Lords Sitting of 3 December 1867

MINUTES.
Took the Oath—The Lord Elphinstone.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Income Tax*; Consolidated Fund (£2,000,000)*; Totnes, &c. Writs* (7).
Second Reading—Sales of Reversions (5); Metropolitan Streets Act (1867) Amendment [8].

GAMBLING IN HONG KONG AND HELIGOLAND.—QUESTION.
LORD TAUNTONsaid, he wished to ask two Questions deeply affecting the honour and character of this country. He was induced to do so, because he understood that an ordinance had come home from Hong Kong licensing some gambling houses in the colony. At the time that he held the seals of the Colonial Office a similar ordinance came home, and he felt it his duty to recommend that the sanction of the Crown should not be given. It was reported in the papers that the sanction of the Crown had been given in the present instance; but he had since received information which led him to doubt that such was the case, and the noble Duke (the Duke of Buckingham) probably would have no objection to give their Lordships accurate information upon the subject. At a place nearer home there was reason to believe that a notorious public gambling - house had also been established. Heligoland during the summer was very much resorted to for purposes of health and bathing, especially by the citizens of Hamburg; and these complained that their young men, belonging principally to mercantile houses, were there attracted to the gaming table, to the serious injury of their interests and prospects. It certainly was not creditable to this country that a gambling-house should exist under-British protection so close to our own shores. He remembered that when at the Colonial Office he had sent out peremptory instructions to put an end to the system, and he now heard with some surprise that it was still in existence. He wished to ask the noble Duke, Whether he was prepared to lay upon the table any Papers showing what the facts in these two cases really were?
THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMsaid, it was quite true that both at Heligoland and
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Hong Kong gambling-houses existed, and that their existence was an evil to those colonies, and, to some extent, an imputation on our administration. They were no doubt a very great evil, which ought to be put an end to at the earliest possible opportunity. With regard to Heligoland, there was only one gambling-house, but the last renewal of the lease under which the property was held, granted in 1855, would not expire until January, 1871. He had been in communication with the authorities of the Island, and also with the Governor, as to whether the practice could be discontinued earlier; but it was very doubtful whether, under the peculiar arrangements of the colony, that would be possible. Certain funds belonging to the orphans of the Island had really no other security than the income derived from this property, let and used as a gambling-house. Peremptory instructions, however, had been given to the Governor to see that during the current year, and as far as necessary during the remainder of the lease, the revenue received should be applied to no other purpose than to the reduction of the debt charged upon this property, so as to facilitate the abolition, at the earliest moment, of what really might be called one of the institutions of the Island. There would be no objection to lay on the table a copy of the lease, if one existed in this country; and, if not, one could be applied for. With regard to Hong Kong, it was quite true that an ordinance was sent home from the colony in 1866, which provided for the general improvement and for the maintenance of order and cleanliness in the colony. This ordinance contained a clause to the following effect:—
"And whereas the evils of gambling in the colony are found to be on the increase, notwithstanding the application of the penal laws in force for their prevention, and it is expedient to devise and adopt further measures for the gradual control and ultimate suppression thereof; be it therefore enacted that it shall be lawful for the Governor in Council from time to time to frame and pass such rules, regulations, and conditions as may be deemed expedient for the total suppression, or in the meanwhile for the better limitation and control of gambling in this colony, with power from time to time to alter and amend such rules and regulations or repeal the same or any part thereof."
A copy of that ordinance arrived in this country in the latter part of the year 1866, and came under the notice of the noble Earl who was then at the head of the Colonial Office (the Earl of Carnarvon),

