Lords Sitting of 22 March 1866

MINUTES.
Several Lords took the Oath.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—County Courts * (55); Dockyard Extensions Act Amendment* (58); Sheriff Court Houses (Scotland) Act (1860) Amendment* (57); Exchequer Bills and Bonds* (58); Masters and Operatives (59); Attorneys and Solicitors (Ireland) 1866* (60).
Second Reading-Consolidated Fund £19,000,000.*
Third Reading-Consolidated Fund £19,000,000.*

MASTERS AND OPERATIVES BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSrose to lay upon the table a Bill to establish Councils of Conciliation for the purpose of ending disputes between Masters and Operatives, Their Lordships might recollect that in 1860, when a Bill on the subject came up from the House of Commons, their Lordships did not receive it with much favour: it was sent to a Select Committee upstairs, and, as the Session was considerably advanced, the Bill was allowed to drop. He took no further steps with respect to it, though he felt a very great interest in the subject, until he should have an opportunity of consulting with masters representing capital to the amount of hundreds of thousands, and also with the men. In the course of time he found that the operatives generally were discussing the Bill and expressing their desire that such a measure should pass. That induced him last Session to lay on the table a copy of the Bill, and to ask their Lordships to read it a first time, He then stated it was not his intention to ask to have the Bill read a second time unless both masters and operatives desired it. His object was to obtain circulation for the Bill throughout the country, so that masters and operatives might be able to express an opinion upon it. So matters remained until this year; when the operatives of London generally took the Bill deeply into consideration; they had a great many meetings upon it; and about ten days ago deputies from bodies representing, he was told, something like 100,000 operatives, all in favour of the Bill, met; a resolution in support of the Bill was put, and one of the delegates moved an amendment to the effect that they should not accept the measure; but the amendment was rejected, and the
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  resolution in favour of the Bill passed by an almost unanimous vote. A deputation was appointed by the meeting, and they did him the honour to go down and wait upon him. He (Lord St. Leonards) found that these men thoroughly understood the matter, they thoroughly understood their own interest, and they were earnestly desirous—at least as far as he could judge from their expressions—to conciliate the masters. As the great body of the operatives in London were in favour of the Bill, that circumstance had induced him to take the matter up, and he now desired to ascertain whether the masters were in favour of it: for unless both masters and operatives expressed their approval of the Bill he should not attempt to carry it into execution. He rather expected that the masters would approve, because in the year 1860 at a large meeting the great London builders were all in favour of the Bill, and many of them and of the great contractors, who were themselves Members of the other House, supported the measure. His object, therefore, now, in laying this Bill again upon the table, was that the masters might meet and express their opinions upon it. If the masters expressed themselves favourable to the Bill, he would then venture to take their Lordships' opinion upon it; if unfavourable, he would take no further steps in the matter, for it was not his intention to do more unless with the approbation of both masters and operatives. He begged to move the first reading of the Bill.
  A Bill to establish Equitable Councils of Conciliation to adjust Differences between Masters and Operatives—Was presented by The Lord SAINT LEONARDS; read 1a. (No. 59.)

RECORD OF TITLE OFFICE (IRELAND).

  PETITION. MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREin presenting a Petition from the grand jury of the county of Sligo praying for greater facilities under the Record of Title and Land Debentures (Ireland) Acts, 1865, by reducing the Court fee of 10 s. per cent now levied on all Conveyances and Declarations of Title issued by the Landed Estates Court, and in moving for certain Papers, said, that the petition he had presented to the House, and to which he begged to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government, was similar to two or three others which had been already presented on this subject, and as it related to a matter of considerable

