HL Deb 26 July 1866 vol 184 cc1498-9

Amendments reported (according to Order.)

THE EARL OF DERBY

observed, that as there were certain clauses in this Bill which would lead to a great deal of controversy in another place, in order to facilitate other clauses, to which no objection could be taken, he moved that the Report be now received with the omission of the clauses he had first adverted to.

Further Amendments made.

THE EARL OF DERBY

said, that with regard to Clause 25, he believed that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Chichester) intended to move an Amendment. He hoped, however, that he did not propose to strike out the whole of the clause, seeing that it had been very carefully considered by the Select Committee. Its object was to enable the Commissioners to raise the salary of certain officers connected with the Cathedral.

THE EARL OF CHICHESTER

said, he would not detain the House by again stating to their Lordships the objections he entertained to this clause. He moved that after the words "minor canon" the words "schoolmasters and organists" should be struck out, as well as that portion of the clause following "vicars choral and lay clerks."

LORD TAUNTON

held that Cathedral schools were very useful, and that nothing should be done to discourage the schoolmasters. They were as much entitled to consideration as other officers.

THE EARL OF CHICHESTER

observed, that the clause in question was no part of the original Bill, and had been introduced by the Select Committee against the desires of those best informed on the subject. The pupils of the cathedral schools were to a large extent choristers, and the masters had been provided for by the Commissioners, who had shown no desire to stint them.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said, that the officers proposed to be excluded by the Amendment while they remained in connection with the Cathedral ought to be amply remunerated. Had the clause been compulsory there might have been some objection to it; but, as the Commissioners were to be given discretionary power, he hoped the clause would be agreed to.

THE EARL OF POWIS

said, that the clause had received the approval of two most rev. Prelates, and one right rev. Prelate, as well as that of the noble Earl lately at the head of the Government. It appeared to him that the noble Earl (the Earl of Chichester) had struck out certain classes of officers from the clause in a most capricious manner, for, besides schoolmasters he proposed to erase organists and choristers. He trusted the noble Earl would not persevere in his Motion.

THE EARL OF DERBY

said, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were empowered by this clause, if they should think fit, out of the income of the Cathedral to make adequate provision for all those persons who were essential for the proper services of the Cathedral. He could not understand how the Commissioners could decline to take this discretion upon themselves, and as the clause had been sanctioned by the Select Committee, ho hoped the noble Earl would not give the House the trouble of dividing.

THE EARL OF CHICHESTER

said, his objection was that after the Commissioners and the Chapter had agreed between themselves to make sufficient provisions for all these different officers, then Parliament should step in and say that out of the funds which had already been devoted to another purpose further provision should be made for the same object.

THE EARL OF DERBY

said, the clause merely provided that when the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were in receipt of any income accruing to the Dean and Chapter, they should be at liberty out of such income to make adequate provision for these various officers. There was nothing compulsory here. At present the maximum salary of the minor canons, who did nearly all the work, was £150. Now, why should not the Commissioners be free to exercise their own judgment in giving remuneration to those persons who were required for the proper service of the Cathedral?

Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

Clause 27 (Cathedral and Collegiate Chapters may prepare new Codes of Statutes) struck out.

Bill to be read 3a To-morrow, and to be printed as amended (No. 232.)