Lords Sitting of 17 February 1866

MINUTES.
Took the Oath—The Earl of Dudley.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) (12), read 2a Comm. negatived, read 3a and passed, and Royal Assent; Art* (15); Telegraph Act Amendment* (13); Cattle Diseases* (14).

HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND) BILL,

  PASSED THROUGH ALL STAGES.
  Bill brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed (No. 12).
  Order of the Day for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered in order to their being dispensed with, read.
  EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, in moving that this Bill be now read a second time, I have to inform your Lordships that it is with great regret Her Majesty's Government have felt themselves compelled to propose the present measure for the suspension for a limited time of the Constitution in one portion of Her Majesty's dominions; and it is now my purpose to state shortly to your Lordships the reasons which have induced Her Majesty's Government to consider that an extensive and formidable conspiracy exists in Ireland, against which all the regular powers of the law have been put in force by the Lord Lieutenant administering the Government in that part of the United Kingdom.

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  Nevertheless, as by the exertion of those powers the conspiracy has not been suppressed, we now ask your Lordships to apply the apparent remedy in such a dangerous case—the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. With respect to the nature of this conspiracy, it is hardly necessary that I should detain your Lordships by any lengthened explanation. I am not going to refer to any documents, or to bring forward any secret information, because, generally speaking, the proceedings of this conspiracy have been so notorious, and those engaged in the conspiracy have been so much more ready to boast of their strength and objects than to conceal their intentions, that it is not necessary that I should senter into details upon those points. It may, I think, be true that had it not been for the civil war in America, Ireland would have remained in peace and tranquillity at the present time, and the adoption of no extreme measures would have been necessary. But towards the end of the American war the Irish residents in America formed themselves into a vast conspiracy. They collected a large amount of subscriptions, and at one meeting alone it was stated that 1,000,000 dollars were subscribed. Sometimes an invasion of Ireland and at other times an invasion of Canada were threatened. The purpose of this conspiracy was in the first place to overthrow the Queen's authority in Ireland; in the next place to take possession of the estates of the landed proprietors; and in the third place it was an attack against religion, whether the religion of the Protestants belonging to the Established Church and of other Protestants, or the religion of the Roman Catholics. It has been conspicuous from the beginning that these attempts were directed, as stated in the Queen's Speech, against all lawful authority, against property, and religion. After a time the denunciations against England made at the meetings in America were collected and circulated by emissaries sent over from that country to Ireland, where they began their course of operations. Their purpose was to enlist as many persons as possible, whether civilians or military, with a view to insurrection. There can be no doubt as to these facts, because for this offence of conspiring to levy war against the Queen, as defined in a late and most useful Act of Parliament called the Treason Felony Act, the Law Officers of the Crown having advised a prosecution, and many
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  persons having been brought to trial under that Act, the most conclusive evidence was produced against them, showing that they were persons engaged in treasonable practices against the Queen, and that their intention was by means of bloodshed and terror to produce a revolution in Ireland, with all the frightful consequences which must ensue from the attempt at such an outbreak. During the late Special Commission in Ireland, the learned Judges expounded the law in the most lucid and convincing manner, and the juries discharged their functions with a fearlessness and impartiality which showed that a great change had taken place since 1844 and 1848, and a great number of the accused persons were convicted. It was the expectation of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland that the proceedings adopted by the Government would prove sufficient to check the spirit of insurrection; they proved however to be ineffectual, and the conspiracy has accordingly made great advances. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in consultation with his Law Advisers, deliberated a little before the meeting of Parliament on the matter, and they came to the opinion that it might be their duty to ask for a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, though the necessity for such a step was not at that particular time undoubtedly obvious; and they wished, therefore, to wait as long as possible, in order to try to put down the insurrection by the ordinary powers of the law. In this respect I think your Lordships will see reason to commend the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant, who, while desirous to put down the insurrection, and restore the country to peace and tranquillity, was at the same time anxious to perform that service to the Queen and country by the ordinary means of the law, and without any suspension of the Constitution in Ireland. After some time, however, it was found on inquiry that the spirit of Fenianism, as it is called, so far from being subdued, had spread more and more; that fresh emissaries were arriving from America, and that a great fabrication of bullets and implements of war was being carried on. It was then evident that, instead of considering their enterprise altogether a failure, the "Head Centre," as he is called, and the other persons who were the heads and leaders in this Fenian conspiracy, persuaded themselves that they might speedily take measures to begin a successful insurrection. There was not, I think, any danger that

