Lords Sitting of 16 February 1866

MINUTES.
Took the Oath— The Lord Denman.

CATTLE PLAGUE.—REPORT OF DR. SIMONDS.
EARL GRANVILLEread the following letter which he had received from the inspector specially sent down on the part of the Government to make inquiries with reference to the mode of treatment pursued at Baron Rothschild's farm:—
"Veterinary Department of the Privy Council
Office (Inspector's Office), Princes Street,
London, S.W., Feb. 15, 1866.
"Sir,—I have the honour to inform you that, acting on your instructions, I yesterday went down to Mentmore, the seat of Baron Rothschild, for the purpose of investigating the treatment of animals affected with cattle plague, as adopted by Mr. Worms. I found on the premises 118 head of cow-stock divided into several lots, but occupying yards sufficiently contiguous to each other as to afford great facilities for the spread of any infectious disease. Until Friday last, February 9, the whole of the animals had continued in perfect health; but on this day a heifer, one of a lot of twenty-four, gave indications of illness. The veterinary surgeon, Mr. Lepper, of Aylesbury, who was called to the case, recognized some of the earlier symptoms of cattle plague, and as such the animal was placed as soon as possible under the care of Mr. Worms. Notwithstanding all the attention which it received it died on the fourth day of the attack. On Saturday, the 10th instant, two other heifers were also said to be attacked with the plague, and consequently were placed aside by themselves. On Monday one, Tuesday four, and Wednesday (the day of my visit), three more of the herd were removed as being likewise the subjects of the plague. The ten animals were also placed under the care of Mr. Worms, who has

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since superintended all the details of their treatment and general management. The early cases were reported to me as having been cured, and the others as going on most satisfactorily. It required but little knowledge of the diseases of cattle to at once see that none of the ten animals had been, or were, the subjects of any serious disease; and, after giving to each of them a careful examination, I failed to detect the slightest symptom of cattle plague in any one of them, Whether plague will, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, be developed in the herd remains to be seen, but should the opinion of Mr. Lepper be correct as to the cause of the death of the first animal, only a few days can pass without determining the point.—I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant,
"JAMES B. SIMONDS.
"The Clerk of the Council."
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked the noble Earl whether, in connection with this subject, he would consent to lay on the table a copy of a letter which had been published in the newspapers, he apprehended by the authority of the Government, about three weeks after the plague first broke out. It was from the Consul at Warsaw, stating that a disease had broken out in Poland in 1857, such as was represented now to exist in this country, but in no case did it extend itself to any part of the country where the water was impregnated with iron, and that cures had been effected in other parts of the country by giving animals water in iron vessels. He was astonished to find that a letter so remarkable had failed to attract public attention, and that so simple a method of treatment had not been resorted to, at all events, experimentally.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the noble Earl's suggestion should not be forgotten, but did not anticipate any very favourable results from the course of treatment indicated in the letter.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he had met the other day a gentleman who had lost a good many cattle by the plague, and on mentioning the Consul's letter to him he said it was a remarkable fact that an animal which had been in the habit of drinking from an iron vessel was the only animal he had saved.

HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND).—NOTICE.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to sit to-morrow in consequence of the condition of affairs in Ireland. The Lord-Lieutenant, on the advice of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the Chief Secretary, and other persons, has expressed the opinion that it is abso-
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lutely necessary, considering the present state of the country, to ask for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Her Majesty's Government have therefore resolved to make the proposal to suspend the Act, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department will do so to-morrow in the other House of Parliament. When a similar Motion was last made, the Bill was introduced at twelve o'clock on a Saturday, and passed through all its stages in the course of that day. Your Lordships will doubtless agree that, if the necessity for such a course exists, no time should be lost; and I must, therefore, ask your Lordships to put yourselves to the inconvenience of meeting to-morrow at four o'clock, when the matter shall be laid before you.
THE EARL OF DERBY: The proposal made by the noble Earl indicates a very serious state of affairs. Of course, it will be for Her Majesty's Government to justify to this and the other House of Parliament the course proposed; and if the other House should be so satisfied of the gravity of the occasion—and no doubt they will have sufficient evidence laid before them— as shall induce them to consent to take so strong a step as suspending all the Standing Orders for the purpose of passing the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, I am quite sure your Lordships will be unanimously of opinion that in such a state of affairs it would be neither expedient, desirable, nor consistent with your duty to interpose a moment's delay. Therefore, my Lords, as far as I am concerned, if the House of Commons should think fit to suspend all their Standing Orders for the purpose of passing a Bill, which I presume it is the intention of the Government to lay before them during the morning sitting of to-morrow, I should offer no opposition to it when it is laid before your Lordships in company with a statement from Her Majesty's Government, and backed up by the authority of the House of Commons. And when I say I should be prepared to assent to the passing of the Bill under the circumstances, I trust we shall have at the earliest possible opportunity such a statement from Her Majesty's Government as will justify us in having passed so strong a measure as that proposed.

