Lords Sitting of 12 June 1868

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—On Compulsory Church Rates Abolition. (No. 143.)
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Fine Arts Copyright Consolidation and Amendment * (145).
Second Reading—Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 2) * (139).
Committee—Army Chaplains * (116–146).
Report—Compulsory Church Rates Abolition * (55–144).

SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, BRTGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDErose to move as an Amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The Bill in his opinion was of such a character and so seriously affected the public interests, that objection ought to be taken to it at once, so that their Lordships might see the full effect of its provisions before they referred it to a Committee. He objected to the Bill both in its principle and details—it was a retrogressive step in the policy that had hitherto been pursued with regard to railways. He did not mean to imply that our past policy in regard to railways had been the right one—indeed, he had for many years thought that the system on which the railways of this country had been constructed was a most unfortunate one, involving as it did in so many cases the maximum of expenditure for the minimum of result; and no cases had so strongly exemplified his opinions as those of the three railways, the London, Chatham and Dover, the South-Eastern, and the London, Brighton and South Coast; for although the name of the London, Chatham and Dover Railway did not appear in the title of this Bill, there was a clause in it the purport and object of which was that that railway should be, not amalgamated, but combined with the others, as against the public, in the federation which it was the object of this Bill to establish. Properly speaking, this was not an amalgamation, but a federation Bill. It was essentially the nature of railway companies to create to a certain extent a monopoly, and it was the object of the Bill to establish through out a large portion of the South of England a complete monopoly which could not be interfered with. These three railways had competed in that extravagance which the existing system of legislation with regard to railways fostered and encouraged, until they had been brought to the verge of ruin; and they were now compelled by the force of circumstances to combine and endeavour to regain from the public the large sums of money they had thus recklessly spent. At all events, this had been openly stated, though he would not trouble their Lordships by reading newspaper

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  extracts on the subject. He was not opposed to amalgamation, even under the present system, to a certain extent and under certain circumstances. In very long lines going from the North to the South or from the East to the West, it was very convenient to the public and economical both to the public and the companies that what was termed an amalgamation should be made. But this case was nothing of the kind, for in the districts affected by the present measure there was no continuous line which called for such an arrangement. The lines in question had been sanctioned by Parliament more or less for the very purposes of competition, and the Companies having ruined themselves, now combined in order to raise their prices and powers of charging fares and tolls in a manner which he boldly asserted was wholly without precedent. And here he would point out to their Lordships that this measure affected not only the public of England but also the public of Europe; because the district over which these railways passed served the seaboard from which we communicated with France and the Continent. Then again, the Bill would affect not the wealthier classes exclusively who could afford to pay, but would press with great severity on the working and lower classes, especially those who resided in the suburb of the metropolis. It was their own mismanagement that had brought these companies into difficulties, and now they wanted the public to refund them the expense of their extravagance; and they not only asked for a monopoly of the district through which their lines ran, but for the power of at once charging whatever they pleased. It was stated in the newspapers that these Companies had already raised their fares to the maximum allowed by law, and reference to Bradshaw showed that these statements were well founded. This Bill, however, would empower the directors to charge l½d. a mile for third class passengers by ordinary trains; while, with regard to first and second class passengers by express or fast trains, running at the rate of forty miles an hour or upwards, they proposed that an additional charge without any limit whatever might be imposed. They had the power of reducing the number of trains as they pleased, and if such a power were granted the consequence would probably be that there would be only the smallest possible number of the slowest
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  ordinary trains stopping at every station, and express trains for which an unlimited charge might be made. In fact, there would be the maximum of price and the minimum of accommodation. The Bill also authorized the Companies to impose an additional charge on all passengers to and from metropolitan stations within four miles of Charing Cross—namely 1s. for first class, 9d. for second class, and 6d. for third class passengers. They talked of the hardship inflicted on the working classes by causing them to live in overcrowded dwellings in towns; but what was that to the hardships imposed on those who had gone to live in the country on the faith of low railway fares, and then found the rates raised upon them? This was totally different from the case of a new railway, where the conditions of using it were fixed for the first time; this was a case of railways that were made and the conditions fixed; and now the managers came before Parliament and asked for additional powers of charge. He did not think it at all unreasonable, that higher rates should be charged for passage of the necessarily costly bridges over the Thames, and for convenient stations at the London termini; but with every wish that the metropolitan termini and bridges on all the stations on a line should be what they ought to be, he could not but think that in respect of such works some of these Companies had been very extravagant. There had been a waste of money on bridges and stations which would have gone far to furnish an extensive district in the South west with lines which had been abandoned but which were much required. The Companies which presented the Bill now before their Lordships sought by the Bill to recoup themselves for their vast outlay on bridges and stations; but this was an expenditure the effect of which on the profits of the lines they ought to have considered before they incurred it. It was rather hard that they should now ask for Parliamentary; powers to enable them to make the public pay for their extravagance. They now said in effect, "You (the public) must repay us the money which we have squandered." Neither did he think that the districts through which the Companies' lines passed had been so well supplied with railway accommodation as Parliament intended. Powers to make useful railways had been obtained; but the Companies having come to a stand, were obliged to