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  such an insurrection, if they were rash enough to attempt it, would really have had any success; but there was a very great chance that much bloodshed and destruction of property might have occurred, and that the country might have, been placed in such a state of insecurity that all persons of property would have fled from it, and that there would have been a suspension of all those operations by which the industrious classes live. Attempts were made—almost universally unsuccessful, I am happy to say—to tamper with Her Majesty's soldiers, and to induce them to abandon their duty of obedience to the Crown, to receive what was called the Fenian pay, and to become parties in this great conspiracy. A few men, I am sorry to say, were seduced from their allegiance—they are, however, but few, and they will, no doubt, be made amenable to the law by which such an offence is punishable. I may add that by a long letter from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in which he details all the measures he has adopted to put down this conspiracy, it appears that his conviction is that the Fenian spirit still continues unsubdued; that there are a number of strangers in Ireland, about 500, engaged in treasonable practices and acting in different bodies, and that it would be impossible for him to answer for the peace of Ireland or the safety of Dublin, unless the Irish Government are armed with greater powers. Of course, such a statement coming from the Lord Lieutenant, who has shown himself anxious to keep as long as possible within the limits of the ordinary law, was calculated to produce a great impression on Her Majesty's Government. At the same time, the Chief Secretary for Ireland states in a letter that week after week the danger was obviously increasing; that these bands of Fenians are increasing in number; that private meetings are held; and that there are many places in which there are numerous depots for the store of pikes and other weapons. At these meetings the Fenians hold out hopes, both to civilians and Her Majesty's soldiers, that there will very shortly be an insurrection, and that for three days all that licence which is allowed to soldiers who take part in the capture of a town or fortress will be allowed to the persons joining in the Fenian movement, and that even the women would be given up to their brutal passions. Such statements having been made, according to the
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  information received by Her Majesty's Government, we could not but think that, if we allowed these proceedings to go on, and if we allowed the lives and property of Her Majesty's loyal subjects to be for a moment placed in a state of insecurity, that we should be deeply responsible, however successful in ultimately putting down the insurrection, and that we should deserve the highest censure, if we did not make use of all the means which Parliament might grant for the purpose of suppressing this mischief. The last point on which I have to address your Lordships is as to the applicability of the remedy which the House of Commons has sanctioned, and which it is now my duty to propose that your Lordships should agree to. A great number of these persons who have come from America to Ireland are by origin Irish, but have become citizens of the United States; many of them took part in the late civil war in America, and being disappointed in their expectations that when they became victorious in battle the property of the conquered would be given up to them for general plunder, they have thought they might execute in Ireland those projects of spoliation which they were not allowed to carry out in America. Consequently, the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act will enable the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to lay his hands on these men, who are engaged in the same treasonable correspondence as those who have been convicted by law, but who have hitherto evaded apprehension. These persons have latterly been made additionally cautious and cunning by the arrest and conviction of some of the conspirators, but they are yet pursuing their projects with as much or more activity than ever. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if this Act is passed, will be enabled during the limited period for which it will be in force to retain the persons in prison; and it is to be hoped that by these leaders of insurrection being kept in custody the population will no longer be worked upon, but will be disposed to resume their usual avocations and demeanour. In fact, it has only been by the grossest delusions, and by holding out to these unfortunate people that some great benefit would accrue to them from these treasonable projects, that any impression has been produced. It may be necessary to have this Act in force for a considerable time; but it will, I trust, have the effect of not only preventing the teaching of treasonable lessons to their victims by these

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  mischievous men, but also of deterring many persons who are meditating a journey to Ireland for similar purposes from coming to that country. My Lords, it has been made a kind of reproach that Her Majesty's Government in proposing this Bill propose a scheme of simple coercion, unaccompanied by remedial measures. My Lords, I think that the maintenance of law and order and the restoration of peace in the country—that the assurance that every man shall enjoy the fruits of his industry in security, without the danger of having his property seized and confiscated by rebels—is of itself a remedial measure, and one that is not to be accounted less valuable than any other means of promoting the prosperity of Ireland. With regard to other measures of a remedial character, I do not think that this is the time for entering upon them. There will, no doubt, be many occasions when the state of Ireland may come under the consideration of Parliament, and it may then be a fair question whether or not Her Majesty's Government are adopting all proper means in their power for the improvement of the condition of that country. But the immediate question now before your Lordships is one of the utmost importance, and also one of the utmost urgency; and it appears to me that the first thing we have to do is to secure peace and order in Ireland, and maintain the authority of the Queen. I therefore beg, my Lords, to move in the first place the suspension of the Standing Orders, to enable the measure which I have described to pass without delay.
  Moved, "That Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 be dispensed with."—(Earl Russell.)
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I quite concur in one part of the statement just made by the noble Earl—namely, that this is not the opportunity for considering any other question than the one which is immediately before us. It would be extremely inconvenient to enter at this moment into any discussion whatever upon the state of Ireland, upon the causes which may have led to that state, or upon what possible remedial measures it might be desirable to suggest for the benefit of that country. We have now to deal with a great present necessity. We know from common report—we know from our private correspondence—we know from every means of information which we possess—that Ireland
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  is at the present moment in a most perilous position: we have it from the statements of Her Majesty's Government, who are now holding very different language from that which they used on this subject until very recently, that they are now compelled to apply to Parliament for powers which they thought unnecessary a week or two ago; because, certainly, at the time when this Parliament first met their tone and language were that the ordinary course of law had been appealed to and had been found effectual for the putting down of these dangerous conspiracies. Since then I presume Her Majesty's Government have obtained information from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland that, notwithstanding the manner in which the Judges, juries, and Crown prosecutors of that country have done their duty in the late trials, the ordinary course of law has not proved sufficient to deter these persons from engaging in or continuing their treasonable proeeedings, or to put an end to their malpractices. I do not think, my Lords, that we should call upon Her Majesty's Government now specifically to vindicate the step which they are taking upon their own responsibility. They tell us that the danger is so great and so imminent that it is absolutely necessary not only to suspend the ordinary course of law by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, but that in dealing with this subject there is not even time for passing their Bill in the ordinary manner—that it is imperative upon us now, as it was in 1848—when the noble Earl also had the fortune to be at the head of the Government—to put this Bill through all its stages at once, on the very same day as that on which it has been introduced and also passed through all its stages in the House of Commons. Therefore, my Lords, while giving my cordial assent to the measure proposed by Her Majesty's Government upon their own responsibility as being absolutely indispensable for the maintenance of peace in Ireland, I abstain altogether from entering into the causes which have produced, or which have encouraged, the present disaffected state of that country. But there was one statement made by the noble Earl as to which I would now make a single remark. The noble Earl said that if it had not been for the civil war in America there would have been no such disturbance of the tranquillity of Ireland as this. I do not mean for an instant to deny that the civil war in America, that the military and warlike habits

