and he had received from him a variety of statistics, from which it appeared that its operation as regarded the army had been most beneficial, and the amount of disease, which three years ago was upwards of 2 per cent, had been reduced to ½ per cent.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he was sure their Lordships would be ready to admit the very judicious manner in which his noble Friend (Viscount Lifford) had brought forward and treated this most delicate and difficult matter. It was one of great importance as well as difficulty; but he had not been able to discover from, his remarks whether his noble Friend intended that the Contagions Diseases Act should be extended only to the military and naval establishments in the metropolis, or to the civil population generally. [Viscount LIFFORD said he desired the Act to be applied to the civil population.] The operation of the Act in a military point of view had been extremely beneficial. It was passed in 1866, and had reference solely to military and naval stations; but the metropolis was not considered a military station to which the Act could be applied. His noble Friend I asked, it appeared, whether it was in contemplation by Her Majesty's Government to extend the Act to the civil population of the metropolis generally? Now, he

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  must answer the question by saying that they had no intention to undertake so large and onerous a duty. In a military point of view, he repeated, the greatest advantages had resulted from the operation of the Act. It was only that day he observed a paragraph in one of the morning papers containing a number of facts which seemed favourable to his noble Friend's views, and which showed that in several of the naval and military stations the percentage of disease had already been very considerably reduced. But when they came to consider the practicability of applying the provisions of the Act to the civil population generally they were met by very great difficulties. The greatest difficulty was the expense attending such a measure. His noble Friend behind him, the Under Secretary of State for War (the Earl of Longford) had informed him that so far as the War Department was concerned, the expense incurred was £15,000 a year. That expense was, beyond question, very profitably incurred. No doubt, it was, in an economical point of view, the interest of the public that the health of soldiers and sailors should be preserved, and it was most proper that the State should incur a certain amount of expenditure with that view. Although he was free to admit that there were very high and important moral considerations involved in the treatment of this subject, he thought that Parliament could hardly be legitimately called upon to deal with them. They must be left to private benevolence and religious principle. Parliament would, no doubt, be justified in dealing with the question from a physical point of view, and if it could be shown that disease of a contagious and dangerous character was at work among a large portion of the population, it might properly step in and appropriate a certain sum of money for the purpose of arresting the progress of the disease. But he did not think that, under present circumstances, the expenditure which was clearly justifiable in the cases of the army and navy, would be equally justifiable if applied to the civil population. Some idea of the expense that would thus be incurred might be arrived at from the Estimate that, in London alone, if the Act were extended to the Metropolis, about 500 beds would be required, at an expense of £25,000 a year; and if the Act were extended to other large towns, it was easy to conceive what a large expenditure would be involved. He believed
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  that the noble Lord had not mis-stated the serious consequences of these diseases becoming ingrained among the population; but it was a well-known fact in medical experience that all the forms of the disease were not productive of the tremendous consequences which had been adverted to. However, in order to reach the most virulent kinds of the disease, it would be necessary to take under supervision a vast amount of other forms of the disease which were not attended with such serious consequences. This circumstance constituted one of the difficulties in considering how far the Act might be applied to the civil community; and he could not at present hold out any hope that it was the intention of the Government to ask Parliament to place the large expenditure which, would be required to extend the Act to the civil community on the Consolidated Fund. At the same time, he thought that the working of the Act had not been sufficiently brought before the public. Its benefits were very great, and it was most desirable that more information should be diffused upon the subject. If the noble Lord thought that the subject was of sufficient importance to demand further inquiry, and if he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Act, and how far it might be extended with benefit to the civil community, the Government would not oppose the granting of such a Committee.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that anyone who had been connected with the administration of the navy or army must acknowledge the great importance of this subject. The evil had reached to an enormous height. A ship which came into Portsmouth Harbour with her full complement of seamen, and in two or three weeks would hardly be capable of putting to sea. Therefore in 1864 the Department of the Admiralty, after communicating with the War Office, undertook to bring in the first Contagious Diseases Act. No doubt, the subject was one of great difficulty; but all parties in the House of Commons concurred in supporting the measure, and the Bill, after being carefully considered by a Select Committee, was passed. To carry into effect measures of this kind, it was requisite that they should have the assistance of local authorities, and the late Government would have made nothing of their Act had it not been for the exertions of officers and magistrates, and other benevolent persons at Portsmouth and else-