LIFEBOATS ON THE COAST.

  OBSERVATIONS. MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY,in drawing the attention of Her Majesty's Go-

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  vernment to the Deficiency of Lifeboats and other Means of saving human Life on the Coasts of Great Britain and Ireland, desired to state that any observations he might make had no reference to any particular Member of Her Majesty's Government, but to the Government as a whole; and he would express the opinion that it felt less deeply than it should the necessity of providing means for the preservation of human life upon the coast. The present stormy season had produced ample evidence that the means provided were insufficient; and he would particularly direct the attention of the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty (the Duke of Somerset), as well as the President of the Board of Trade, to that statement. It was remarkable that this great maritime country, having the largest Royal and mercantile fleet in the world, should, until a few years ago, have been so deficient in this respect. In 1850 only twelve lifeboats were employed upon the coast of Great Britain. Since then, they had largely increased in number; but in all cases they had been built, kept in repair, and navigated at the expense of private persons. The subscriptions collected from charitable persons by the Royal National Society for this purpose amounted to about £30,000 a year. Of the noble institutions that had been established in this country, none was more noble, or more creditable to the honour of England than this. The Institution, notwithstanding it was supported by voluntary contributions, and received no aid from the State, had done wonders. During the past twenty years, or some similar period, it had been instrumental in saving 15,000 lives. The leading members of the Institution had told him that they would still rather continue to be left to themselves—that they wanted no subsidy, or other assistance from Government, and they believed that a subsidy would diminish their contributions. He (the Earl of Malmesbury) was rather astonished at that statement, because he had always found that when subscriptions were asked for, people were ready to give if certain others would contribute also. But the great question was, whether, with all its zeal and activity, the Institution was capable of fulfilling the duties which it took upon itself. The members believed that it was, and they had such confidence I in it that, quoting the returns of the Coastguard officers, Lloyd's agents, and others, they declared that no part of the
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  coast was unprovided with a lifeboat where one was needed, or there were a sufficient number of resident fishermen and boatmen to justify one being provided. Mr. Lewis, the Secretary of the Institution, had called upon him and left him a map of Great Britain, which showed where lifeboats were stationed, and also indicated where wrecks had taken place. From this chart he found that on a most dangerous part of the coast of Scotland no lifeboat was stationed, and on the west coast of Ireland only one lifeboat was stationed from the north to the south. This conclusively showed, in his opinion, that the Society had not sufficient machinery at its command completely to do the work it proposed to itself. On Sunday last the storm which swept the English Channel was one of the heaviest ever known, the wind blew at a strength of 401b. upon the square inch, while the maximum pressure in Great Britain seldom exceeded 30lbs. or 35lbs. The coast between Poole and the Solent was much exposed, and only one lifeboat was stationed there. Near where he resided, at Christchurch, there were open roadsteads, exposed to southerly and westerly winds. On Sunday, when the storm was at its height, a brig was in danger, some 200 or 300 yards from shore. It was thought no common boat could live in the sea that raged there; but a gallant act was performed by some men in a fishing-boat, who put off and saved four of the crew of seven. The rest died from exhaustion; but every fisherman on the coast was ready to declare, that if succour had reached those men earlier, they would all have been saved. Why, then, was there no lifeboat at Christchurch? He found on referring to the chart that Christchurch had been transplanted to the mouth of the Southampton Water, and if the position assigned to it had only been correct, of course no lifeboat would have been required. He also learnt that the officer of the Coastguard had been asked if there was a sufficient number of boatmen in the neighbourhood to manage a lifeboat, and that his answer was that there were sufficient boatmen, but none who could be depended upon in case of emergency, unless they were remunerated for their services. He also stated that he did not know how an honorary committee could be formed among the neighbouring gentry for the purpose of managing the lifeboat station. He certainly could assert that, as far as he himself was concerned, he had never been asked to