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and, after some considerable investigation, the noble Earl came to the conclusion which was expressed in his despatch to the Governor of Hong Kong, to the following effect:—
"Looking to the special circumstances and the state of society to be found in the Chinese community at Hong Kong, I am led to the conclusion that the evils arising from this apparently irrepressible vice require and justify exceptional treatment."
That despatch of the noble Earl was dated in November of last year. On receiving it the Governor of Hong Kong remonstrated against the limitation proposed, and argued very strongly in favour of a practice which appeared to have been very common in some of the Chinese cities—namely, that of granting Government licences to gambling-houses, not with the view of putting them down, but with the object of obtaining a large revenue from them, and of insuring that no other such houses should be opened. This remonstrance from the Governor came into his (the Duke of Buckingham's) hands almost immediately after he had undertaken the duties of head of the Colonial Office, and he at once proceeded to review the circumstances which had induced the Earl of Carnarvon to give the instructions objected to by the Governor. In the course of his investigations he found that the view taken by the Governor had frequently been put forward by the authorities of Hong Kong. At the time when Lord Stanley and his noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) were at the Colonial Office a long correspondence took place upon this subject, in which it was distinctly announced that Her Majesty's Government could not and would not sanction the raising of revenue from such a source. He further found that under the system hitherto adopted by the police the number of gambling-houses and of those frequenting them had considerably increased instead of diminishing, and that the Government of the colony had found themselves unable to put down the evil. The facility with which the practice was carried on he found to result from the system adopted by the proprietors of the gambling-houses of regularly bribing the police—a system which, of course, had a most demoralizing effect upon that force. After a careful consideration of the whole subject, he had come to the conclusion that the decision arrived at by his noble Predecessor was the right one, and that
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the first step towards the suppression of these houses was to obtain a full knowledge of them by means of a compulsory registration. Under these circumstances, he informed the Governor that he declined to sanction any departure from the previous instructions, and that any charges that might be made on the registration of the houses should be such as should merely meet the expenses incurred in keeping them under surveillance and the control of the police. In the meanwhile the rumour that it was the intention of the Governor to grant licences had spread through the adjoining towns, and numerous offers were made to the Governor of large sums for the privilege of keeping gaming-houses in Hong Kong. In consequence of the spread of these rumours he (the Duke of Buckingham) had considered it necessary to repeat to the Governor his instructions that no revenues could be permitted to be raised through granting such licences, and that his attention should be directed towards the ultimate suppression of these houses, and not towards drawing a revenue out of them. It appeared that subsequently to the despatch of those instructions a certain number of these houses had been registered, and that considerable fees had been paid by their proprietors; but at the present moment the Government had not received from the Governor a copy of the rules and regulations under which the registration had taken place, neither were they aware of the steps that the Governor had taken in the matter. The object which both he and his noble Predecessor had in view in the instructions they had sent to the Governor of the colony was to secure the ultimate suppression of these gaming-houses, and they never for one moment thought of permitting revenue to be raised by means of licensing such places. There certainly appeared to be an inordinate desire in the colony that the revenues should be raised by any means except that of taxation; but those who advocated such a system would receive no support from Her Majesty's Government. The Governor had intimated his opinion that in a very short period, if stringent means were adopted, the evil of gaming would be extirpated in the island in the same manner that piracy had been put down; but the opinion of Her Majesty's Government was that the spirit of gambling was so innate among the Chinese population that, although it might be

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greatly mitigated, the evil would not be entirely removed within the time contemplated by the Governor. In conclusion, he had to say that he had no objection whatever to laying the ordinances upon the table of their Lordships' House, but that he could not consent to lay upon the table a Correspondence which was not yet brought to a conclusion.

ADJOURNMENT FOR THE RECESS.
  STATEMENT.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I wish to state for the information of this House that I find that the business of the House of Commons will be brought to a close certainly by Friday next; and therefore I think it desirable that the adjournment of both Houses should not be postponed longer than that day. In order that the business of this House may be concluded within that period I have to propose to your Lordships to sit for a short time to-morrow, for the purpose of advancing a stage certain Bills to which no objection has been raised. I was afraid at first that, even in the event of your Lordships agreeing to the proposition I have just made, it would be impossible to adjourn the House before Saturday; but if the business is got through on an early hour on Friday, we may be able to adjourn on that day until the ordinary period of meeting in February.
  SALES OF REVERSIONS BILL.
  (The Lord Chancellor.)