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  where. By their co-operation the hospitals were placed under judicious management, and through their instrumentality many unfortunate women were enabled to obtain employment elsewhere; and thus a very good moral agency was brought to bear in favour of the Act. The noble Duke spoke of the difficulty of extending the operation of the Act beyond military and naval stations; but as the army and navy were dispersed in many other places, it would be most desirable to extend the Act, though it might be, perhaps, inconvenient to apply it to London on account of the immense size of the metropolis. He saw no reason why the Act should not be extended to civilians. The noble Duke spoke of the expense of applying the Act to London, and said it would amount to £25,000; but there could be no doubt if that sum could get rid of the disease, the money might be raised to-morrow. The expense was not the difficulty; but there were many conscientious persons who objected to any measures such as had been suggested being adopted, because they thought that persons should suffer the penalty of their own misconduct. He thought that if the Act were made to apply to the whole country at once, a feeling might be raised which would not be favourable to the gradual extension of the Act, and he would therefore suggest that it should, in the first instance, be extended to some large towns, such as Liverpool, for instance, and other places with which the army and navy were connected, and he did not see why Dublin should he excepted. Nothing, however, could be done without ample hospital accommodation, and he thought that if the Government would give assistance by some small contribution, local bodies would undertake to carry the Act into operation. The matter had really become so serious that it was absolutely necessary to take some further steps of the same nature as those which had succeeded so well at Ports mouth, Plymouth, and Sheerness. While the State was spending a great deal of money for the education of the people, it should be borne in mind that nothing was more important than the health of the population, for very little could be effected in any way if that were not attended to. The consequences of this dreadful disease descended to the children, and the mischief which it entailed was something too dreadful to relate, and he hoped that the Government, without undertaking anything
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  upon a large scale, would take measures to assist local bodies who would adopt the Act.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDsaid, he would act on the suggestion of the noble Duke, and on a future day move for a Select Committee upon the subject,

EGYPTIAN SLAVE TRADE.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF ST. ALBANS, who had given Notice,
  "To move for any Communications received at the Foreign Office during the past Year respecting Slave Markets at or near Cairo, particularly with reference to the Connection of European Subjects with the Egyptian Slave Trade,"
  rose to draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the subject. The successive testimonies of explorers had placed it beyond doubt that the great difficulty to open out the interior of Africa and the impossibility of planting a healthful trade successfully there was owing mainly to the slave trade which the Egyptians carried on against the negro population. Such being the case, when the Viceroy was in Paris last summer, the British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society found the opportunity a good one to petition his Highness on the subject of the Egyptian slave trade. A memorial was influentially signed; the Pasha accorded an audience to the deputation which presented the memorial. This deputation was international and of considerable importance. He found this in his Egyptian Highness's reply, translated by Nubar Pasha, his Foreign Minister, as stated in The Times newspaper of July 5, 1867—
  "The Viceroy felt gratified to receive the deputation, and much pleased this step had been taken, for he was most anxious to put down the slave trade. He had adopted the strongest measures for that purpose, and although he could act against his own people, he was defeated when he sought to do so against Europeans, who were the chief delinquents. …. Within the last thirty years European influence had transformed Egypt, and if he were free to act against European slave traders, the slave trade should soon disappear. The European Powers should give him the necessary authority to exercise the right of search as regards boats sailing under European colours."