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  apply to Parliament for relief, and, under the circumstances, Parliament had wisely granted it. He believed, however, that several of those railways might have been constructed in an efficient manner for one-half the money which railway companies had recklessly spent in works which had been made unnecessarily expensive. The Bill had only been put down the previous day for second reading, and that day was the last on which a Private Bill could be read the second time, and therefore he had not much time to learn what was the position of the Bill with regard to opposition; but he had learned that there were petitions against it presented by the Victoria Station Company and by individuals; and he had no reason to doubt that these petitions were genuine, and would be brought before the Committee; he had no doubt either that their Lordships would select an intelligent Committee to consider them, if the Bill were allowed to proceed; but then it was to be remembered that there would be nobody there to represent the general public. At the moment he was speaking those petitions might be diminished; the petitioners might be bought off. There would be nothing wrong in that. If a man had a grievance, when that grievance was redressed he was satisfied but what was to satisfy the middle class men and the artizans, who coming up to the metropolis from day to day to their avocations, returned in the evening to their homes? Who would look after the interests of those who went from year to year to the Continent? Who would represent the interests of the public in the district at large? Nobody. He did not believe, indeed, that if the Bill did go into Committee, it would be suffered to come out again without great alterations; but he thought it better to call their Lordships' attention to it at this stage, and feeling as he did that the Bill ought not to go on, he thought it more honourable and equitable, and just to all parties, that the Bill should not be read a second time. He therefore moved that it be read a second time that day six months.
  Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Six Months.")—(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)
  LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, he had not been able to hear all the observations addressed to their Lordships by the noble Marquess; he had, however, heard many
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  of his statements, and though he concurred with him in thinking that there were objections to certain provisions of the Bill, he did not agree with the noble Marquess in thinking that their Lordships would be acting in the interests of the public by refusing to send it before a Select Committee. In his belief the great object to be considered in a Bill of this kind was—first that the public should be better served by the starting of trains at different times; and the other was that the ruinous competition that had been carried on might be put an end to. If these three Companies could act upon such an arrangement it must turn out to be for the advantage of the public in the greater economy and better management of the line. No line could be managed to the advantage of the public which did not pay the shareholders. Now there could never be economy where two competing lines started trains in opposition to each other from the same points and to the same points. There were in this instance two lines to Dover, and these competing lines caused a great waste of expenditure for a purpose that might be equally well served by the starting of one train. By amalgamation, or
  working arrangements, traffic of this kind could be worked with greater convenience and safety to the public. Such arrangements enabled directors to diminish their working expenses; and their Lordships knew that when shareholders got a fair return for their investments in a railway they could afford to do more justice to the public. He agreed with the noble Marquess in thinking that some of the charges in the Bill were too high; but this was a matter which could be dealt with by a Committee. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would read the Bill a second time.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, I think this Bill ought to be read a second time, and in the ordinary course referred to a Select Committee. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) in moving his Amendment, admitted that he was taking a very unusual course; and he said his only justification for that course was that he thought it would be fairer to all parties to reject the Bill on the second reading. I differ altogether from the noble Marquess in that conclusion, because I believe that it would be best for all parties that the Bill should be read a second time. To the general principle of