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  importance to the landed interest in Ireland, he would give a short explanation of it. When the Incumbered Estates Court was established in 1849, the expenses of it were defrayed by the public. In 1858 it was thought advisable to extend the benefits of that Court to all land in Ireland whatsoever, and an Act was passed converting the Incumbered Estates Court into the Landed Estates Court, and means were adopted to make it self-supporting by imposing a Court fee of 10 s. per cent on properties passing through it of a less value than £10,000, and of £1 per cent if in excess of that value. By an Act of 1861 this was afterwards reduced to a uniform fee of 10 s. per cent; but the Commissioners of the Treasury had the power to vary this fee in an upward direction, in case the fee of 10 s. did not pay one-half the expenses of the Landed Estates Court. And it was also provided that by an arrangement with the Bank of Ireland the balances of purchase-money lying in the Bank pending distribution should be invested, and the interest thus made available to assist in supporting the Court. At first the whole, and by a subsequent modification of the Act half the expenses of working the Act were to be thus defrayed. The Landed Estates Act conferred indefeasible Parliamentary titles, but made no provision for continuing them, or for conferring fresh ones with respect to subsequent dealings, such as re-sales, mortgagees, or leases. An association was formed in Ireland, presided over by the Duke of Leinster, which promoted an Act to supply this deficiency. The late Lord Chancellor last year took charge of the Bill, which was prepared and introduced by the Government, and became law as the "Record of Title Act." The "Land Debentures Act," to which he would presently refer, was ultimately made dependent upon it. But both these Acts presupposed a conveyance or declaration of title under the Landed Estates Act. Only about one-sixth of Ireland had passed through the Court, and it was complained that the heavy Court fee deterred persons from obtaining the preliminary conveyance or declaration of title which was required before taking advantage of the Record of Title Act. In England the Land Transfer Act, 1862, conferred Parliamentary titles, and also provided for subsequent dealings with those titles; and the fees for both these purposes were fixed by the Registrar of the Court with the con-
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  currence of the Lord Chancellor. In Ireland the Judges of the Landed Estates Court had adopted a like low scale of fees for recording Parliamentary titles and subsequent dealings therewith; but it was the heavy fees on the first issuing of Conveyances or Declarations of Title which were complained of. To show the difference of the state of things in the two countries, he would state the following facts: In Ireland the fees on an estate worth £5,000 would amount to £25 against £9 5s. in England; on one worth £20,000 the figures would be £100 against £25; and on one worth £100,000, £500 against £68 10 s. Thus it would be seen that whilst in Ireland the fees were in direct proportion to the value of the estate, in England they varied in an inverse proportion to the value; and were also much lower than in Ireland. It was also stated that the heavy fees had tended to decrease the business in the Landed Estates Court, as shown by the following figures: The aggregate sales in the last year of the Incumbered Estates Court (1858) amounted to £2,985,230. The average balance in the bank was £573,000, producing under the arrangement above referred to a revenue towards the support of the Court of £6,576. Last year, on the other hand, the aggregate sales amounted to £992,856 only, and the average balance was £114,000, producing nothing. There was also a minor complaint with respect to the Office being only opened two hours a day, and being supplied with only one clerk. As to the Land Debentures Act, the petitioners complained that instead of there being a fee of 2s. 6d. per cent on each debenture issued under it and a distinct duty on each transfer, by a supposed oversight in a clause introduced by the Treasury a composition of 10 s. per cent was rendered necessary; whereas, under the English Debenture Act, 16 & 17 Vict. c. 59, s. 14, the composition was optional. They further complained that there was also a sum of £1 15 s. payable on each certificate of charge, irrespective of the amount declared chargeable, and that the owner must pay 2s. 6d. per cent on each debenture, although he could only issue to himself. The petitioners prayed, with respect to the first part of their petition, that they might be placed by the Treasury in exactly the same position with regard to this taxation by Court fees as persons in England now are in the English Land Registry Office. He begged to present the

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  petition, and make the Motion of which he had given notice.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House—"Copies of the Correspondence between the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the Judges of the Landed Estates Court and the Treasury with reference to the appointment of clerks in the Record of Title Office, of the Report of Messrs. Huggessen and Law (if any) on this subject, and of a memorial forwarded by the Registration of Title Association to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the above-mentioned Court Fee and certain alterations required in the Land Debentures Act (Ireland) 1865."—(the Earl of Belmore.)
  LORD DUFFERINsaid, it was perfectly impossible for Her Majesty's Government to give an immediate reply on the subject to which the Memorial referred. That Memorial, indeed, had only just been brought under the notice of the Treasury, and it would of course be impossible to arrive at a decision respecting it until further time had been allowed for consideration. The Government was most anxious to give all possible attention to the Memorial. With regard to the Papers moved for, he was afraid he could not promise that they should be produced, inasmuch as the correspondence had not yet terminated, and it would not be desirable to lay it upon the table of the House in an incomplete state. With regard to the copy of the Memorial, there would be no objection to lay it upon the table.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he would withdraw the first part of his Motion, and only move for the Memorial.
  Motion withdrawn: Then copy of a Memorial from the Registration of Title Association and others, Inhabitants of Ireland, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, ordered to be laid before the House.—(The Earl of Belmore.)