  His Highness concluded by saying—
  "The abolition of the British Consulate at Khartoum had certainly enabled him to act more efficiently against the slave traders; but the only really effective mode of dealing with the traffic was to arm him with power to prevent Europeans, from prosecuting it,"

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  The deputation doubtless retired well pleased with the result of their visit. This startling statement of the Viceroy, if true, pointed out an easy way to put a stop to the atrocious human traffic; but when the speech made in Paris was known in Egypt, the truth of the assertions was impugned by the European residents with indignation and irritation. They knew, and the Egyptian Government knew, that numerous slave markets existed, and that these were entirely in the hands of Arab subjects. It was known to Mr. Reade—a gentleman looked up to by those who live under his protection as a valuable public servant, and who was acting Consul General in Egypt last summer—who visited the different slave markets soon after, and personally satisfied himself of the inaccuracy of the Pasha's statement. He did not know whether Mr. Reade made a report of his visit to the Foreign Office. It was natural the Egyptian Ministers last year should wish to raise the popularity of the master they served; but this was not sufficient excuse for an unwarrantable imputation to be cast on foreigners living under the protection of their Government. His Highness said that slavery had existed in Egypt 1,283 years, and was mixed up with the religion of the country. It was doubtful, owing to the existence of forced labour, whether the condition of the imported negro was worse than the born Egyptian in "that land of bondage." The state of society in the East was not such as to satisfy a champion of women's rights, and the social requirements of the country were sought for in the slave markets. His Egyptian Highness hinted it would require time to soften such a violent change. The ruler of a wild and fanatical people should receive every consideration under such circumstances. Should it be as the Viceroy stated he thought such powers of search and every facility should be granted but if, as he feared, that was mere dust thrown into the eyes of Europe, he did not think any politic motive ought to be an objection to the production of such documents as would contradict the statement of the Viceroy that European subjects were engaged in the Egyptian slave trade.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, the Government had no Correspondence on that subject except that which was attainable by the noble Duke whenever he pleased. The last Correspondence relating to it between the Foreign Secre-
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  tary and Consul Reade was printed at the end of 1867, and would be found in class B, pages 41 and 47. If the noble Duke referred to it he would see that Her Majesty's Government had done what they could to prevent the slave trade to which he alluded, and that Consul Reade had had some success in stopping the sale of slaves. After that, Lord Stanley had repeated his instructions to the Consul to proceed in the same way. Her Majesty's Government had attended to the matter, and he thought nothing more could be done in it at present. The noble Duke, when he read the Correspondence, would find that to be so.

  REPORTS OF THE COMMISSION ON RITUAL.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYasked the Lord Privy Seal, What are the Intentions of Her Majesty's Ministers in respect of the Two Reports of the Commission on Ritual? Nearly twelve months had elapsed since the Government appointed a Commission on Ritual, and two Reports from the Commissioners were now before the House. The country, although it had been very attentive and most anxious indeed on the subject, had, he believed, been disposed to make some allowance for the delay that had occurred; but he could assure the noble Earl that the public were now becoming exceedingly impatient, and were not inclined to make any allowance whatever for further delay. He, therefore, wished to ask the noble Lord what the intentions of Her Majesty's Ministers were in respect of the two Reports now before the House?