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  amalgamation I am not opposed. Further, I think the tendency of our legislation of late years has been in that direction. I find by a Return which I recently laid on your Lordships' table, that since 1860 there have been no fewer than 163 Bills for amalgamation, and 352 for working arrangements, which Bills extend over something like 9,000 miles of railway. Therefore, the principle of this measure is not a novel one, or one founded on a principle which has not received some amount of favour at the hands of your Lordships and the other Branch of the Legislature. In many cases, I believe, the effect of such Bills is to benefit the Companies and the public. By enabling the Companies to work the line with greater economy, they enable it to serve the district and the public better—always supposing that the Bill is thoroughly sifted, with the view of seeing that the interests of the public, as well as those of the shareholders are provided for. At the same time I am bound to admit that there are many provisions in this Bill which require very attentive examination. The other day I had the honour to receive at the Board of Trade a large and influential deputation from Surrey, Sussex, and other districts of the country affected by this Bill, and the members of that deputation urged on me the necessity of the progress of the Bill being arrested; but I must add that as far as I could gather all the objections of the deputation were objections of detail and not so much against the principle of amalgamation or working arrangements amongst companies. I followed the noble Marquess in his observations, but I could not gather from anything he said reasons which, in my opinion, ought to induce your Lordships to reject the Bill on the second reading; for, after all, his objections to are objections of detail. If the principle be right that companies should be amalgamated, or working arrangements should be entered into by them, by means of which a large saving may be effected, there seems to me to be no reason why this Bill should not go before a Select Committee, who could deliberate on the points now put forward as matters of objection to its provisions. I quite agree with the noble Marquess, in the first place, that the tariff of charges is objectionable, and ought to be revised. I quite agree also that the clause concerning the termini is an objectionable one, and one that ought to be left for re-considera-
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  tion. The clause which enables towns to object to what they consider a new service, and not so favourable to them, ought, I think, to be very much extended, and to apply to the other towns on the line as well as to the four mentioned. These are points which may usefully be left to the Committee on the Bill to consider; I do not wish to be supposed to dictate to them, but merely to throw out the views which occur to me, and which might meet many of the objections of the noble Marquess. Whether the provisions of this Bill, in case it should pass the Legislature, should not be liable to revision at the expiration of a certain time, just as would happen under the Lands Clauses Act in the case of an agreement sanctioned by the Board of Trade is, also, I think, matter for consideration. In such cases, at the end of ten years, the agreement is re considered; and parties aggrieved have the opportunity of complaining and of insisting upon alterations before a new agreement is entered into. If some such clause as that were introduced into this Bill, it would meet a great many of the objections of the noble Marquess. I believe that the Committee will be fully competent to decide, upon the evidence put before them, whether the amalgamation ought to be effected or not; and, in my opinion, the evidence will be laid before them far more clearly than it would be possible to lay the facts before your Lordships in a mere statement in this; House. I therefore hope your Lordships will consent to give the Bill a second reading, and allow it to go before a Committee in the usual manner.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, ha was glad that this question of amalgamation had been raised not in Committee but in the Whole House; and he must express both his great satisfaction at the tone of the present debate, and his regret that the Legislature had not earlier laid down more intelligible principles for the guidance of its Committees in a matter of such great importance. Up to the present moment it was quite uncertain, and depended upon the constitution of any given Committee, whether the fact of a railway coining before them as a competitive line, formed a recommendation or an objection in the eye of the Legislature. He could not help feeling that both Houses of Parliament had to a certain extent neglected their duty, and had been in the habit of "shuffling off," if he might say so, upon Committees of their own body the decision of