  (NO. 5.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to place the sales of reversions and ordinary sales of land in possession upon an equal footing. Under the existing law a purchaser of a reversion must prove that he has given adequate value for the property—a proof which was not required in the case of the sale of property in possession. In one instance, where the purchaser had evidently acted in the most upright and fair manner, the Judges had felt bound by the authorities to reverse the decision of the Master of the Rolls holding the sale in question good. All that the Bill now before the House proposed to do was to enact that the pur-
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  chase of a reversion should not be set aside merely upon the ground of the inadequacy of the price paid, leaving the law as it at present stood in cases of fraud, overreaching, or gross inadequacy from which fraud may be presumed. He thought he need say no more to induce their Lordships to read the Bill a second time.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  METROPOLITAN STREETS ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 4.)
  (The Lord Clinton.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Clinton.)
  LORD CLINTON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it had been introduced for the purpose of remedying a defect in an Act which was passed last Session by altering its 6th clause, so that it should no longer apply to costermongers or other itinerant tradesmen, and by this means to place the costermongers in the same position they occupied before the passing of that Act, with the exception that they were to be under the control of the Commissioners of Police. If this Bill were not passed, not only would serious injury be inflicted upon these persons, but considerable loss and great inconvenience would be caused to numbers of poor persons throughout the metropolis who were enabled through the means of itinerant vendors of provisions to obtain articles of food and small luxuries more cheaply and more readily than they could do in any other way. He trusted that their Lordships would consent to read the Bill a second time.
  Motion ageeed to: Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).

  ADDRESS POR PAPERS.
  LORD DUFFERIN, in moving an Address for Police Reports of the recent Processions in Ireland, said, he would take that opportunity of asking the noble Earl at the head of the Government, Whether his attention had been directed to certain processions which were said to have taken

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  place in Cork and other parts of Ireland with the avowed object of eliciting an expression of sympathy from certain portions of the population in favour of the unfortunate men who had recently been executed at Manchester? He was, of course, aware that, however intense might have been the spirit of partisanship which gave birth to these demonstrations, it was quite possible that those who took part in them had kept within the letter of the law, and therefore had not rendered themselves liable to any punishment; and upon this point, therefore, he did not wish to express any opinion whatever, nor to elicit one from Her Majesty's Government. In all probability, the Government had not yet in its possession sufficiently full information as to what had occurred to enable them to arrive at a conclusion upon the subject. Nor did he wish to speak in any harsh terms of the processionists themselves. He deeply deplored that these demonstrations should have been made, because they implied the existence of an unhealthy and unfortunate state of feeling in the minds of a certain class of the population of Ireland. But when their Lordships recollected that within the last few days the popular press of Ireland—including, he was sorry to say, some of the most respectable of the journals of that country—had persisted in representing that the murder of the unfortunate policeman Brett in the discharge of his duty was an unforeseen and an unintentional accident, and that the execution of Allen and his accomplices was not carried into effect for the purpose of vindicating our outraged laws, but to gratify a vindictive and anti-Irish spirit on the part of the English Government, they could not be surprised that an essentially warm-hearted and affectionate people like the Irish should give expression to feelings which such gross misrepresentations as those to which he had referred were calculated to elicit. The purpose for which he had ventured to rise was to impress upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity for an impartial enforcement from one end of Ireland to the other of the Party Processions Act without regard to religious creed or to political opinion. He did so the more earnestly inasmuch as he had very recently been called upon in the official position he held in his own county to assist in the rigorous application of the regulations of that Act. As their Lordships would probably remember, under the Party
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  Processions Act any procession, no matter however orderly it might be, or however respectable the persons composing it, would render those forming it liable to prosecution if any of them decorated themselves with party colours. The case to which he had referred as having occurred in his own county was that of Mr. Johnston and his friends, who had organized a procession from one small town to another. The magistrates went thoroughly into the case, and gave it their most patient attention. It was clearly proved that no breach of the peace had been committed, and that nothing could have been more orderly or more respectably conducted; but it was also clearly established that while proceeding along the public thoroughfare some of those who formed the procession had worn party colours. The magistrates, upon this evidence, felt themselves bound to come to the conclusion that the parties had placed themselves within the provisions of the Act, and that therefore the only course open to them was to send the case to the assizes. Nothing could be more unfortunate than that an impression should become prevalent that the law was different in one part of Ireland to what it was in another, and that the Party Processions Act was to be enforced with rigour in the Northern district of the Island, while it was permitted to be broken with impunity in the South. Of course, he was aware it had been said that those who took part in the processions in question had only worn green, and that as green was not a party, but a national colour, those wearing it had not brought themselves within the provisions of the Act. That was a legal question which he was not in a position to discuss; but he could not help feeling that an Orangeman who had been put into gaol for wearing a blue riband would find a difficulty in assenting to the distinction drawn between the guilt of wearing the different colours. Their Lordships were all aware that green was the national colour of Ireland, and that all Irishmen were proud to wear it on certain occasions; but unfortunately that colour had, in many instances, been degraded from a national colour to a party emblem, and had acquired as sinister a significance as orange or blue. He was certainly no friend to the Orange Society—he had no sympathy with what he might term the presumptuous way in which the Orangemen claimed for themselves a monopoly of loyalty in Ireland. He acknowledged that they were a loyal, orderly, and