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he thought the noble Earl could hardly; expect Her Majesty's Government to take action on a question, which naturally involved a great deal of public feeling on both sides, until they had a perfect Report from the Commission to which the subject had been entrusted. As to the delay which had occurred, he regretted it as much as the noble Earl did, and he thought the greater the delay the greater would be the excitement; but Her Majesty's Government could not control the pace at which the Commission moved. That was a point which must be left entirely to the discretion of the Commissioners, who were men well fitted to deal with the important question that had been referred to them. At the same time he

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  concurred in the opinion that it was very desirable there should be no undue delay in the matter.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYwas anxious to know whether the most reverend Primate could give them any hope that the inquiry would be concluded in time for legislation this year. Really this was no trifling matter. The feeling upon it was deep. Great interest was taken in it, not only by the educated classes, but by the mass of the working people of this country; and if he were to quote to their Lordships the letters he had received from Lancashire and Yorkshire on the subject, they would see that, in consequence of that delay, the very fate of the Church of England was trembling in the balance. In default of action by the Government he had himself, in May of last year, introduced a Bill for the regulation of vestments; but the Government took the matter out of his hands, saying that he and the country also might be satisfied that care should be taken that the first Report would be upon vestments. Well, what was that Report? Merely that the first legislative enactment to be passed should relate to the subject of vestments. And now, when they had two Reports before them, and they were ripe for legislation, they were told to wait for the Report upon the Lectionary and two or three unimportant rubrics. That, he would tell their Lordships, would not do: if persevered in the greatest mischief would result from it.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYwas understood to say that a charge had been brought against the Commissioners both there and elsewhere, that they had not sent to the Queen's Printer the whole of the Report as it had been given in the newspapers. The fact was that the Commissioners had sent to the Queen's Printer the body of the Report, and also the reasons of certain members of the Commission for dissenting from that Report. On the 2nd of May the Report was out of the hands of the Queen's Printers, sent to the Home Office, and then laid before Her Majesty. He (the Archbishop of Canterbury) and the Home Secretary also then authorized the Secretary to the Commission to send the Report to the newspapers.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, there must be some misapprehension on the part of the noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) as to the connection between the first and second Reports and the Report that was
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  to follow. The noble Earl seemed to think that there could be no legislation on the subject of the first and second Reports of the Commissioners before the presentation of the third Report; whereas the subjects of the two first Reports were separate and complete in themselves, and in no way dependent on the third. The House was aware that the third Report, in all probability, would embrace a vast number of rubrics, extending throughout the whole of the Prayer Book; and to expect that it could be ready in a very short time was simply to expect that the Commissioners would not do their duty. Their business was, with the utmost care, to go through a great number of rubrics; and, in proportion to the importance and extent of the work to be done, the time taken in doing it seemed to him to have been very short indeed. The remarks of the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had reference to matters which were subjects entirely by themselves, and which had been treated as fully as possible in the two Reports in question. It was totally impossible to bring the third Report to a speedy conclusion; but it was not necessary to await the third Report before steps were taken in relation to the two former.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYventured to protest against the tone of menace in which his noble Friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had advanced his views on this subject. To listen to his noble Friend one would imagine that he had an enormous physical force in the country at his back—a Barebones Parliament sitting in the other House, and a Puritan Minister storming at their Lordships' Bar. It was not a subject to be dealt with in the excited manner in which his noble Friend introduced it. It was one affecting most deeply the most earnest thoughts and religious feelings of great numbers of Her Majesty's subjects. If ever there was a subject that required to be treated with care and caution, and deliberation, it was those matters which, in themselves, might be thought unimportant, but which, in. their bearing on the belief of religious men in this country, were supremely important, and likely, if dealt with rashly and inconsiderately, to precipitate divisions, which he was sure his noble Friend would be the first to deprecate. They needed to be considered with extreme care, precisely on account of their apparent insignificance. It was precisely because the matters in

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  dispute were not disputed on account of their intrinsic value, but because they were supposed to be important as symbols of the doctrines to which they all attached the deepest value—it was for that reason that they had taken a deep hold of the feeling of the country, and had excited the earnest fears and apprehensions of his noble Friend; and it was on that account he was afraid they would excite fears and apprehensions on the other side, which would produce violent dissensions in the Church of England, if any incautious proceedings were taken. He ventured to press upon the Government, precisely opposite advice to that given by the noble Earl. This was a matter demanding the very utmost caution; and the Government were bound to see that no measure was introduced, except such as they would certainly be able to carry without producing divisions in the Church of England. He entreated their Lordships not to be excited by such an appeal as that they had heard from the noble Earl, to precipitate themselves into a course of hasty legislation. Were they to do so, they might suddenly find themselves on the brink of a great crisis—such a crisis as that which took place twenty-five years ago in the Church of Scotland. Therefore he earnestly counselled the Government not to be precipitate in inviting legislation.
  LORD LYTTELTONdeprecated the application of such phrases as "trembling in the balance" to the state of the Church of England. It generally happened, if the noble Earl's (the Earl of Shaftesbury's) wishes were not acted on, that he at once declared the Church of England was lost. He had no part in such fears.