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  questions of principle upon which it would have been their duty, and would have been much to the advantage of the country at large, had they expressed some definite and clear opinion for the guidance of their Committees, since for want of such guidance the decisions of Committees, though composed of most conscientious, intelligent, and painstaking Members, had been in the highest degree incongruous and conflicting. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) objected to the principle of amalgamation—that was to say, the suppression of competition between railways through a large tract of country. But, for his own part, he believed that we were only now arriving by means of amalgamation at the reasonable principle which ought to have guided railway legislation from the commencement. As he had ventured to state in Parliament and elsewhere, more than twenty years ago, in the case of gas and water supply, and of railways, the companies undertook a duty which could not be economically or advantageously carried on upon any principle but that of a monopoly—that was to say, employing one capital, instead of half a dozen, to do the work for which capital was required; the public interest being protected by very stringent regulations enforcing adequate service and limiting the charges to a reasonable amount. Till very recently the whole of our legislation on this subject was of the most haphazard character, and hundreds of millions of money had been squandered in needless contests. It was therefore satisfactory to find an increasing tendency to recognize the principle of amalgamation and of monopoly under certain circumstances. But while he expressed his satisfaction at the gradual adoption of the principle of amalgamation, he must admit that the noble Marquess had rendered great service in calling attention to the impudent provisions brought forward by these railway companies, and proposed to be imposed upon the public to compensate them for the money which they had squandered in the most improvident and ruinous contests. Much of this, no doubt, was due to the neglect of their duty by the Legislature, which had led to so many of such contests; but he did not think the public ought ever to be called upon to pay, either in the shape of increased passenger or traffic charges, for wasteful expenditure upon foolish decoration or upon branches, or for that jobbery or positive fraud which
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  had recently been detected in the accounts of some railway companies. He agreed with an admirable remark made by a noble Lord, formerly President of the Board of Trade, on a former occasion—that this power to impose at will additional charges on traffic was equivalent to the imposition of heavy import and export duties, which were liable most injuriously to affect our trade and manufactures in their present severe competition with the various nations of the world, and were none the less annoying to the payers of them because the proceeds went not into the Imperial Treasury, but into the pockets of some grasping company. He quite agreed with what had been said as to the helplessness of the public in matters of this kind. Though the whole public body might be deeply interested in particular clauses of a Railway Bill, it did not affect any one individual so severely as to make it worth his while to undergo what he himself knew from sad experience to be the great inconvenience and serious cost of appearing before a Parliamentary Committee; and, therefore, unless the Chairman of Committees and the Members of Committees who might be appointed did justice, not only between the two parties represented by counsel—who might be at issue upon particular points, and yet perfectly ready to join in the plunder of an unsuspecting public—but also kept in view the interests of third parties, not represented before the Committee, they would fail in their duty as guardians of the general interests. As in times past the public would be liable to be grossly maltreated and cruelly plundered by companies, to whom, under certain restrictions, it would have been much more wise to give a practical but carefully regulated monopoly. Amalgamations, if properly watched and restricted, were of advantage to the public as well as to the shareholders by introducing system, order, and economy into the working of one great branch of the public service.
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTERbelieved that working arrangements such as were contemplated by the Bill might be made very advantageous for the public. Great inconvenience had been suffered by the district through which these lines passed from the competition of the three systems of railways dealt with by this Bill. Representing, as he might be said to do, the public interest in one of the counties affected by the Bill, and also being a frequent traveller upon all three lines of

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  railway, he trusted their Lordships would not refuse a second reading to the measure. The Bill contained many matters of detail to which reasonable objections had been made, and which it was most desirable should he considered by n Select Committee; but he thought it for the public advantage that the Bill should be read the second time.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he quite concurred in the opinion that the Bill should be sent to a Select Committee, because to do otherwise would be to act contrary to the usual practice. The circumstances attending this Bill were, however, such as to increase the regret that he had often expressed that we had no efficient Railway Board in this country to report on schemes for the guidance of Parliament. The noble Earl had said that the House could most properly take these matters into its own hands: but that was impossible; each case rested on grounds peculiar to itself, totally beyond the power of Parliament adequately to weigh without the assistance of some specially qualified tribunal or some competent public officer. Proceeding to deal with the Bill, he was, as a rule, in favour of amalgamation in certain cases; such as those, for instance, which formed continuous lines out of London to distant parts of the country, either direct or by branches connected with the main line, because amalgamation in such cases resulted in greater accommodation to the public from the working and management being uniform. But the amalgamation proposed by this Bill of great lines running to the South and East was of a totally different character, distinct from anything that had ever been heard of before. It proposed to unite all the lines running from the centre of London to the South-eastern district into one great concern. Hitherto the principle of such amalgamations as had taken place had been of an exactly contrary character; and, under any circumstances, it had more than once been discovered, even by the railway companies themselves, that an amalgamation was undesirable. For instance, the Midland Company for some time approached London by the North-Western Company; then at enormous expense secured a second approach through the Great Northern; and finally found an approach of its own absolutely necessary to carry on the immense amount of traffic produced by its district. Such arrangements as those made by the Midland Company were highly approved by
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  him. The noble Duke at the head of the Board of Trade, and, therefore, in a most unfortunate position with respect to railway legislation, had spoken of this Bill as having for its object to bring certain lines into unison, so that trains should not start from London at the same time for the same places. But almost the only place of any importance at which more than one of these lines ended was Dover; and the South-Eastern ran through a totally different country from that traversed by the London, Chatham and Dover. Now, although it might happen that the amalgamation sought for would benefit the companies by reducing the number of trains they would send to Dover, yet the districts through which the two lines passed would certainly suffer if the existing competition were put an end to, and would be deprived of much of the accommodation they now enjoyed. In fact, it was evident that the chief object of those promoting the amalgamation was to get what was called "economy of working" by reducing much of the accommodation the public at present enjoyed; the Companies, in fact, desired to get more out of the public in exchange for less service. Describe it how you would, that was the real motive for promoting the Bill. It was true a considerable advantage would result from amalgamation to those who used the metropolitan lines south of the Thames in connection with the three great Southern and Eastern lines, because no doubt under an amalgamated management the various trains would be made to correspond from the different metropolitan termini; but this consideration should not be allowed to outweigh his fundamental objection to handing over a whole district to one concern. Hitherto, moreover, amalgamation schemes had generally been accompanied by a proposed reduction of fares as an earnest of good faith; this scheme, on the contrary, asked for an increase of fares, which he characterized as absolutely novel and objectionable. The promoters had also made a most extraordinary request; they had absolutely asked for power to make unlimited charges—a thing that had never been before heard of in connection with railway legislation. If the House sanctioned such a proposal, it would be opening the door to impositions on the public of the most dangerous character. He had expressed a hope that the Bill would be sent to a Select Committee; but at the same time he reserved to himself entire