  STREET ACCIDENTS.—QUESTION
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHinquired of Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is in contemplation to introduce any Measure to give greater Security to Foot Passengers in the Streets of the Metropolis against the reckless driving of Carts and other Vehicles therein? It was high time that something should be done to prevent the numerous accidents that were daily occurring in the streets of the metropolis. In the year 1858 he brought the subject under the notice of the House; and he found that from the 1st of January, 1858, to the 1st of March, 1860, there
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  were 134 persons killed in the streets of London, and 1,827 maimed. From the 1st of January, 1862, to the 1st of May, 1863, there were 138 persons killed, and 1,497 maimed. These figures ought to have attracted the attention of the Home Secretary to the subject, with a view to finding a remedy; but, notwithstanding these Returns, the right hon. Gentleman had not paid the slightest attention to it, or had shown any disposition to do anything to prevent the recurrence of these accidents. He supposed the reason was that latterly the right hon. Baronet's attention had been called to the possible reform of the patriotic borough of Morpeth, for which the right hon. Baronet sits, and had caused him some uneasiness of mind, and also to the subject of the pole-axe, which had of late engaged so much of his attention. Now he (the Marquess of Westmeath) thought that the pole-axe might be directed to the right hon. Baronet and his borough, and no very great public inconvenience would arise. ["Oh, oh!"
  EARL STANHOPE: I appeal to your Lordships whether such language ought to be tolerated in your Lordships' House. I call the noble Marquess to order.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he was excessively sorry if he had made use of any expression which was disrespectful to their Lordships, but he must say that in adverting to that right hon. Gentleman and his conduct in the office which he held he could not use any language too strong; while he was desirous not to make use of any language which might be contrary to the rules of their Lordships' House, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had laid himself open to any remarks which could be made in reference to this subject. He felt very strongly on the subject, and could not pretend to give up his feelings of humanity. This was a matter which ought not to be lightly treated. See how it stood. In the year 1865 no fewer than 180 persons were killed, and 1,075 maimed. If the right hon. Gentleman had evinced the slightest disposition to take this question up, he would not have brought it under the notice of their Lordships, He would now mention what, in his judgment, would tend to alleviate the evil. When, on the previous occasion, he introduced the subject to their Lordships, he suggested that the majority of the cases which were then taking place arose from reckless boys, such

