Lords Sitting of 16 March 1868

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Tenure (Ireland), The Lord Ponsonby and The Lord Meredyth added.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Railways (Extension of Time) (36).
Third Reading—Ecclesiastical Commissioners Orders in Council (33), and passed.

RAILWAYS (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL. (NO. 36.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that its object was to give a power of granting to certain railway companies an extension of the time within which their works were to be completed. In the year 1847 a measure was passed (11 Vict., c. 3) which empowered the Board of Trade, on application being made within two months from the
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passing of the Act, to extend the time by two years for the completion of railways. There were under that Act 168 applications in consequence of the great pressure of the money market, and the Act was found to work well. During the last Session an Act was passed to enable parties to go before the Board of Trade, and, under certain restrictions, to obtain power to abandon certain railway lines, and twenty-eight applications had been made under that Act. He was sorry the Act did not contain a provision for the extension of time for completing railways, and he had therefore prepared the present Bill, which would enable companies, under similar stringent regulations, to obtain that power. It had passed through the other House of Parliament, and he believed that, if it should become law, it would be beneficial not only to the companies interested, but also to the public and to the landowners whose property the lines would traverse. In many cases it would be hard upon the public and the landowners to compel companies to abandon their lines altogether. The Bill would enable the Board of Trade to extend for two years the period originally granted for the completion of a railway; the period for making the application having been extended to one year from the passing of the Bill, and a proviso had been inserted in the other House which would enable the Board of Trade to ascertain whether the company applying for an extension of time would be able to complete the line within the extended time, and unless the application be bonâ fide it would not be entertained. That provision would prevent any abuse of the powers granted by the measure, which was one to which no objection could then be offered, and which, he believed, would operate in many cases very beneficially.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Duke of Richmond.)
LORD REDESDALEexpressed a hope that the Board of Trade would take pains to ascertain, before granting warrants, the likelihood of the lines being completed by the time named in them.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS ORDERS IN COUNCIL BILL— [H.L.]
(The Lord Chancellor.)

(NO. 33.) THIRD READING.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD REDESDALEasked, whether the Orders made had not been irregular, and in transgression of the powers contained in the Acts of Parliament of the Commissioners?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid a number of Orders had been made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners professing to be in pursuance of the powers contained in the Acts of Parliament, and dealing with the capitular property mentioned in the Schedules of the Bill. He was not prepared to say all, but under many of those Orders purchases and sales had taken place, and the titles of the purchasers had not been questioned. But when two Orders which had lately been made had been presented for the confirmation of Her Majesty in Council, objections were taken by a dignitary of the Church, who presented a petition in the usual form. The petition in the ordinary course was referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, who felt it to be their duty to report to Her Majesty that those two Orders ought not to be confirmed; and, as some doubt might thus arise with respect to the validity of the other Orders under which purchases and sales of property had taken place, the present Bill had been introduced for the purpose of removing any such doubt. The measure was, he believed, framed in entire conformity with the general practice of removing all doubts with respect to the legality of the action of public bodies who had exercised powers with which they believed they were invested, and under whose sanction large amounts of property had changed hands without any opposition.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEYIn reply to Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY,
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that, so far as he knew, and had been informed, all the cases mentioned in the Schedules of the Bill were cases of Orders where property had changed hands.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, it was a question whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had power to pass Orders which transferred chapteral property to them; but, at the same time, he agreed with the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack that any sales which had been made on
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the faith of these Orders being good ought to be confirmed by Parliament.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked, if there was any objection to stating in the Schedule what was the nature of the transactions?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, their Lordships should bear in mind that every one of the Orders had been published verbatim in The London Gazette from time to time, and the dates of their publication were given in the Schedule. There had therefore been ample notice to the public as to everything which those Orders professed to do; and their Lordships might infer, from the fact that no one had ever appeared to object to the Orders, that it never occurred to any person, until the two recent occasions to which he had referred, that any objections could validly be entertained.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEYIn reply to Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY,
The DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, that the Orders having been passed by Her Majesty's Council, had, in themselves, the effect of validity in law. In consequence of a recent decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, however, a doubt arose as to whether the Act of Parliament was sufficient to authorize the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in what they had done; but there could be no doubt as to the validity of Her Majesty's Orders in Council. Large transactions having taken place under those Orders, both in the alienation of property and in the re-transference of estates to the ecclesiastical corporations, it was necessary that an Act of Parliament should be passed to set at rest any doubt as to the power of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in their share of the transactions; but the Orders of Her Majesty in Council might be supposed to have the effect of validity in law.
Bill read 3a accordingly; and passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.