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  freedom to deal with the measure when it was again before their Lordships in whatever manner lie might think the interests of the public required. There was no doubt the Bill had come from the Commons in a most objectionable shape; and the circumstances attending its passage not only through the Committee of the Lower House, but also through the House itself—he spoke of the discussions upon it—had caused him the greatest surprise. The noble Marquess who opposed the Bill had well remarked, however, that there were a great many very important points of detail that could not be efficiently considered before any Committee, because no one appeared before it thoroughly competent and empowered to conduct the opposition to the measure in all respects—there could he no organized representation of the public opinion or of the public interests. Objections, trifling in themselves but also sound in themselves, might be set up by individuals or small communities—any particular place—Sevenoaks or Canterbury—might feel that it would suffer severely if this amalgamation were carried out—but everyone knew how easy it was for the promoters to take them each objector in his turn, and defeat them separately. A larger consideration of the subject was wanted than could be got before a Committee; what was wanted was, in fact, an efficient Railway Board to deal with all schemes in a broad and comprehensive manner for the information of Parliament.
  LORD TAUNTONsaid, he entirely joined with the noble Lord, the Chairman of Committees in his desire for the establishment of a Railway Board, able to deal comprehensively and impartially with all railway schemes requiring Parliamentary sanction. He felt that the thanks of the House were due to the noble Marquess for having called attention to the subject. It was clear that railway legislation was entering on a new phase, and it was of great importance that its true character and consequences should be carefully watched. Although it could not be doubted competition was in many cases an evil, as tending in cases of foolish opposition, to raise, rather than bring down fares, and thus put a drag on the trade of the country, yet monopoly was still more to be dreaded. He thought that the Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee, and he trusted the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees and the noble Duke at the head of the Board of Trade,
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  whoso services he highly prized, would carefully watch its progress, and would be prepared to state to the House, when the Bill came back, a matured opinion as the course they would recommend for adoption. He should reserve to himself the right of opposing the Bill on its third reading, if it should appear on its coming out of Committee that its defects remained unconnected. He believed strongly in the general principle that it was much safer to intrust the discussion of private Bills to Select Committees, because, in his opinions a Select Committee was a more impartial tribunal than the House. Still, in such a case as the present he believed it to be their Lordship's duty to give to the measure on its return from the Select Committee a careful and an attentive consideration.
  EARL GREYsaid, he trusted the noble Marquis, to whom they were all indebted for bringing this subject before the House, would not, after the discussion of that evening, object to the Bill being read a second time with a view to its being referred to the Select Committee. He should, like the noble Lord (Lord Taunton), claim to himself perfect freedom of action in regard to the Bill when it came back to the House; and if he found that its objectionable features had not been removed in the Committee he should be happy to support the noble Marquis if he renewed his opposition to the measure on the third reading. Among the most objectionable of the provisions contained in the Bill was that, perhaps, relating to the raising of the fares. He could not help thinking that if a railway company proposed to adopt a certain rate of fares, and upon that proposed rate obtained permission to establish a monopoly—for such, in reality, a railway was—it should not upon any condition be afterwards permitted to raise its fares. The fact was, that at the time Parliament granted powers to a company to construct a railway, a contract was virtually entered into by the railway company to convey passengers on certain terms, and those terms could not be afterwards disregarded without a breach of the virtual contract originally entered into between the company and the public. Still less should such a proposition be listened to when it emanated from the Companies south of the Thames, because it was notorious that the difficulties and embarrassments of those companies were the result of the grossest extravagance and mismanagement—or

