COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 22 February 1866)

§ LORD TAUNTON
, referring to the wording of the side note, said, it would appear that the Bill was intended to have a general application.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, that the Bill only applied to works of art lent to two Exhibitions—the Exhibitions of Historical Portraits, which it was proposed to have in London this year and next, and the Paris Exhibition next year.

EARL GREY
said, that he thought it was rather a strong measure for Parliament to authorize the trustees of minors 885 and idiots to send valuable pictures out of the country.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, a great number of pictures had been sent to the last Paris Exhibition, and he had not heard of any of them being damaged.

§ LORD OVERSTONE
said, that a picture by Turner belonging to the National Gallery which had been removed for exhibition elsewhere, had been returned damaged by rubbing, though not very seriously; and another picture by the same artist had been returned with the canvas actually broken. He felt very strongly the danger of sending pictures of great value away from the places where they were deposited, and he thought that trustees would more efficiently discharge their duty by affording to the public every reasonable facility of access for seeing them.

§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH
said, that this clause contained a principle of serious importance, started for the first time, and which he thought was highly objectionable. By this clause the national works of art might be sent to the Paris Exhibition; but there was such a rage for exhibitions now in every part of the globe, that if they once allowed works of art to leave this country, although only to Paris, that might be a precedent under which they might be sent anywhere, not only in Europe, but even across the Atlantic. Their Lordships ought to be very careful not to admit such a principle as this; and he would certainly, if the House divided on the subject, support the omission of the words of the Preamble extending the power to lend to the Universal Exhibition at Paris in 1867.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
remarked, that if these words were left out altogether its omission would defeat the object of the Bill, which he did not suppose his noble Friend (the Duke of Marlborough) to intend.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH
drew attention to the fact that this objection was the same as that raised on the second reading of the Bill; and was, in fact, an objection to the whole measure.

§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH
said, that his object was not to prevent any work of art from being lent by trustees in this country; but simply to make such alterations as should have the effect of 886 preventing trustees from sending works of art out of the country. If he consented now to pass the clause, he would, on the third reading, propose an addition to the clause, which would have that effect.

§ LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDE
said, that in removing pictures the principal danger to be encountered was in the packing and unpacking, and many accidents occurred in consequence of inexperience and unskilfulness in conducting those two operations. Of course, a great deal of judgment and discretion must be exercised by those who had the selection of the pictures for removal, as many pictures, from old age and other circumstances, could not be exposed to the risk and danger of travelling. He thought it would be undesirable to extend the power now sought to the case of all trustees of private property, and that it would be better to limit it to those who had the charge of public property. He wished all success to the great undertaking which it was intended to carry out in this country in the present year; but he thought that it would be an ungracious and churlish feeling to deny to the Emperor of the French the gratification of seeing some of the chef d'eeuvres of English art in the Great Exhibition to be opened next year in Paris, especially considering the liberality and generosity with which the Emperor had frequently sent pictures to exhibitions in this country.

EARL GREY
hoped that the noble Duke would not press his Amendment. France and other foreign countries had acted very well in respect of our exhibitions, and it would be a bad return on our part to say that pictures from our public galleries might not be sent to the French Exhibition.

§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH
doubted whether any foreign Government ever had sent its pictures here. He thought Parliament would be putting the trustees of our public galleries in an invidious position if it invested them with a power which it might not be judicious of them to exercise.

§ LORD TAUNTON
concurred with his noble Friend (Earl Grey) in thinking that we should not be acting very courteously towards France if a limitation were inserted which would prevent trustees from lending pictures for the Great Exhibition of 1867.

§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURY
said, he did not recollect any case in which any ancient works of art had been sent from abroad to our exhibitions. Modern pic- 887 tures had been sent, the private property of foreign sovereigns, or belonging to the artists themselves, and the country was grateful for the loan of those pictures; but, as a matter of history and of fact, he did not recollect any pictures being sent from the Louvre, Florence, Milan, or any of the other places containing the art treasures of Europe to this country for exhibition.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
thought the noble Earl was mistaken. To the last Great Exhibition in London works of art were sent by the Government of France, by the Belgian Government, and, he believed, by other Governments. These works were modern, no doubt, but they were very valuable.

§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURY
believed it would be found that the works alluded to by the noble Lord were from private collections.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
thought not.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH
then moved an Amendment to leave out words of the clause which gave the power of loan to the trustees of married women, and of persons labouring under incapacities; and thus confining the power to the trustees of public institutions and to tenants for life.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
appealed to the noble Duke not to press the Amendment, on the ground that it would be ungracious to refuse the trustees of our public institutions power to send their pictures to France, while we were permitting them to lend to our own portrait exhibitions in London.

§ EARL RUSSELL
also urged the noble Duke not to persevere with his Amendment.

§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH
said, that he should be sorry to do anything ungracious or discourteous towards a country with which we are on such friendly terms as we were with France. He would, therefore, withdraw his Amendment.