COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 22 March 1867)

THE EARL OF CARNARVON
expressed his satisfaction at finding the Bill before their Lordships' House. The position of the metropolitan workhouses last year was absolutely discreditable and disgraceful; but he now hoped in twelve months' time to see a radical change, and the entire removal of those evils which at present existed. He congratulated his right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board upon the ability he had shown in dealing with this question; and he thought their best thanks were due to those inde- 389 pendent gentlemen who last year used their best endeavours to bring the condition of the London workhouses to light; and to show the necessity for some radical change in their management. They no doubt felt great satisfaction at the result of their labours. About this time last year he urged upon the right hon. Gentleman who was then the President of the Poor Law Board (Mr. Villiers) the adoption of certain rules as the proper basis of a measure on this subject, those rules having been recommended by the highest medical and surgical authorities in the metropolis. The right hon. Gentleman frankly admitted the necessity of them; and he was glad to find that they had, without exception, been embodied in this Bill by his successor. There were two other matters of an administrative character which he pointed out at the same time—namely, that the whole of the sick poor should be placed upon the common fund; and that a central representative Board should be created in London for the administration of the Poor Law. In those respects the right hon. Gentleman had not quite carried out the principles which he had recommended. Under the Bill, one-third of the indoor poor and the whole of the outdoor poor, with respect to the dispensation of medicines, would be made a common charge. This was a valuable step in the direction he desired, and he understood that his right hon. Friend contemplated further alterations in the administrative system, and possibly looked forward to a Central Board armed with still larger powers than those given in the Bill. He cordially approved the measure, and rejoiced to find that it had now passed through nearly all its stages.

§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
said, he also wished to state that he looked upon the measure as most beneficial, and he believed he might say that it had been so received by the country. It was read the other night paragraph by paragraph at a large meeting of working men, and every paragraph was received with the utmost satisfaction. There were, however, one or two points to which he thought it necessary to direct attention. The Bill proposed to deal with the insane hitherto confined in workhouses on an entirely new footing. It was intended to erect large edifices of the nature of branch workhouses for the reception of the sick and insane poor, some of those buildings being capable of accommodating as many as 500 patients. 390 It was necessary, therefore, to consider what was the state of the law as to placing and detention of lunatic paupers in such places. It had been decided that there was no power under the statute law to detain any one in a workhouse against his will, and difficulties sometimes arose from such inmates wishing to leave, and the masters endeavouring to detain them. Now that this transfer was to be made to large asylums it was absolutely necessary that a law should be defined—first, as to what persons were to be confined in the new buildings, as also the same protection against the detention of sane persons which was provided in the case of county asylums. The clause described those who were to be shut up in those asylums in the general term "insane," but cases of insanity were very variable, and he thought that some attention should be paid to that point. Again, the mixing up under the old system of insane with sane paupers gave the protection to the former, in case of wrong or injury done to them, of the testimony of reliable witnesses, whereas this proposal would deprive them of that security. He remembered a prosecution for ill-using a lunatic in which, though the testimony of his companions was very clear and decided, it was naturally received with caution, and the accused was consequently acquitted. He knew that the Poor Law Board were empowered to make stringent regulations; but he feared that unless the law respecting the admission of these patients were clearly laid down, the protection and treatment of lunatics might be unfavourably affected.

§ THE EARL OF DEVON
was gratified to find that the Bill, as a whole, had the approval of the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury), whose zeal and interest in the well-being of the poor were so well known. With regard to the clauses relating to lunatics, he wished to point out, without expressing an opinion upon the special points to which the noble Earl referred, that the object of the Bill, so far as it went, was to ameliorate the condition of the insane poor. He thought that the condition of the insane poor would be greatly improved by their being placed in a separate asylum. The noble Earl had referred to the want of protection of the insane poor in these asylums; but he would see that the 30th clause authorized the Lunacy Commissioners to appoint one of their officers a mem- 391 ber of the board of management, and by that means they would be fully cognizant of the state of the poor in the asylum. The observations of his noble Friend would receive the careful consideration of the Department.