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  worse. He trusted, therefore, that Parliament would not in the slightest degree listen to any suggestion for permitting the Railway Companies to increase their fares. The Select Committee should also take care—in case the amalgamation was sanctioned at all—that the accommodation of the public was sufficiently provided for. The noble Lord the Chairman of Committees had very truly pointed out that, though a smaller number of trains might be sufficient for the Dover continental service, the districts through which those trains ran ought to be protected against the want of proper communication with which they were threatened. He further hoped that the amalgamation, if conceded at all, would be conceded for a limited time—that, at the end, say, of ten years at the outside, Parliament should have the opportunity of revising the whole arrangements. By some such alterations as those which he had suggested the Bill might, perhaps, be deprived of its present objectionable features. Now, he agreed in the remark that some more effectual means were required for fairly bringing the interests of the public under the consideration of the Committee. It might, perhaps, be advisable that some officer belonging to the Board of Trade, or some person especially selected to watch over the public interests, should be appointed to assist the members of the Committee with his advice; while he was also inclined to believe that in such a case as the present it might be advisable to have a stronger and a more numerous Committee than was usually appointed. He believed, too, that in order that the legislation of Parliament on railway matters should meet the real wants of the country, and provide for the service being performed with the efficiency and economy which were so necessary to the general, and more especially to the commercial, interests of the country, a special Department ought to be created, subject to the control of Parliament. He had frequently expressed an opinion that what they really required was a well-constituted Department, composed of men of ability and knowledge, who should sit during the whole year—or, at all events, during the time the Law Courts were sitting—so as not to crowd the whole of their business into a few months, and transact it under a pressure of time which, while it greatly added to the expense incurred, at the same time injured the efficiency of the work they had to perform; and it should be the
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  duty of this Department to report on the matters which came under their consideration, and that their Reports should be submitted to Parliament for them to deal with. They ought, moreover, to be guided by some distinct and intelligible principle, instead of, as at present, not adhering to the same policy for two years in succession; because the want of uniformity which wag now so apparent led to the imposition of an enormous charge upon the public, while it also contributed in no small degree to the present unsatisfactory state of affairs.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that as his object would be attained by the full examination which the Bill would have in the Select Committee, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn; then the original Motion was agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

RELIEF OF THE POOR.

  ADDRESS FOR A ROYAL COMMISSION.
  THE MARQUESS TOWNSHENDrose to move That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to request that She will be graciously pleased to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the Operation and Administration of the Laws for the Relief of the Poor in England and Wales. The noble Marquess, who was imperfectly heard, was understood to say it appeared to him imperatively necessary that no further time should be allowed to elapse till an inquiry took place into the administration of the law relating to the relief of the poor, which he could not but consider as a scandal and disgrace to the country, and which had produced among the people a painful feeling of discontent. The subject would require a prolonged investigation, which could not be given to it by Members of the Legislature during the Session; but which could be devoted to it by them during the Recess, aided by gentlemen best fitted for such an inquiry. It was only necessary to call their Lordships' attention to the cases which had been brought forward in the public Press to show that unless something were done the gravest censure would justly be attributed to the administration of the laws relating to the relief of the poor. But in his censure of the system

