Lords Sitting of 16 July 1867

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Prorogation of Parliament* (228); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements* (229); Representation of the People (227).
Committee—Merchant Shipping* (219); Patriotic Fund* (201).
Report—Offices and Oaths* (218); Inclosure (No. 2)* (65).
Third Reading—Transubstantiation, &c. Declaration Abolition (101); Trusts (Scotland)* (195), and passed.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL—(No. 227.)—(The Earl of Derby.)

  FIRST READING.
  Bill read 1a; to be printed. (No. 227).
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I propose to fix the second reading for Monday next, and if the debate should terminate and the Bill be read a second time on that day, I should wish to appoint Friday for the Committee. Tour Lordships, I am sure, would desire at this period of the Session that the Bill should be pro-
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  ceeded with without unnecessary delay. If the debate does not terminate on Monday, and if your Lordships are desirous that further time should be given, I shall be prepared to fix the Committee for the following Monday.
  EARL GREY: I think it would be much more convenient if the Committee were fixed at once for Monday week; for I have reason to believe that the debate on the second reading will be by no means so short as the noble Earl seems to suppose. I do not intend to oppose the second reading, nor have I heard that any Member of your Lordships' House intends to do so; but it is my intention before the Bill is read a second time to move a Resolution, the purport of which will be to express the opinion of the House to show that the Bill requires considerable amendment. I cannot now give the precise words of this Resolution, but I have reason to believe that it will meet with considerable support. At all events, I am persuaded that the whole principle of a Bill of such importance ought to be discussed on the second reading, in order that we may be properly prepared to consider its details in Committee. It is necessary, moreover, that there should be some interval between the second reading and the Committee, because, until the opinion of the House has been indicated to a certain extent by the proceedings on the second reading, it is impossible for those who object to some of the provisions of the Bill to decide upon what Amendments they will propose. It is desirable that the House should not be in any uncertainty as to the date of the Committee, and I therefore trust the noble Earl will acquiesce in the propriety of at once fixing Monday week.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: I can assure the noble Earl that I have not the slightest desire unduly to hasten the progress of the Bill, and I have already said that if the debate on the second reading should not terminate on Monday, I shall be ready, if it is thought more convenient, to defer the Committee till the following Monday. At present it would not be regular to do more than fix the second reading, but I can assure the noble Earl that I shall be glad to meet the general wish of your Lordships as to the time for taking the next stage.
  Bill ordered to be read 2a on Monday next.

TRANSUBSTANTIATION, &c., DECLARATION ABOLITION BILL—(No. 101.)
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
TRANSUBSTANTIATION, &c., DECLARATION ABOLITION BILL—(No. 101.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, that he had something more to say than "Not-Content" to the third reading. From a sense of duty, he felt bound to call attention to the way in which the reports were given by those who were engaged to do so. Their Lordships would remember several points to which he alluded the last time this Bill was under consideration, not one of which was given in the newspaper reports. There was one point in particular, which referred to the isolated position in which the Sovereign would be placed by the operation of the Bill, which it was material should appear, but which had been altogether omitted. He begged to observe in the outset, that many of their Lordships might believe that the reports of what passed in the House were generally pretty faithfully given by those who were appointed to record them. Nothing could be more fallacious than such an opinion. He had often read and heard, without saying a word to contradict it, that it was very extraordinary that the debates in Parliament were generally so accurately reported. It was said that there was such a diversity of speakers, and the difficulty of unravelling points upon which the speakers themselves were not clear was so great, that the manner in which the task of the reporter was executed was deserving of praise. He was well aware that many of the gentlemen filling the office of editor of newspapers were men of the highest attainments in literature, and admirably discharged the duties of their sphere. But there was a Jesuitical treachery in action in the reporters' gallery, with a view to the falsification of the reports. He had a voice which could be heard in every part of the House; he knew what he said was plain enough, and that he did say that the effect of the Bill would be to create a most invidious and insulting isolation as regarded the Sovereign. Not one single syllable which he said upon that point was given in any newspaper which he read. He would take, by way of example, The Times news-
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  paper, which was supposed to give a faithful report of their proceedings. He know it was a most admirably conducted journal in many respects, but not a syllable of what he had said on the point to which he alluded had been given in The Times. There was another subject also to which he referred—namely, a sermon which had been preached in one of the Roman Catholic chapels in Dublin, in which the audience were desired by the preacher to pray especially to the Virgin Mary, and to no one else, for this reason, that the Virgin Mary had been staunch to her Son in His sufferings upon the cross when His Father deserted Him, as was proved, said the preacher, by His having complained of the desertion. Now that opprobrious blasphemy had been enunciated in Dublin, and he adduced it as a proof of the soundness of the declaration which the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) was anxious to do away with. Not a single word of that was given in The Times newspaper or any other newspaper he had seen. To show how base and how cowardly the proceeding was, he would state that every iota of the legal argument which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in the execution of his duty delivered was given seriatim. So the reporters heard every word of that argument, and gave all the points, but not a word of any of the points to which he himself had called attention. Indeed, the reporter wound up with this observation—"The noble Marquess asked what was to become of his Motion?" And then was added, "Laughter," Now there was in "another place" a squad of persons told off to do the laughter, which was to carry weight with the public as an argument, and to put honest men, acting in the discharge of their duty, in a contemptible position. Such was the political animus which was shown in the reports of their Lordships' proceedings. It was almost a reproach to their Lordships that one of their number should have to adduce instances of this foul play, and that their Lordships should not devise some other method of having their debates reported. He had frequently, in former Sessions, mentioned to the Chairman of Committees instances of foul play on the part of those reporters, and his noble Friend's answer was that the reports were, all things considered, wonderfully well given. Well, he (the Marquess of Westmeath) admitted that; but he maintained, nevertheless, that there was a system carried or, by the