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  join such a committee, and he would assure their Lordships' that, if he had been, he should with pleasure have done what he could to make himself useful. He would, if required, hand in the paper from which he had obtained this information, although he would not mention the name of the Coastguard officer who, with such complete ignorance upon the subject, had yet given such advice to the National Lifeboat Institution as had prevented them from placing a lifeboat at that spot. A coroner's jury had returned a verdict in the case of the men drowned upon the foundering of the brig to which he had alluded, and in that verdict they expressed their opinion that life might have been saved if the Coastguard had rendered the fishermen that assistance which they ought to have done in preparing the boat. He thought that the Government ought to afford assistance in some way or another to this noble Institution. It was not, in his opinion, creditable to this great maritime country that the rescue of our imperilled seamen should be entirely left to the care of private generosity and benevolence. The Government had certainly done a good deal, but in the last and most pressing emergency, they refused to lend a helping hand to those who were carrying on the commerce from which this country derived its wealth and importance, and our seamen were indebted for their rescue solely to this great and noble Institution.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he quite agreed with his noble Friend that the National Lifeboat Institution was one of the noblest of the many noble institutions established by the private benevolence of the country, but he should strongly deprecate any interference with its work, because he believed such interference would only be attended with injury. If the Government undertook to do any part of the work now performed by the National Lifeboat Institution they could not avoid clashing. As the noble Earl had not informed him beforehand of the charge which he intended making against an individual branch of the Coastguard, he had of course been unable to make any inquiries into the circumstances. He could only say that the Coastguard all along our coasts had contributed largely towards saving life and property. In 1864 the value of property saved through their instrumentality amounted to £740,000, and the number of lives saved was 598. In the first three-quarters of last year they
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  had saved 432 lives, and £390,000 worth of property. During the last three months the number of lives and the amount of property saved was proportionately still larger. If there was any case in which the Coastguard had not done their duty it must be an exceptional one. They were constantly ready to risk their own lives in the hope of rescuing the property and the lives of others. But it was not correct that the National Lifeboat Institution was not in any way assisted by the Government. The Board of Trade allowed £18 to each lifeboat when they wore reported well manned and ready for cases of emergency. What the National Lifeboat Institution did was to place a lifeboat on those parts of the coast where they found the fishermen ready to drill and be trained, and offers of boats had been made to the National Lifeboat Institution which they were as yet unable to accept, because they could not find the men to undertake their management. He had no doubt that if the Government were to take upon themselves that duty their interference would be destructive of the National Lifeboat Institution; and he would remind their Lordships that the Society had excited so much admiration in France that the French Government had given their countenance to the establishment in their own country of one of a precisely similar character. The founders of that French institution had applied to their Government for assistance; but the Emperor, with that sagacity which distinguished him, had refused to accede to that application, and had stated that he would not in that matter interfere with the generous and benevolent action of his people. He admitted the excellence of the boats possessed by the Institution, and he had had some of them copied and sent to the West Coast of Africa, where they were of great advantage in landing through the surf. With regard to the rocket stations, he had to observe that they were furnished at the expense of the Government, that those stations at present amounted to about 250, and that last year they had been instrumental in saving 180 lives. He repeated that he did not think it would be wise on the part of the Government to interfere further than they had done in assisting the National Lifeboat Institution. During the past year the boats of that Institution had saved 500 lives, besides giving rewards to the owners of shore and fishing boats who had saved 200 more. Under these

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  circumstances, he thought it would be bad policy not to leave the action of the Institution uncontrolled.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he was anxious that he should not be misunderstood in reference to the Coastguard. He had referred to the report of an inquest in a particular case which had appeared in the public newspapers. The noble Duke might be right in assuming that any interference on the part of Government might do more harm than good, but that did not alter the fact that there was a deficiency in the number of lifeboats on our coast—a fact that was amply proved by the constant endeavours to increase their number. In the case of Christchurch, to which he had referred, the lifeboat, which was offered, but refused, might have saved lives last Sunday.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he believed the National Lifeboat Institution were ready to give the most favourable consideration to any application that might be made to them for the supply of a lifeboat; but it was necessary, before a lifeboat was stationed at a place, that it should be shown that it could be advantageously employed, and that there were a sufficient number of persons willing to come forward to form a committee. Had this been the case at Christchurch a lifeboat would doubtless have been stationed at that place, although it would not have been of much use, as wrecks off that coast were very rare, it being only frequented by small coasters. With regard to the statement which had been made that the Government did not contribute in any way towards saving the lives of our sailors, he felt bound to say that Government defrayed the whole expense of the rocket stations, which were worked by the Coastguard. That body, however, had other duties to perform, from which it would not do to take them away in order to attach them to the Lifeboat Institution—especially as the efficiency of the Institution was more likely to be preserved when under the management of private persons whose local interests induced them to give a zealous watchfulness over the efficiency of the service, than when left to the services of Government officers who might have other duties to perform. He, therefore, thought it would be better for the matter to be left in the hands of those who had so efficiently managed the affairs of the Institution up to the present time. The Institution had attracted the attention of the Emperor of
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  the French, who had requested the association to supply him with eleven boats for the use of the coast of France; but he had distinctly expressed his objection to their being placed under the control of the French Admiralty, preferring that they should be managed as they were in England by private enterprize. He should, therefore, advise the Government not to interfere further in the matter.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYrepeated that the main reason why no lifeboat was stationed at Christchurch was that the Coastguard officers there declared that it was not wanted, and that there was He local committee ready to look after the undertaking. He had again to express his belief that the latter statement was unfounded.

