HL Deb 25 November 1867 vol 190 cc153-7
EARL GRANVILLE

I am extremely glad to see my noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) in his place again, and particularly as his presence induces me to preface, perhaps, a little more fully than I should do to any other person, the Question I am about to ask him. I hope I am not transgressing the recommendation made by the Committee of last year, that no Question should be put without public notice having previously been given upon the Paper. I have no wish whatever, in asking for explanations concerning the Abyssinian Papers, to raise any debate upon the important question to which those papers relate, or even upon the preliminary question as to the reasons—apart from the celebrated "month of August" argument—why we should not have been asked three months ago to do what is now desired of us. What I contend is that some little information should be given, which I think is wanted, and which ought to be given with as little delay as possible. Your Lordships may perhaps think that the 500 pages presented last week are sufficient to satisfy any moderate appetite. Certainly, at first sight, they appear to include every scrap of paper which can be found in the India Office. I think it is even doubtful whether it was absolutely necessary to present to Parliament all the papers contained in the blue book. There is one correspondence I read which comprehends a letter from the Medical Department to the War Office and from the War Office to the India Office, an answer from the India Office to the War Office, and a rejoinder from the India Office to the War Office; all exclusively turning upon one point—whether a certain surgeon should take out his valet—an important question, which seems only to have been decided by an appeal to the Horse Guards, the gracious interposition of the Commander-in-Chief, and the amiable acquiescence of the surgeon himself. There is a very long statement interesting to genealogists, first given in extenso and then in abstract, of the claims of Sir Bridgtower, of No. 18, Via di Tritone, at Rome, to the throne of Abyssinia. It was a relief to me, after being kept in suspense for several pages, to find that the Secretary of State had decided not to support these claims by force of arms. This, however, must be admitted on behalf of the Government; it may be tiresome for one to read the offers of personal service and letters describing goods for sale; it may be dry to read directions as to the forms of vouchers and the marks on Government stores; it may seem a little ridiculous for the Executive to inform the Imperial Parliament that there will be bell-ropes, blacking, and a mangle for the expedition; but it is right that the Government should give evidence of their anxious endeavours to provide for the wants of the soldiers who are to be employed on this arduous expedition. I do not suspect them of having acted on the maxim of the old Parliamentary tactician—"The greater the blue book, the less likely it is to be read," nor do I complain of their giving us any information which may appear superfluous; but I wish to get that which is necessary and of the greatest importance. Your Lordships will remember that on Tuesday last the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) answered a Question which, however, had not been put in this House, as to the incongruity of the declarations made by Lord Stanley on the 26th of July, and the announcement made in the Queen's Speech on the prorogation of Parliament on the 21st of August. The noble Earl recapitulated a portion of the speech of Lord Stanley, who, among other things, spoke of the difficulties of the expedition, and said— An expedition to rescue the captives must in any case be expensive; that it must inevitably be attended with heavy loss of life, by climate if not by military operations; that it was possible that it might even lead to a massacre of the prisoners, and that, for aught we knew, it might be wholly unnecessary, since their detention being apparently a pure act of caprice, the same caprice might at any moment lead to their being again released, without effort on our part."—[3 Hansard, clxxxix. 250.] Later on the Foreign Secretary said— To obtain the release of these men by force is not an easy matter. … It would be madness to throw a British army into an unknown country, in a tropical climate, far from the sea, very far from its reserves and its supplies, without a full previous investigation as to the means of moving, feeding, and keeping them in health. That inquiry we look upon as an indispensable preliminary. … I do not think we should be called upon even now to give any pledge on the part of the Government as to an expedition, unless it is found to be practicable with only a reasonable expenditure of men and means."—[3 Hansard, clxxxix. 251–2.] The noble Earl explained with reference to this, that such having been the doubts of Her Majesty's Government on the 26th of July, on the 13th of August information arrived which resolved those doubts, which opened to Ministers a reasonable prospect of success, and which induced them on the 19th to decide upon warlike measures, and to announce them on the 21st to a prorogued Parliament. Now, my Lords, I have carefully read the blue book, and I find no trace of such information. I find that on the 13th Her Majesty's Government received telegrams announcing what must have been pretty well anticipated, that the Indian Government could, if required, furnish in four months a well-equipped force of 12,000 men; but I find absolutely nothing which could have given the Government on the 13th of August that information which Lord Stanley so clearly stated only three or four weeks before was abso- lutely necessary as to the physical and moral state of Abyssinia and its inhabitants. I see the same complaint is urged in The Times newspaper of this morning, and a suggestion is made of the bare possibility of the information referred to by the noble Earl being Sir Henry Durand's Memorandum. This, however, cannot be, as the document referred to was not received until September. The only information which can by any possibility be regarded as that to which the noble Earl referred, unless we have been entirely kept in the dark, is contained in some correspondence between the War Office and the Foreign Office set forth in pages 29 and 58 of the blue book. The Under Secretary for War writes to the Secretary of State for India as follows:— I am directed by Sir John Pakington to forward herewith a copy of a description of different routes in Abyssinia which has been compiled in the Topographical and Statistical Department of this office. These descriptions have been taken from the journies of travellers, and have been confined, in the first instance, to such as would give a general idea of the different lines of approach into the country which have been advocated. The letter concludes with suggestions regarding other information which might be obtained if desired. On page 58 we have the reply from the War Office as follows:— I am directed by Sir John Pakington to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 20th instant, and, with reference to the suggestion contained in it, that copies of the 'Pamphlet on Routes in Abyssinia' may be of great use to the India Office at this moment, I am to state, for Lord Stanley's information, that copies have been already forwarded to that office. I can hardly believe that this is the information referred to; but it is clear that the Memorandum or pamphlet, whether we have looked for it in vain or not, is evidently highly thought of at the War Office and the Foreign Office. It would be read with avidity by Members of both Houses, as it probably bears exactly upon the points upon which we are most anxious to be informed. If satisfactory, nothing would give Parliament more readiness to acquiesce cheerfully in the demands of Her Majesty's Government. It is clear that if omitted it must have been from mere inadvertence on the part of those compiling the papers. I have therefore only to ask the noble Earl whether there is any objection to have this valuable Memorandum distributed to the Members of your Lordships' House?

