Lords Sitting of 20 February 1866

MINUTES.
Several Lords took the Oath.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Metalliferous Mines* [H.L.] (21); Habitual Offenders (Scotland) (1866)* [H.L.] (22).
Second Reading—Art [H.L.] (15).
Royal Assent—Cattle Diseases.

CATTLE PLAGUE ACT.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked the noble Earl the President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of the Secretary of State for the Home Department to offer any suggestions to the local authorities for their guidance in framing rules under the Cattle Diseases Act? He feared that without some suggestions from a general authority uniformity could scarcely be expected. He understood that the local authorities would probably be called upon to frame these rules by Saturday, or not later than Monday.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEalso desired to inquire of his noble Friend (Earl Granville) whether the inspectors who had been already appointed would continue to hold office until the local authorities made new appointments, or whether the Act which had received the Royal Assent that day did not put an end to their appointment.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was sorry his noble Friend (the Earl of Dalhousie) had not given him notice of his Question, for he was not prepared to give a positive answer to it offhand; but he did not apprehend that the Bill which was now an Act would stop the operation of the Orders in Council till the local authorities gave effect to the provisions of the new Act. With regard to the Question of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough), it was to be remembered that Parliament had taken this matter to a certain extent out of the hands of the Government. Whatever was now done must be done in accordance with the provisions of the Act. At the same time, he was sure his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would be glad to give any assistance in his power
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to the local authorities, and it had been already suggested that instructions should be issued by the Government as to the best modes of disinfection.

CATTLE PLAGUE RETURNS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL STANHOPEwished to call the attention of his noble Friend the President of the Council to the unsatisfactory nature of the information supplied by the Cattle Plague Returns issued by the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council; for, while these Returns seemed to announce a diminution at present in the number of cases, in one week 200 inspectors and in another 250 had failed to send in their Returns. The publication of imperfect Returns was calculated to give rise to erroneous impressions, and to hopes that might not be realized. Under these circumstances, it would be well either to make some rule which would secure weekly reports from all the inspectors, or to postpone the publication of the reports for a longer interval than a week.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Returns which were wanting were those from the infected districts in Yorkshire and Cheshire, where the amount of work devolving upon the inspectors was at times so overwhelming as to prevent them, with all the will in the world, from forwarding the Returns in time. He feared that the course suggested by the noble Earl would hardly prove in practice any improvement upon the present system. But the completed Returns, he hoped, would be in their Lordships' hands before the end of the week.

SMALLPOX AMONG SHEEP.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: I am afraid my noble Friend must be nearly tired of answering Questions, but I hope he will excuse my putting another to him—more particularly as I have not given any notice of it. But it was not until this morning that I saw a notification, which appeared last night in the Gazette, to the effect that smallpox had broken out among the sheep in Northamptonshire. I trust that measures either have been or will be promptly taken to prevent any sheep from being allowed to leave the district where the disease has shown itself, and also that provision will be made for burying the carcass of any infected animal. I will only further say that we shall have reason to feel

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  indebted to the noble Earl if he can lay before us any information in addition to that which has appeared in the morning papers; because, if we have the cattle plague supplemented and aggravated by smallpox among the sheep, there is no knowing to what extent the mischief may prevail.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am sorry to say that, according to the information which has reached me, smallpox appears to have broken out among the sheep in a district of Northamptonshire. Of course, we did not lose a single moment in issuing an Order suitable to the circumstances that have arisen. I am encouraged to hope that the mischief may not prove extensive, because a similar case occurred a few months ago, and by prompt and timely measures the disease was entirely stamped out.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: Can the noble Earl state that any information has been received as to the means by which the disease was imported into the district? Has he been able to trace its origin?
  EARL GRANVILLE: The origin of the disease is exceedingly doubtful. I am speaking merely from memory, but the sheep were bought, I think, on the 4th of December, and it was on the 28th of January that the disease showed itself. The disease may possibly have escaped attention during that interval; one of the sheep may have had the disease mildly at first, and it may then have spread from animal to animal during those eight weeks. On that point it is impossible for me to pronounce any opinion; but we have desired the inspector to inquire very closely, and also to ascertain, if possible, whether the sheep came from Holland, or whether they were bought in this country.