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  respectable body of men; but he was convinced there were thousands in Ireland who, though not Orangemen, and abhorring the name of the society, were every whit as loyal as the members of that body. But that was no reason why they should be dealt with differently from the rest of their fellow-countrymen, and he confessed he should find difficulty in suppressing feelings of indignation if the law were applied towards one portion of Her Majesty's subjects in one way, while in reference to another portion it received a different interpretation. It was on that account that he had ventured to take this opportunity of pressing upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity of an impartial application of the Party Processions Act—so far, of course, as that Act might be found applicable—to every portion or party in Ireland; and he felt convinced that the observations he had made were consonant with the feelings of the noble Earl opposite. No Government had given more tangible proof of its determination to administer the law in Ireland with perfect impartiality than the present Government, and it was only those who were acquainted with the vehemence of opinion on this subject in Ireland who could appreciate the difficulties they had to encounter in adopting such a course. It is true he would not be justified in identifying the noble Earl with the Orange Society; but it was a fact that the members of that society were always more ready to extend their confidence to the noble Earl's Government than to any other great party in the State; and among its chiefs were to be reckoned many of the noble Earl's stanchest supporters. Consequently, Her Majesty's Government must have had very many inducements to act with less vigour than they had done, and it was on that account that he was glad to have the opportunity of thanking the noble Earl for the impartiality which he had displayed in connection with the application of this law; and he was also encouraged, on the same account, to recommend the occurrences to which he had referred to the consideration of the noble Earl, and of the Irish Government. The noble Lord concluded by moving an Address to Her Majesty for Police Reports of the recent Processions in Ireland.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, not only can I not find any fault with the language which the noble Lord has used in asking for these Returns, but I feel
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  bound to offer him my sincere thanks for the very handsome manner in which he has spoken of the motives and the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in dealing with the difficult question of the various denominational processions in Ireland. I may also say that the noble Lord did me no more than justice in stating that he entirely disclaimed any idea of connecting me with the Orange Society in Ireland. I have no hesitation, while at all times I am willing to bear testimony to the loyalty of that body—a loyalty which I am far from admitting to belong to them exclusively—in expressing my deep regret that they should be in the habit of keeping up processions, anniversaries, and celebrations which cannot but be displeasing under certain circumstances to a large portion of their fellow-countrymen, who entertain different religious views; and I have the satisfaction of knowing that that feeling of regret is shared by many of the most distinguished leaders of the Orange party themselves. There are many distinguished members of that society who think that, even when care is taken not to fall within the letter of the law prohibiting party processions in Ireland, still on the ordinary grounds of good feeling, processions which are in the slightest degree calculated to raise unpleasant feelings between members of different religions ought to be avoided. I entirely concur also in what the noble Lord has said about the unfortunate state of feeling in Ireland—a state of feeling fostered, as I am sorry to say it has been, by a large portion of the public press of that country, who have entirely misrepresented the course which Her Majesty's Government felt it their painful duty to pursue with regard to the unfortunate men who suffered capital punishment the other day. Nothing can be more contrary to truth than to imagine that a revengeful or vindictive spirit, or even political feeling, actuated the Government in the performance of what they regarded as an extremely painful duty. It was not, in point of fact, a political offence at all of which those men were guilty; it was a deliberate and premeditated murder—that is to say, it was a premeditated and determined act of violence, to be supported by murder if necessary, and I cannot regard murder as less murder because executed in pursuance of a treasonable object. Therefore, with no vindictive feeling—indeed, with the desire of carrying the prerogative of mercy as far as possible—we could not but be-