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  Jesuits, and by the Ultramontane party, with the view of gaining people over to their faith, the object of which was to give false impressions of facts, incidents, and individuals to the public; and he thought that a person, feeling as he did, was justified in calling attention to the matter. He knew the machinery of Jesuitism; he knew the Ultramontane party, and what they were about; he had always denounced them, and would continue to denounce them. He cared not for their enmity, he despised their praise, and he would continue to do so. He had now proved his charge, and it was for their Lordships to consider whether something should not be done to put an end to the detestable and infernal system which he had brought under their notice.
  On Question? Resolved in the Affirmative; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL (No. 5.) BILL—(No. 166.)
(The Earl of Belmore.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL (No. 5.) BILL—(No. 166.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee read.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that this Bill repealed in the Malvern Local Improvement Act of 1858 certain clauses inserted for his protection, without any notice given to himself. Now, he thought that persons whose rights were so affected should have full notice of the manner in which it was proposed to deal with their property. He should probably be told that there was a saving clause at the end of the Provisional Order, but he doubted whether that would be effectual; and he should move the postponement of the Bill for a fortnight, in order that an opportunity might be afforded to owners of the property affected to consider what stops they ought to take.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that this measure passed through the House of Commons as an unopposed Bill; but of course if the noble Earl thought that his rights were injuriously affected, he had a right to present a Petition and be heard by counsel against the Bill.
  LORD REDESDALEsuggested that as the Bill in that case must go before a Select Committee, the best course would be to discharge the Order and leave no day fixed for the consideration of the Bill.
  Order discharged.

CONSTABULARY (IRELAND)—CASE OF SUB-CONSTABLE JENNINGS.

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM moved—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that there be laid on the Table of this House:

  1. Copy of the Informations taken by the Justices of the Peace for the County of Leitrim against Sub-Constable Richard Jennings, stationed at Garvagh in the Barony of Mohill, for Perjury and for endeavouring to dissuade Hugh M'Castin from giving Evidence on the Trial of one Francis Cannon charged with an indictable Misdemeanor, and by soliciting him to leave the Country until his Trial would be over: Also,

  2. Copy of the Report made to Her Majesty's Government; together with the Minutes of the Evidence given at the Trial of the above-mentioned Francis Cannon at the late Spring Assizes for the County of Leitrim; And also,

  3. Copy of the Opinion of Her Majesty's Law Officers in Ireland upon the above Documents; together with such other Papers as Her Majesty's Government may think proper to lay upon the Table of this House, exhibiting the Reason why Her Majesty's Government do not take further Proceedings against the said Sub-Constable Jennings for the Crimes imputed to him.—(The Lord Clements.)

  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he knew nothing of the facts of the case, but he would have inquiry made into it, and if the Papers could be properly produced, he should be ready to lay them on the table. It was, however, contrary to all practice to produce an Opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown. He would, if possible, produce all the information without such Opinion.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

  PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to simplify the Forms of Prorogation during the Recess of Parliament—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 228.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.