THE CATTLE PLAGUE.—QUESTIONS.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, it was rather late to present petitions in reference to a Bill that had received the Royal Assent; two petitions, however, had been intrusted to him having reference to what was called the Cattle Diseases Prevention Bill, but which should properly be called the Cattle Extirpation Bill. The first was from the justices of the peace of the county of Ross, the other from the landed proprietors, tenant-farmers, manufacturers, merchants, and others of Easter Ross, praying that vigorous measures might be taken for stamping out the cat-
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tle plague—by which they meant the in-discriminate slaughter of every animal—and the indemnification of the owners.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he had not been aware that it was intended to pass the Bill through all its stages so hurriedly, or he should have been present the night before. The House having resolved upon the indiscriminate slaughter of cattle throughout the country, it was of vital importance that the Government should ascertain at the earliest possible moment the amount of stock actually in the country. The Department specially intrusted with that duty was doing its best to procure information upon the point; but the Returns which it was empowered to collect were only voluntary. The Government, therefore, ought to take the first opportunity of obtaining Parliamentary powers compelling Returns to be made of the amount of live stock in the country. He perceived that power had been given to the Privy Council of continuing the slaughter of cattle beyond the period fixed by the Act in the first instance. As there was no saying what advice the Government might receive, or what they might think fit to do, it became of double importance that they should not be acting in the dark. Foreign importation could not be relied upon as a source of supply; and it might turn out, after an enormous number of beasts had been killed, that indiscriminate slaughter would not prove successful. When last this country was visited by the cattle plague 100,000 head of cattle were annihilated without stopping or alleviating the infliction. With the information, however, in their possession as to the actual quantity of stock at present in the country, the Government would know how far it was wise to go; and he therefore suggested that clauses on this subject should be introduced into the Bill at present before the other House of Parliament.
LORD LYTTELTONasked whether it was the fact that all the cattle affected with the disease, and now under treatment, whether by Mr. Worms or any other person, even though they might exhibit promising symptoms, were to be destroyed, or whether power existed anywhere to avert this doom, under a special representation of circumstances.
LORD TAUNTONfully agreed with the noble Duke opposite as to the importance of taking powers to render compulsory the collection of information; and hoped that

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agriculturists would now be reconciled to this proceeding annually, for, if once adopted, they would find it to be attended with the greatest benefit.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN. MARRIAGE OF THE PRINCESS HELENA.
Message from The QUEEN—Delivered by The Earl Russell; and read by The Lord Chancellor as follows:—
"VICTORIA R.
"Her Majesty relies upon the cordial Interest which the House of Lords has expressed in the approaching Marriage between The Princess Helena and Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein Sonder-bourg-Augustenburg:
"The numerous Proofs which the Queen has received of their Loyalty to Her Throne, and of their Attachment to Her Person and Family, assure Her of their Willingness to concur in making such a Provision for The Princess Helena, with a view to the proposed Marriage, as may be suitable to the Dignity of the Crown.
V. R."
Ordered, That the said Message be taken into Consideration on Thursday next.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN. PROVISION FOR PRINCE ALFRED.
Message from The QUEEN—Delivered by The Earl Russell; and read by The Lord Chancellor as follows:—
"VICTORIA R.
"Her Majesty being desirous of making competent Provision for the honourable Support and Maintenance of Her Second Son, Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, on his coming of Age, relies upon the Attachment of the House of Lords to concur in the Adoption of such Measures as may be suitable to the Occasion.
V. R."
Ordered, That the said Message be taken into Consideration on Thursday next.