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  which people have there contracted, that the tendency to indulge in acts of violence and plunder developed during the progress of that sanguinary struggle, or that the consequences of the excitement which that contest has produced in America, may not have given great encouragement to the outbreak of this mischievous spirit in Ireland; but I venture to say, speaking from my own knowledge, that as long ago as 1859 we ascertained that the most dangerous portion of the then called Phœnix conspiracy which prevailed in Ireland was the branch of it which then existed and flourished in America; and from that time down to the present hour there has been no moment at which that conspiracy has not been there organized, and at which it has not been in correspondence with the parties who were desirous of promoting an outbreak in Ireland. I am not now asserting that that spirit has not been properly met in Ireland. I only demur to the statement that this is a spirit of which the origin is entirely new, or that it only dates from the civil war in America, and would not have existed but for that war. My Lords, I do not mean to say a single word more. I think it would be very inconvenient at present to enter into any lengthened discussion. Her Majesty's Government state on their own responsibility that this measure is essential to the maintenance of the peace and to the protection of life and property in Ireland. These they declare to be its primary objects; and if they solemnly announce to both Houses of Parliament that these objects cannot be attained without the suspension of the liberty of the subject, then Salus populi suprema lex; we are bound to accept the necessity that is imposed upon us, and to grant Her Majesty's Government the extraordinary powers for which they ask. Occasions may hereafter arise for calling upon the Government for a fuller justification of this measure, and also for a vindication of the policy which they have pursued in Ireland; but the House of Commons having, in a House of 370 Members, passed this Bill with a protest against its introduction from the insignificant number of only six Members, I hope that your Lordships' House, without even so many as six, or even one dissentient voice, will not hesitate, in the cause of law and order and the security of life and property, to give to Her Majesty's Government that support and those powers which they declare to be essential.
  On Question, Resolved in the Affirmative.
  Standing Orders suspended.
  Then it was moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(Earl Russell.)
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly:—Committee negatived:—Bill read 3a, and passed.
  MESSAGE TO THE COMMONS—To request that House to continue sitting for some time.

  ART BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for facilitating the public Exhibition of Works of Art—Was presented by The Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY; read 1a (No. 15.)

  TELEGRAPH ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Telegraph Act, 1863—Was presented by The Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY; read 1a; and Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered in order to their being dispensed with; and the LORDS SUMMONED. (No. 13.)
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  [It was now about twenty minutes past Five of the clock.]
  House resumed.
  [It was now about half past Eleven of the clock.]

  CATTLE DISEASES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered in order to their being dispensed with; and the LORDS SUMMONED: (The LORD PRESIDENT). (No. 14.)
  MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS—To acquaint this House, That they will continue sitting for some Time as desired by this House.
  About twenty-five minutes before One of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted their Lordships that Her Majesty had issued a Commission to himself and other Lords, commanding them to give her Royal Assent to a Bill which had that day been agreed upon by both Houses, suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus in Ireland.
  The LORD CHANCELLORcommanded the Usher of the Black Rod to signify to the Commons that their attendance is desired in the House of Peers to hear the Commission read.
  And the COMMONS being come with their SPEAKER, and the Commission being read; the Clerk of the Crown read the title of the following Bill—namely, HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND) BILL:—
  And the Clerk of the Parliament signified Her Majesty's Assent to the said Bill.
  House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock A.M., till Monday next, Eleven o'clock.