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  in general, and in some degree of those who had the administration of relief, he rejoiced that he was not obliged to point out any defect, or want of skill, or efficiency on the part of the noble Lord who now presided over the Department. It was the system itself which was condemned by; the public at large. In speaking of the numerous scandals which had been made public it was impossible to say what was the number that still remained unknown. When it was considered that workhouses were literally prisons, though those confined had been guilty of no fault but poverty, the importance of classification among the inmates must be at once apparent. Yet in this respect how little had been done. Another point to which he must call attention was the system of unpaid nurses in workhouses, and who were in many cases totally unfit for their duties. Very little had been done to improve the condition of things in this respect. It was also most important that the system pursued with reference to the appointment of medical officers should be altered. There were cases which had appeared in the public papers, where it had been shown that the officers who had discharged their duty in the most able manner had been hunted out of their places because they had ventured to perform their duties in a proper and humane spirit. In connection with the internal economy of workhouses, it was impossible not also to allude to the state of the casual wards in the provinces. He admitted that considerable improvements had been effected in this respect, but much remained to be accomplished. It was well known that in some instances masters of workhouses had been appointed without due regard to qualification, and there were cases in which they had been appointed, notwithstanding a previous dismissal from office. Again, attention should be directed to the miserable pittance doled out to paupers advanced in years and not admitted into the houses—it was not enough to keep body and soul together. He entirely agreed with a very able article which had recently appeared in the leading journal on this subject, in which many evils of the present system were traced to the defective constitution of the Boards of Guardians. It would be presumption in him to endeavour to point out the proper remedies for the evils of the present system; but he hoped their Lordships would give full consideration to so important a subject, and that the imperfections of the advocate
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  would not damage the cause he had undertaken. He would not attempt to point out the remedies that were required. That he would leave to noble Lords who were much more competent than himself; and he hoped their Lordships would therefore consent to an Address for a Royal Commission who might inquire into the subject during the Recess, and report to the House at the meeting of Parliament.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to request that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the Operation and Administration of the Laws for the Relief of the Poor in England and Wales.—(The Marquess Townshend. )
  THE EARL OF DEVONsaid, it was not from any want of respect for the noble Marquess, nor from any failure to appreciate the purity of his motives, that he felt bound to oppose the Motion; but he did so on the broad ground that the noble Marquess had failed to make out any sufficient ground for the presentation of an Address to Her Majesty. The whole subject connected with the details of the administration of the Poor Law had, during the past few years, been investigated by Committees of both Houses of Parliament, and had undergone careful and thorough examination; and with regard to any individual case of grievance or oppression, he could only say that it had always been the object and the desire of the Poor Law Board, and that it was still, to cause the fullest inquiry to be made into it whenever it was brought under their notice. There was at all times the greatest desire to give the fullest information to their Lordships upon every point connected with the working of the Poor Laws, and any information in the possession of the Department would be freely placed at the disposal of the noble Marquess. The noble Marquess had spoken of twenty cases of death from starvation within a limited period; but if his noble Friend could point to one case of that character in which due and proper inquiry had not been made, no time should be lost in making it. While he differed from the noble Marquess as to the necessity for the appointment of a Commission, he did not differ upon certain important principles. One was that the law should be administered economically, in such a way as to relieve real destitution, and yet to prevent the money of the ratepayers from being paid to those who did not deserve it; and this was the principle which the Department would always endeavour to enforce.

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  He fully agreed with the noble Marquess as to the necessity for the employment of paid nurses in the hospitals and infirmaries. This was a point to which the Board had given anxious attention; the Bill before the House would give the Guardians increased power to appoint such officers, and it would be the constant endeavour of the Board to enforce the carrying out of the measure when it was passed. He enter tained the same sense of the importance of classification as the noble Marquess did. The Board had used every exertion in this respect, and had lost no opportunity of improving and introducing it wherever they could; and he believed that if the noble Marquess would inspect the various metropolitan workhouses, he would find that it had already been carried out to a considerable extent. The inspectors had given great attention to the subject of vagrant wards in the metropolis; and but yesterday, in company with the Secretary of the Board, and on the invitation of the guardians of Marylebone, he visited the new vagrant wards which they had provided, which seemed to furnish all that could be desired in the way of ventilation, cleanliness, and separate accommodation, and which were but a sample of what was being done in various parts of the metropolis. Repeating his readiness to give his noble Friend the fullest information in reply to any question he might put, he concluded by urging that no necessity had been shown for the appointment of a Commission.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