ART BILL— [BILL 15.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY moved the second reading of this Bill, the
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  object of which is to enable holders of valuable pictures and works of art under trust deeds to lend them if they were so disposed, notwithstanding the restrictions of the trust deeds, to the proposed National Portrait Exhibitions in London and the International Exhibition of Paris to be held next year. The works of art were to be intrusted to the President of the Council for the National Portrait Exhibition, and would be returned, as far as possible, without damage; but the Lord President was not to be personally liable for any loss or any damage any work of art might sustain.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but thought the third clause would require some modification in Committee. The President of the Council was not to be in any way responsible for any damage that might occur to the objects lent for the purposes of exhibition; and, indeed, it would appear by the Bill that no one was answerable. By the third clause trustees or guardians would be permitted to lend any of the works of art in their charge to an exhibition, without being liable for any damage; and the consequence might be the guardian himself, perhaps, having little interest in the work, that, through careless packing or rough carriage, a valuable picture might be injured or destroyed.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYreminded the noble Marquess that the Bill was entirely permissive. It compelled no one to lend their pictures—it only enabled them to do so; and of course none would lend a work of art without being fully aware of the conditions upon which it left their hands. He thought the noble Marquess would agree with him that it was impossible to make any one responsible for damage done to their pictures. Holders could lend or not, as they felt disposed.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, it appeared that the Bill was really for the purpose of enabling the British Museum to lend some of the articles which were in the custody of the Trustees. If the power to lend applied only to the owner he would have no objection; but here they were proposing to lend by the authority of trustees and guardians.
  LORD OVERSTONEthought that the Bill if it passed into law would place

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  the Trustees of the British Museum and National Gallery in a very difficult position.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYreplied that if the trustees of national institutions thought there would be danger in lending the works of art it was proposed to borrow, they would of course not lend them.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he did not understand that the Bill gave general permission to trustees to lend works of art under any circumstances, but only to certain specified exhibitions; and these loans under the immediate sanction and control of the President of the Council—the President of the Council being himself morally, though he was not legally, responsible for the safe custody of the pictures. In making the arrangements for the National Portrait Exhibition to take place this and next year, it had been felt that many most valuable and interesting historical portraits could not be obtained, because the trustees in whose custody they were had no power to lend them; and the Bill, therefore, was to enable the trustees to exercise their own judgment as to whether they would allow the pictures to be exhibited, under the control of the President of the Council, in the two cases named.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the noble Earl had quite correctly stated the object of the Bill, which had reference to the Paris Exhibition and the National Portrait Exhibition only, in which the noble Earl had taken so much interest.
  LORD TAUNTONsaid, that if the measure applied only to these two Exhibitions, he entirely approved of it; but there would be considerable objection to allowing the pictures to be lent for exhibition all over the country. If such a power were given, he was afraid the effect would be to prevent persons leaving works of art to the nation.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that it certainly only was intended to apply to the two Exhibitions he had named; but if the wording of the Bill should appear too general, he should be happy to introduce in Committee any words which would make the proper restriction.
  Motion agreed to:—Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

THE CATTLE DISEASES ACT.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH, in giving notice of a Question respecting the Cattle
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  Diseases Prevention Act for Thursday evening, said, he was anxious to know, Whether the local authorities which had existed up to the present time under the Orders in Council had now ceased to exist, or whether they would continue until the new local authorities were constituted? For Scotland a new local authority altogether had been invented, and it must take several days before that body could be constituted. He should like to be informed whether the Act of 1848 was still in existence, or superseded, or only in abeyance? Several communications had reached him by post, that morning, from Scotland with respect to the new Act, and but for the haste with which it had been pressed forward these suggestions might have been considered, to the great improvement of the Act.

  METALLIFEROUS MINES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill relating to Metalliferous Mines—Was presented by The Lord KINNAIRD; read 1a. (No. 21.)

  HABITUAL OFFENDERS (SCOTLAND) (1866) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the better Prevention of certain Offences in Scotland—Was presented by The Lord ROSSIE; read 1a. (No. 22.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.