THE EARL OF DERBY

I think the noble Earl who has just sat down (Earl Granville) was a Member of the Committee of last year which recommended that Questions likely to give rise to discussion should not be raised in this House without notice; and the only notice the noble Earl has given is contained in a note to the Earl of Malmesbury, who, however, is unable to attend here this evening. For my own part, reading the notice given by the noble Earl to my noble Friend, I do not think it was one indicating an intention to enter into the merits of the Abyssinian Expedition, or the discrepancies which the noble Earl thinks he has found between the statement made by my noble Relative on the 26th July and the subsequent determination of the Government. The noble Earl, in his note to Lord Malmesbury, merely asked him to be present this evening in the House, in order that he might have an opportunity of asking him to lay on the table the pamphlet containing a description of the routes in Abyssinia. Lord Malmesbury sent the note to me, and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that there will be no difficulty as to the production of the document referred to, and that it will be laid on the table at the earliest possible moment. The noble Earl will excuse me if I now decline to enter into any discussion, when I asssure him that we shall be able to give full explanation at a proper time, and that the paper he asks for shall be laid on the table at the earliest possible moment.

EARL GRANVILLE

The recommendation of the Committee of last year was that Questions should not be put without notice, which were likely to lead to debate. It is clear that the Question I have put has not led to debate; I do not think it is likely to lead to debate; I think the information asked for is worth having, and the sooner we can have it the better.

THE EARL OF DERBY

The noble Earl will forgive me for reminding him that he opened his observations with the remark that my presence induced him to enter into a fuller explanation of the Question he proposed to raise than he had intended; and it is evident that he came down fully prepared with a number of papers to back his case. Seeing me here, in fact, he could not resist the temptation of putting forward a charge against the Government.