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  as butchers' boys and costermongers' boys driving vehicles. It did not appear that many persons were killed by cabs and omnibuses; and he had drawn attention to the fact, that the owners of one-horse carts, which were the chief causes of street accidents, did not affix their names on a conspicuous part of their vehicles, but on their shafts, so that, in case of an accident, the person who was to blame had a very large chance of escaping without any notice being taken of the name. In one case the driver of a cart, while trying to force his way between an omnibus and the kerbstone, knocked a man down, and the death of this poor man was the result. For that offence the driver was sentenced to only three months' imprisonment. He was of opinion that very many of those accidents and offences might be prevented if mounted policemen were employed to follow and take into custody persons driving or riding at a dangerous speed. He hoped the Government would seriously entertain the idea of changing the sex of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, which one must infer would be an improvement for the public service. ["Oh!"] The noble Marquess concluded by inquiring of Her Majesty's Government whether it is in contemplation to introduce any Measure to give greater Security to Foot Passengers in the Streets of the Metropolis against the reckless driving of Carts and other Vehicles therein?
  EARL GRANVILLEsubmitted that it was too much to attempt to make the Government responsible for all the accidents occurring in the streets of the metropolis. He really thought that if there was any advantage in Ministerial responsibility in the present instance the attempt had been reduced to an absurdity by the noble Marquess, who, in most improper and un-Parliamentary language, had attacked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and had been most properly called to order by the noble Earl on the cross-benches. The noble Marquess sought to make the Home Secretary responsible for accidents resulting from the very great increase in the population and the enormous increase of traffic in the streets. [The Marquess of WESTMEATH: I did not say that the Secretary of State was the cause of these accidents, but that he had not shown the slightest disposition to check the evil.] The noble Marquess had suggested that a force of mounted police should be employed; but in the only case brought for-
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  ward by him the person was killed in consequence of the police having failed to catch the driver in time. He should not offer any opinion on the remedy proposed by the noble Marquess further than to say that if mounted police were to be riding about the streets in the way suggested their movements would be likely to add very much to the existing difficulties of street traffic. It occurred to him that the noble Marquess could not have considered the practical effects of such a plan. A Bill had been introduced in the other House of Parliament for regulating the traffic of the City, and that Bill had been referred to a Committee of gentlemen competent to deal with the question. He hoped they would receive valuable suggestions, because the inquiry really was one of very considerable difficulty. It was impossible for any one to ride through the streets of London in a Hansom without witnessing providential escapes of persons who almost threw themselves under vehicles. It had been proposed to make bridges on which foot passengers could cross the roadways at a high level. He questioned very much whether persons would avail themselves of such bridges to any important extent. There was also a suggestion of subways, and these, perhaps, would be used more than bridges. A gentleman whom he had seen that morning, suggested that there should be brought into use in the streets something like the semaphore signal now used on the railways. The idea was that the speed of vehicles might be regulated by means of this signal, and that there might be an indication to vehicles to stop in order to allow foot passengers to cross. He did not know whether this was a practical suggestion; but he hoped that some means would be found to render the streets more safe for foot passengers. He believed that the greater number of the accidents did not occur in the narrow streets of the City, along which the traffic went in two lines; the great difficulty was felt in large spaces, where carriages came up rapidly from different directions, and met in points at which streets were crossed by foot passengers. The Government were of course anxious that the best means of preventing death and injury in the public thoroughfares should be adopted; and there was not the slightest foundation for the assault made on his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary by the noble Marquess who had introduced the subject.

  THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT IN ST. PAUL'S CATHEDRAL.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CADOGANrose to ask the Lord President of the Council, Whether any, and, if any, what Progress has been made towards the Completion of the Monument to the Memory of the late Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral, and which was voted by both Houses of Parliament in the Year 1856? The noble Earl said, that in putting this Question he was afraid he should render himself liable to a similar rebuke to that administered to the noble Marquess who was sitting near him, as his object was not only to elicit the very scanty amount of information he was afraid he should receive, but to bring the pressure of public opinion to bear on that Department of the Government to which those matters belonged, so as to induce Her Majesty's Board of Works to exercise the authority which they undoubtedly possessed to compel the artist who was charged with the execution of this work to hasten its completion. He was induced to put the question because the artist to whom the work was intrusted had already occupied an unreasonable time upon it, and had, he believed, received a very large sum of the public money in advance, while he had treated with apparently the most contemptuous indifference all the remonstrances that had been addressed to him on the subject, forgetting the obligation he owed to the pub-lie as well as to those who employed him. If he required any justification in introducing this subject to their Lordships' attention, he trusted it would be found in the fact that had he put this question a short fortnight since his noble Friend would have been in the unenviable position of having to rise in his place in the House, and to state that he had no information upon the subject to give, and that he was as ignorant of everything relating to it as any of their Lordships or any one out of doors. Since that time, however, he had heard from a private authority upon whom he could rely, that there was a dawn of better things. His informant was an eminent person connected professionally with the Dean and Chapter of the Cathedral of St, Paul's, and also with the Board of Works; who had stated to him (the Earl of Cadogan) that after a series of ineffectual attempts which he believed had extended over nearly five years, he had at length obtained
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  the consent of the artist, Mr. Stephens, to enter his studio; further, Mr. Stephens had stated that the model was in a forward condition, and that in the course of a very few months, provided he retained his health, he hoped he should be able to allow the work to be inspected by his right hon. Friend in the other House, in company with any other Gentleman whom he might select to accompany him. Now, that certainly was something; but he trusted that their Lordships would be of opinion that that was not enough, and that something more was required. He hoped that that something more would be an assurance, on the part of his noble Friend, that every possible means would be resorted to, and every possible pressure put upon the artist in order to induce him to bring this work to a completion within a reasonable time. He had often heard this subject discussed in private; he did not think it had over been thoroughly discussed in either House of Parliament. He had heard various reasons given—he could not say excuses—to account, for the delay. He was told that Mr. Stephens, the artist, was of a peculiarly sensitive temperament, and had two idiosyncrasies—one of which was that he never could bring himself to the continuous labour requisite to complete any work on which he was employed, and the other was that he was most intolerant of anything like observation, criticism, or interference. He should be the last to object to extending indulgence and forbearance to an artist charged with a work like this; but there was a certain amount of consideration due to the relatives, friends, and admirers of the illustrious man to whom that monument was to be erected, and whose feelings of reverence for his memory if it had not been outraged had been much wounded by the delay attending the prosecution of the work. The noble Earl concluded by asking the Lord President of the Council whether any, and if any, what Progress had been made towards the Completion of the Monument to the Memory of the late Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral, which was voted by both Houses of Parliament in the Year 1856?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, it would be most unreasonable on my part to make any complaint of the noble Earl, as I felt myself bound to do of the noble Marquess opposite. I am bound to admit that I think the noble Earl has got an admirable case, and, further, that he