  LORD TAUNTONsaid, that a question like this, in which so much controversy was intermixed, required the most cautious and deliberate treatment; and it was most unfortunate that when the public mind was so much agitated nothing should be done authoritatively to guide it. In his opinion it was not in the least necessary to wait for the expected Report before the subjects already reported on were brought under the notice of Parliament. The advice given by the Commissioners was moderate and complete, and he saw no reason for delay.
  LORD EBURYsaid, he would not say a word in defence of his noble Friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) who was very capable of defending himself. He (Lord Ebury) was not aware of the feeling of his brother
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  Commissioners, but his own expectation had been that the Government who appointed the Commission would immediately follow up the recommendations of the Commission by legislation. Had the noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) merely stated that the condition of Public Business would not permit of immediate legislation, he would have rested content; but the announcement that Government did not intend to bring in a Bill until the Commission had reported on the whole of the subject before them had positively alarmed him. Considering the state of religious feeling in the country, and the numerous and influential signatures attached to the petitions that had been presented to the House, he did not wonder the noble Earl near him (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had spoken strongly; he wondered rather at the noble Earl's great patience up to this time. He himself was exceedingly anxious on the subject, and predicted that great danger would result to the Church if things were left in their present unsatisfactory state. He held it the duty of the Government to act as speedily as possible with a view of putting an end to further contention.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, he must confess himself very much disappointed by what had fallen from his noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal. It was not to be expected that the Government should declare authoritatively its intentions so soon after the second Report had been presented, and he thought it wholly premature to address any question upon it at the present time; but his disappointment lay in this—that he understood from his noble Friend that the Government was waiting till the third Report was produced before any legislation would be instituted on the subject. He heard that declaration with utter astonishment, and he could not yet think that such was the deliberate intention of the Government. Speaking for himself—and, perhaps, for others as well as himself—he could see no reason why they should wait, before proceeding to legislation, for the third Report, which had no connection of subject with its predecessors. The third Report would take a considerable time in preparation; and he asserted in the presence of some of his brother Commissioners that it would not add an iota of information or any one further point of recommendation on the specific topics that had already been reported on. The case was this—The recom-

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  mendations of the Commissioners as regarded vestments, lights, and incense, were already fully before their Lordships; these recommendations might be good or bad, but, such as they were, they were full, entire, and complete. Then what pretence was there for saying that, when legislation was needed, the Government would wait till the third Report was presented, when it was quite certain that there would not be a word in it which would bear upon the previous subjects. He hoped his noble Friend (the Earl of Malmesbury) would not, on further consideration, adhere to the Answer he had given. It was quite proper that the Government should have more ample leisure for deliberation on this subject, but it was not proper as he (Earl Stanhope) presumed to think, that they should adduce as a reason for not introducing a Bill the expectation of a further Report from the Commission, which so far as this subject went they would certainly never receive.
  LORD OVERSTONEwas understood to say that this was a subject on which there was much conflict of opinion, and he thought that speedy legislation, if it was of a moderate and conciliatory character, was desirable.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was one of those who thought that the earnestness displayed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) was neither unnatural nor misplaced. The noble Earl asked what the Government proposed to do with reference to the two Reports already presented? But there were two or three questions the Government had to consider before they were in a position to state what they proposed to do with the two Reports. Their Lordships must remember that the second of these Reports had only been in print for about a week; and the first one, as must be admitted by everyone, was incomplete until the second had been presented. The first question the Government had to consider was how far those two Reports were complete without any further information; and upon that point he must own that, from what had fallen that evening from noble Lords who had themselves been members of the Commission, they had, as far as the subject matter of these two Reports went, completely and entirely discharged the duties assigned to them. Then, taking these Reports as complete, the next question was as to the proper steps to be taken, supposing legislation to be possible during
