Lords Sitting of 9 March 1868

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Bankruptcy Acts Repeal* (30); Bankruptcy* (31); Judgment Debtors* (32); Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Orders in Council (33); Regulation of Railways* (34).
Committee—Public Departments (Extra Receipts)* (25); Registration of Writs (Scotland)* (15).
Report—Public Departments (Extra Receipts)* (25); Registration of Writs (Scotland)* (15).

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS' ORDERS IN COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had to present to their Lordships a measure for the purpose of declaring valid certain Orders of Her Majesty in Council, relating to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of England, and the Deans and Chapters of certain churches. The object of the Bill was simply this. It appeared that during the last fifteen years various Orders in Council relating to capitular property had been submitted by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for the approval of Her Majesty in Council; and had been approved of. Sales under these Orders had been completed in the usual way, but very recently two further schemes of the same kind were presented for confirmation by Her Majesty in Council, and objection having been taken to them, the question was submitted to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. On the recommendation of the Judicial Committee, these schemes were disallowed by Her Majesty in Council, and the effect of that proceeding had been to cast a certain amount of doubt upon the validity of the previous Orders made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Their Lordships would doubtless be of opinion that no doubt of that kind should be allowed to remain where a large amount of sales had taken place upon the faith of the validity of the Orders; and it was in order to remove these doubts that he now presented this Bill to their Lordships.
  Motion agreed to.
  A Bill for declaring valid certain Orders of Her Majesty in Council relating to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England and to the Deans and Chapters of certain Churches—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a (No. 33.)

RAILWAYS (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in moving for a Copy of the Instructions issued to the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the State and Value of the Railways of Ireland, said that the matter in question was to his mind of such vital importance that he thought their Lordships ought to be made acquainted with the Instructions upon which the Commissioners acted, and the point to which their inquiries were directed. He believed in his conscience that since the Union a more important measure, with the exception of Catholic Emancipation, was never taken in hand by the Government of the country. That Parliament should deal with the Irish railways was, in his opinion, absolutely necessary for the progress of Ireland; and not only was it absolutely necessary for material progress, but he felt convinced that the earnest consideration and the determination of the subject would have the greatest effect upon the whole feeling and disposition of the Irish towards the Government and towards people of this country. It should be known to their Lordships that in Ireland a conviction was entertained that in matters touching the prosperity, and especially the commercial progress of the country, there was not a sincere desire to promote the welfare of Ireland, but, on the contrary, a jealousy and a disposition to do nothing, except what was forced upon the Government of the day, and upon the Imperial Parliament. He was not going to argue the question, whether this feeling was rightly or wrongly entertained, he merely thought it proper to state it as a fact which could not be too deeply impressed on the minds of the Members of both Houses of Parliament. Under these circumstances, therefore, he thought himself justified in asking Her Majesty's Ministers to allow the House to know what were the Instructions under which the Commissioners were acting. He had no doubt that they were pursuing their inquiries into the financial position of the railways—their liabilities, debts, and the general condition of the property with admirable discretion and judgment, and that they would by and-by form a very accurate estimate of the value of that property. He apprehended that they would not fail to inquire also into all such general agreements as working arrangements, but there were more secret engagements—at
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  least they were secret in the first instance, though he believed in most cases they had come to light—which it was most desirable should be brought to the knowledge of Her Majesty's Ministers and of Parliament before any decision was arrived at as to the course which should be pursued, in treating with this question of railway accommodation. In Ireland the people, being far more feeble than here, suffered infinitely greater grievances from the monopoly of railway companies than were suffered in England. He did not complain of the fact that the large railway companies possessed a monopoly. When Parliament created those bodies they created monopolies from the very nature of the case. But what he said was this, that the result of establishing those great companies without any control was, that grievous loss was occasioned to the country, in proportion to the accommodation that railways afforded. Nothing could be more absurd than to talk as people did when they spoke of the English system of railway management, as compared with the system abroad, as one of free competition. There could be no such thing as free competition in such a case. He differed from the conclusion which had been come to by the Commissioners of 1866, that the competition between railways necessarily lowered the tolls and rates which would otherwise be imposed by canals for the carriage of goods. In Ireland, exactly the reverse had taken place, and it was a fact that goods were now carried across that country to some places at a higher rate than was charged before railways were established, and he was informed that in part of England the case was the same. For what happened? The railway monopolists combined for their own advantage, and the public had no check or control over them. For instance, in Ireland, the Great Southern and Western and the Great Midland, after a short competition, entered into a combination between themselves, and an agreement was come to by which the canals were to be bought up; but the voice of the nation cried out against that project, and it was given up. However, the railway companies came to an arrangement with the canals, and compelled them to charge a certain rate for the conveyance of goods upon their waters. Not only had they thus obtained possession of the canals, but, as was shown at a recent railway meeting, they had even taken possession of the navigation of the Shannon. In his opinion, therefore, it was right that