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  certainly stated it in the most courteous and temperate manner. I do not know whether the House is aware of the circumstances attending the ordering of this monument. Mr. Stephens was selected for the task by Lord John Manners as a man of great genius, and I believe there is no doubt whatever on that point. Since then, it is quite true that years have elapsed. I have myself gone through the correspondence, and I am bound to say that it has certainly not been wanting in the most urgent appeals, written in the strongest language—language calculated to excite the deepest regret on the part of any artist that he had not fulfilled his contract, and to stimulate him to the utmost exertion. But the state of things is as follows:—There have been delays and consequent remonstrances on the part of the Board of Works. Sometimes want of money was pleaded—a difficulty which was met by the Department; sometimes his state of health was pleaded, and this has been the general excuse; but I cannot say I consider them sufficiently valid. At the same time, as the noble Earl is perhaps aware, the monument has been placed under the superintendence of Mr. Penrose, the architect to the Cathedral. This gentleman has seen the model within the last few days, and he reports that it promises to be a work of very great importance and very singular merit. Under these circumstances, although I quite admit they would not warrant unlimited delay, considering that large sums have been already disbursed, and that an assurance has now been given, I hope for the last time, that about the month of August the model will be in a fit state to be inspected by the proper authorities, it has been felt right to give to Mr. Stephens, whose genius, I am happy to say, was not controverted by the noble Earl, the opportunity of finishing the work which has been so long in hand.

  THE CATTLE PLAGUE—FRESH OUTBREAK IN LONDON.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LICHFIELDasked his noble Friend the President of the Council, Whether it is true that the Cattle Plague has been re-introduced into several parts of the Metropolis by means of a cargo of animals imported from Holland?
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am sorry to say there is no doubt whatever that within the last day or so a cargo of Dutch cattle arrived, affected as the noble Earl has
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  stated. I am told that the disease was not sufficiently visible, being only in a state of incubation, and that the Custom House authorities did not detect its existence, but admitted the cattle into the metropolis. I may add that information having been received yesterday by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that proper precautions were not taken in Holland for the prevention of diseased cattle coming to this country, Her Majesty's Ministers have asked Her Majesty to appoint a Council to be held this week with a view to the issue of an Order prohibiting the importation of Cattle from Holland until further notice.
  LORD DENMANhad been anxious to address a few words to their Lordships on this subject. He observed that the clause in the Cattle Plague Bill to prevent the removal of cattle by railway was the best part of it, for he was sure that the "Plague"—
  "Mobilitate viget viresq: acquirit eundo."
  He had read, in the morning of the day on which he spoke, all the Orders in Council from 1745 to 1756, and he found that whenever the precautions taken were relaxed, that the disease broke out again. He thought the late Orders in Council inconsistent in varying the definition of the word animal, which, however, at the season of the year when it took place, was not of much importance. He hoped that the Government would have the firmness to establish a dead-meat market and a quarantine of fourteen days for store-stock, and immediate slaughter at the port of disembarkation for fat stock imported from abroad.

  ATTORNEYS AND SOLICTTORS (IRELAND), 1866, BIIL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Laws for the Regulation of the Profession of Attorneys and Solicitors in Ireland, and to assimilate them to those in England—Was presented by The LORD CHELMSFORD; read 1a. (No. 60.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Four o'clock.