ARMY CHAPLAINS BILL—(No. 116.)
(The Earl of Longford. )
ARMY CHAPLAINS BILL—(No. 116.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Adjourned Debate on Motion "That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee."—(The Earl of Longford. )
  Debate resumed.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, that looking at what occurred on Thursday evening, and also at the Amendments to be moved in Committee of which Notice had been given by the right rev. Prelate who presided over the see of Gloucester and Bristol, the Government had considered the question with the view of seeing how far they were able to meet
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  the wishes expressed on Thursday evening, and embodied in the Amendments. Questions were then raised as to two points—first, as to the term "Royal peculiars" and the arrangement by which it was proposed to exempt army chaplains, and the chapels in which they officiated, from the interference of the parochial incumbents; and, second, the question whether army chaplains should be subjected to the superintendence of the Bishop of the diocese in which the encampment was placed, or whether they should be subjected, as the Government proposed, to a Bishop or Archbishop appointed by the Government. With regard to the first point, objection had been taken to the creation of additional Royal peculiars, and considering that they had been for some time abolished, and that while they were in existence they had created a good deal of confusion, it was considered desirable not to revive them, and the Government, therefore, adopted the proposal of the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol) to substitute the term "extra-parochial district." The effect of this substitution throughout the Bill would be to place army chaplains serving in these extra-parochial districts under the Bishop of the diocese in which they are situate; but the Government could not assent to this arrangement. The position of an army chaplain was very different from that of a curate of the Church of England. The army chaplain had to minister to the soldiers in his charge, and he had also to act in subordination to the commanding officer, who also was bound to submit to his superiors. The army chaplain was also liable to be removed frequently from place to place, and from the jurisdiction of one commanding officer to that of another; and this involved his removal from one diocese to another; and it would be inconvenient with regard to many points of administrative detail if the accident of his being placed in any particular district necessarily and ipso facto subjected him to the episcopal superintendence of the Bishop presiding over that diocese. It was to be remembered that army chaplains had never been subject to any episcopal superintendence, and it was perhaps most desirable that they should be brought under such control, due regard being had to the proper exercise of their spiritual functions; but at the same time it would be a novel expedient if persons be peculiarly and abnormally situated as

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  army chaplains were to be subjected necessarily to the Bishop of the diocese in which their duties placed them. On the other hand, in cases where a number of army chaplains were congregated together in a camp it might be desirable that the Bishop of the diocese should not be necessarily deprived of the superintendence over them. He might exercise his jurisdiction with great benefit in such cases. But then some latitude should be allowed to the Crown, which ought to have a discretionary power to appoint, under exceptional circumstances, another Bishop to superintend these extra-parochial places. As, therefore, it was not expedient, necessarily, to put these places under the jurisdiction of the Bishops of the dioceses in which they were situate, and as on the other hand it might be desirable to do so in certain cases, the Government proposed so to modify the Bill as to enable Her Majesty in Council from time to time to appoint an Archbishop or a Bishop of the Established Church to exercise episcopal jurisdiction over these extra - parochial places. He had not had time to embody in formal Amendments these views, which he believed were approved by the right rev. Prelates, and therefore he proposed that they should let the Bill pass through Committee pro formâ, after which it could be re-printed and re-committed on a subsequent day.
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he had no objection to offer to the change of the phrase "Royal peculiar" into "extra-parochial place," if Her Majesty's Government were of opinion that the alteration would not be productive of inconvenience. He thought, however, it would be inexpedient to place these extra-parochial places generally under the control of the Bishops in whose dioceses they were respectively situated; and if this were done under peculiar circumstances, he thought the Crown ought to reserve to itself full power of revoking any Order in Council that might be made on the subject.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, the Amendments proposed by the Government removed the objection which he had raised last night. In some cases the Bishop of the diocese might not be—in consequence of extreme age, for example—a fit and proper person to exercise superintendence over these places; and, therefore, there could be no objection to the Crown giving the jurisdiction to another Bishop under such exceptional circumstances.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly; Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended, (No. 146.)

  FINE ARTS COPYRIGHT CONSOLIDATION AND AENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for consolidating and amending the Law of Copyright in Works of Fine Art—Was presented by The Lord WESTBURY; read 1a (No. 145.)
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.