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  Parliament should know what were the secret agreements into which the railways had entered. In point of fact, partly through the effect of monopoly, partly through the operation of the Standing Orders of their Lordships' House, and partly in consequence of the system, or rather want of system, which prevailed with regard to railway accommodation throughout the Empire, the creation and extension of railways had come to an absolute stoppage in Ireland. The question of this monopoly ought to be inquired into by the Commissioners, and he hoped the House would soon know how the whole matter stood by the production of the Instructions which he now moved for. No matter what might be the necessities of the case, if their Lordships continued to act as they did at present, they would put an end to the making of any railway or even trainway, and the people of Ireland would throughout extensive districts be compelled to do without what was considered all over the world a primary necessary of civilized life. He hoped, then, that their Lordships would obtain full information as to the secret agreements entered into by the companies, and he begged to repeat his conviction that the people of Ireland were fully persuaded that the prosperity and progress of the country depended entirely upon the way in which this question was treated. He could assure their Lordships that it was his conviction, and the conviction of better authorities than himself, that there was no subject—for he would except none—which was of more vital importance to the quiet of the country and to the removal of discontent than the proper treatment of this question, and that was a feeling which prevailed, not only among the ignorant peasantry, as they were called, but among the middle classes and even the upper classes.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, A Copy of the Instructions issued to the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the State and Value of the Railways of Ireland.—(The Lord Somerhill.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he would refrain from following the noble Marquess into the general policy of railway administration in Ireland. The noble Marquess was aware that last year a very influential and numerous deputation, which he accompanied, waited upon Lord Derby to bring under his notice a statement in reference to the railways in Ireland, with a view to their being purchased by the State.
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  Lord Derby took the subject into consideration; it was brought before the Cabinet, and a Committee of the Cabinet was appointed to look into it and report what measures ought to be adopted. It was found necessary, before any opinion could be formed as to whether it was wise to purchase the Irish railways, that their value should be thoroughly ascertained—the value of the rolling stock, the plant, and the state of the rails, and that all matters connected with the internal affairs of each company should be investigated before any decision could be arrived at. An Act of Parliament was passed to give the Commissioners power to investigate the accounts of the various companies. In accordance with that Act a Commission was issued. He did not think that the competition between the Companies or the various other matters to which the noble Marquess had alluded came within the terms of the Commission. If the noble Marquess was desirous of having a Return of the various working agreements between the companies, that might be furnished; but it would not be for the public advantage to lay on the table a copy of the Instructions which had been given to the Commissioners, inasmuch as he hoped the Report would be furnished shortly after Easter. That Report would not include the working agreements, but they might be added to it.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

NAVY—ROYAL DOCKYARDS.

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET, in moving for a Return of the Number of Tons of Iron Ballast sold from the Royal Dockyards since January, 1867, and the Amount of Money received for this Iron and paid into the Treasury, said he would state shortly his reasons for desiring this Return. It might be in the recollection of their Lordships that some time ago a statement was made that the iron ballast in the dockyards, which had been used largely for paving the yards, was of very great value, and that its use for paving purposes involved a great waste of public money. That remark did not apply in particular to the Board of Admiralty with which he was connected, but to the Boards which had existed for many years. When he first heard of this statement, some years ago, the Admiralty sent some of the ballast to certain iron

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  manufacturers to be tried, and a small quantity was sold; but afterwards those persons declined to purchase any more, stating that it was not worth their while to do so, and no other purchaser could be found. However, the accusation against the Admiralty had since been repeated again and again, and at the commencement of last Session a Member of the House of Commons stated that he was prepared to produce a person who would give a very large sum, amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds, for that ballast. The right hon. Baronet who was then First Lord of the Admiralty expressed his willingness to accept the offer, and said he should be too glad to dispose of it in this way. Now, a great many charges had been made at different times against the Admiralty management, some of them as to the cost of building ships, others as to the mode of classifying the accounts in the dockyards. Now, these were questions of a very complicated and difficult nature, upon which opinions might differ; but here was a clear issue. It was stated distinctly and definitively that the ballast was worth so much money, and that a purchaser could be produced, the offer was accepted, and he wished, therefore, to know how far the statement had been verified. A year had elapsed since it had been made, and the offer had been accepted. Last Session he did not move for any information on the subject, because he thought he would give ample time for verifying the statement. But now he thought it desirable to have a Return of the number of tons of iron ballast sold and the amount of money received for it. Their Lordships and the country would then, from the accuracy or otherwise of the statement made on this subject, be able to judge of the accuracy of statements made from the same quarter in regard to other Admiralty matters. If it was found that the statement made respecting this ballast was greatly exaggerated or wholly unfounded, they might well conclude that the hon. Member in the House of Commons had been rather carried away by his imagination, and it would not be unreasonable on the part of their Lordships and the public to withhold their confidence from other statements made against the Admiralty on other subjects.
  Return of the Number of Tons of Iron Ballast sold from the Royal Dockyards since January 1867:—Amount of Money received for this Iron, and paid into Treasury.—(The Duke of Somerset.)
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, there was no objection to give the noble Duke the Returns for which he had asked, and they would be produced as soon as possible.
  Return ordered to be laid before the House.
  BANKRUPTCY ACTS REPEAL BILL [H.L.] A Bill to repeal Enactments relating to Bankruptcy and to Matters connected therewith: Also,
  BANKRUPTCY BILL [H.L.] A Bill to amend the Law of Bankruptcy: And also,
  JUDGMENT DEBTORS BILL [H.L.] A Bill to abolish Arrest on Final Process in Civil Actions in England, and otherwise to amend the Law relating to Judgments, Decrees, and Orders, and to Arrest—Were severally presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (Nos. 30, 31, 32.)

  REGULATION OF RAILWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Law relating to Railways—Was presented by The Duke of RICHMOND; read 1a. (No. 34.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.