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  the present Session. But supposing legislation to be possible during the present Session, was it absolutely necessary? The Government would not approach this question but with the greatest caution; and he ventured to think that the Government would be guilty of a gross dereliction of duty if they attempted to propose a measure during the present Session without great deliberation, and unless there was a prospect of their being able to carry it through Parliament. The third question was whether, in the present state of the Session there was any prospect of carrying any new business through the present Parliament—whether it would not be impossible, even if sufficient time had elapsed for a measure to be prepared, to place that measure on the table of the House, and, though supported, as it probably would be, by a majority of the members of the Commission, to excite a discussion which could not possibly be closed during the present Session? Speaking for himself, and he believed for many of his Colleagues, he thought it was utterly impossible that deliberation of any satisfactory kind could have taken place since the presentation of the Report, and that the Government might fairly be excused from not stating what course they intended to pursue.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he did not suspect the Government of being animated by any particular feeling of party in this matter; but he thought that a change had come over their view since they asked the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) to withdraw his Bill. The truth was that Her Majesty's Government were not now in the position in which they were last year. They were then carrying their measures with a high hand; but were now merely enjoying a respite before a dissolution took place. Their Lordships, he thought, ought not to be too hard upon an Administration placed in such a position.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, it was hardly possible that the Government could have been prepared with a definite Answer, as to the course they proposed to take, when it was remembered that the Report had been in their hands only for a few days; though they need not, perhaps, have said that they would wait for the third Report. The Government had nothing whatever to do with the action of the Commission. The inquiry might have been tedious, but no one acquainted with the difficulties with which the question

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  was surrounded would be surprised at the time the inquiry had occupied. It was unfair to complain that the Government had not yet announced the course they intended to pursue, because the subject was one which required a great deal of deliberation, before action was taken upon it.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I can only express my regret that I should have been misunderstood—for it is impossible that any of your Lordships should misrepresent another, unless there was misunderstanding—and I desire to offer a few words in explanation. What I said, or meant to say, was, that in consequence of the delay that has occurred in laying the Reports before this House—the last Report only having been printed two days ago—it would be impossible for the Government to take any action in the matter, at least, until after the presentation of the third Report. I thought it would be surplusage, and perfectly puerile, to tell your Lordships, who know everything which passes in the country, that it would be impossible for the Government to consider so important and exciting a subject at this period of the year, and in the face of the difficulties which, I am free to confess, we are labouring under, in the other House of Parliament. Let us look at things practically. Does the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury), who thinks everything possible which he undertakes, believe that I could bring forward a Bill this Session, and pass it through both Houses? If he does believe that I could have done so, pray let him try to do it himself. No one doubts his sincerity, and it is not necessary for him to bring in a Bill to prove his sincerity. But it is equally unnecessary for the Government to defend themselves against the insinuation of the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) that it is our fault in any way that this question is not ripe for legislation. What action could we have recommended that would have hastened the inquiry? We have patiently waited for the Report, which has only been put in a shape to be read by us two days ago. It is, of course, my own fault, if I have been misunderstood; but what I meant to gay was that, in the present state of things, it is impossible that any action could be taken until the time when the third Report will probably have been laid before your Lordships. I hope, after this explanation, that the astonishment and the disappointment expressed by the noble
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  Earl behind me will diminish. The noble Earl opposite (Earl de Grey and Ripon) said, that the Government is changed—that it has no longer the same head that it had.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPON: I said, the position of the Government had changed.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: The position of the Government has changed, and I do not think it was expected, even by the noble Earl himself, considering the state of public affairs—that the change that has occurred would have been effected this year, until a fair field had been prepared and opened, for the final decision of the country, as to which of the two parties should govern. In consequence of circumstances, into which I shall not enter—but which are due to no fault of ours—our position has changed; but I beg leave to differ altogether from the noble Earl, when he says that we have no longer the confidence of Parliament. Parliament does not consist of one House only. It has not yet pleased the House of Commons to declare that it has no confidence in the Government, nor have I any recollection that any vote, either during the present or during last Session, which at all tended in that direction, has been agreed to by your Lordships. Therefore, I cannot help thinking that the noble Earl opposite went out of his way to give us what is called "a slap in the face." I may add that the noble Earl's statement, on this occasion, was not made with his usual accuracy.
  LORD OVERSTONEexplained that he had only intended to complain of the postponement of legislation upon this subject to a future Session.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.