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  lieve that we should have been guilty of a grave dereliction of duty if we had allowed an act of deliberate and premeditated murder to pass without making such a signal example as would show that treason was not to be played with in this country—that it is an offence that involves the most serious consequences and must be visited with the most serious penalties of the law. We were in hopes, undoubtedly, when last year we forbore from executing the final sentence of the law upon Burke, that the conciliatory spirit by which we were actuated would have a beneficial effect in preventing the recurrence of similar crimes. Unfortunately, we have found that we were mistaken; unfortunately, it may be, the determination of the Government not to carry out the extreme sentence of the law in that case may have encouraged others in the belief that they could commit crimes of the deepest dye with comparative impunity. It became absolutely necessary therefore to show that the Government was not to be deterred, either by the number of those engaged in the commission of these offences, or by the number of those by whom an extension of clemency was demanded, from doing that from which we felt it impossible, consistently with our duty, to shrink. It is, I think, a most unhappy circumstance that in Ireland the feelings of the people on both sides should be so excitable, so easily raised, and so easily led aside, so that almost the whole duty of the Government in that country is to act as a mediator between contending parties, and to prevent bloodshed and mutual violence. The noble Lord did justice to Her Majesty's Government in the impartiality which he attributed to them. In an official answer which I made to the Orange party generally when applied to for the repeal of the Party Processions Act—an answer which the noble Lord may, perhaps, have seen—I said that while we regarded that Act as exceptional legislation, it was called for by the exceptional state of feeling in Ireland. I added, moreover, that it was the bounden duty of the Government to enforce the law, as the noble Lord acknowledges we have done, impartially and fairly between all parties, and not to connive at any violation of it, or at any offence which might bring the parties engaged within the provisions of the Act. But the noble Lord must excuse me if I say that he has to a certain extent misconstrued the provisions of this Act. The
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  Party Processions Act does not say that it is penal to wear a riband of a particular colour, even if that riband may be taken to indicate a certain phase of political feeling on the part of the wearer. The words of the Act are these—
  "That from and after the passing of this Act all assemblies of persons in Ireland who shall meet and parade together or join in procession, and who shall bear, wear, or have among them or any of them any firearms or other offensive weapons, or any banner, emblem, flag, or symbol, the display whereof may be calculated or tend to provoke animosity between different classes of Her Majesty's subjects, or who shall be accompanied by any person or persons playing music or singing any song which may be calculated or tend to provoke animosity between different classes of Her Majesty's subjects, shall be unlawful assemblies, and every person present thereat shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished accordingly."
  Now, however much one may regret the tone of public feeling which induces persons either in this country or in Ireland to regard those unfortunate persons who have forfeited their lives in the light rather of political martyrs instead of offenders against the law of their country, neither in this country nor in Ireland, as far as I am aware, have any demonstrations of sympathy or regret been held in which those engaged in the demonstrations have brought themselves by the display of any "banner, emblem, flag, or symbol," under the Party Processions Act, or exposed themselves to the penalties of the law. The question was carefully considered previous to the demonstrations which took place in Dublin and Cork, whether the processions were such as to excite reasonable apprehensions of disturbance; but it was the opinion of the local authorities that no breach of the law was probable, and, in point of fact, there was no violence or disturbance of the public peace. The character of the processions was no doubt greatly to be deplored; but, at the same time, there was no violation either of the ordinary law or of the Party Processions Act, so far as our present information goes, to justify Her Majesty's Government in taking any steps to interfere with the processions, or to punish the persons who took part in them. Further information may show a different state of things; but, on the one hand, while Her Majesty's Government are determined to enforce the law impartially and firmly against all who may violate it from political motives on the one side or the other; on the other hand, I am quite sure the noble Lord

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  will not wish us to strain the law, and attempt to bring within its limits offences which do not fairly come within the scope and purpose of the Act. I assure the noble Lord that he said truly that I had no sympathy with the Orange party, nor have I any peculiar sympathy with the Roman Catholic population in the South. Her Majesty's Government are determined to enforce the law firmly, temperately, and, above all, impartially. I am much obliged to the noble Lord for the credit he has given to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the present Executive for carrying out the Party Processions Act with perfect impartiality up to the present time. I am not aware that any persons have subjected themselves to the penalty of the law; but if it should come to the knowledge of Her Majesty's Government that any have so subjected themselves, they will without vindictiveness, but at the same time temperately and firmly, discharge the duty cast upon them, and vindicate the law of the land.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.