PUBLIC LOAN ACTS.

  TREASURY MINUTE 1859. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF POWISrose to call the attention of the First Lord of the Treasury to the impediment to the beneficial working of the Public Loan Acts caused by the Treasury Minute of 1859, declining any future reduction of interest below 5 per cent. The noble Earl said that there were two kinds of loans to which the Treasury Minute of 1859 applied—one being loans to private individuals or companies, and the other to public bodies on the security of county and borough rates. Now, the Government might occasionally sustain losses from the want of sufficient security in the former case, and there was, perhaps, nothing unreasonable in their covering the risk which they incurred by charging as high an interest as 5 per cent; but there could be no danger of their not being repaid for the advances which they made on the security of public rates, and it appeared to him that they might in that instance reduce their terms to 3½ or 4 per cent, or the rate of interest paid on Exchequer Bills for the time being. When the new Poor Law was passed in England, it led to numerous loans for the purpose of building workhouses, in all of which the Treasury reduced the rate of interest below 5 per cent. In this way £5,000 was advanced to the parish of Paddington, and £50,000 to the City of London Union. In the case of Ireland, when the Poor Law was introduced the Treasury went farther, for they granted loans, to be repaid out of the poor rate, on which no interest was to be charged for the first ten years after the buildings

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  were fit for the reception of inmates. That, however, was an exceptional case, and he did not wish them to do anything of the sort, but merely to go back to the old practice of making such a rate only as would secure them against loss. To show the extent to which the Exchequer Loan Commissioners had granted loans, he found that between the years 1817 and 1843 they amounted to £8,670,000, the entire loss upon which, from insufficient security, was £300,000. From 1843 to 1852 the sum of £4,000,000 was advanced in a similar manner. As regarded counties, these loans were obtained chiefly for the construction of bridges, which were now thrown on the county rate, and for the gaols and lunatic asylums. In parishes they were sought principally for the construction of workhouses, and in towns for providing burial grounds, the erection of baths and wash houses, waterworks, and various other works of local improvement. There was a note to the Return he had just quoted (which was a Return made to the House of Commons in 1854), which stated that the cost to the country of the loans so made averaged 3 per cent, and as the loans were made at 3½and 4 per cent, or Exchequer Bill interest, the Government had not incurred any loss. It further said that on the loans in Great Britain the profits were beyond the losses by bad debts. He was not asking for any eleemosynary grant. All public bodies would rather borrow money of the Public Loans Commissioners than from any private source, because they could repay it by instalments—an arrangement which was not liked by the private lender, who, when his money was returned in so fragmentary a manner, would have continually to be making new investments, and be put to new expenses. By the Treasury Minute of 1859, it was announced that no further advances could be made at a lower rate of interest than 5 per cent, and for this step various reasons were assigned, which in his opinion were wholly insufficient to justify the Government in making the change, and were rather those of an usurious money-lender than those of the Government of a great nation. Many burdens were now thrown by the Legislature upon the land, to the exclusion of any other kind of property, and they had, therefore, a right to every assistance the Government could give them without cost or risk to the country, and thus enable them to bear those burdens. What he
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  complained of was that a practice which had been of such value to the country should be abrogated, not on any sound reason, or on account of any loss to the State, but because the Treasury thought fit to issue a Minute on the subject. He had not thought fit to make any Motion on the subject, but would be content to bring it under the notice of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, who, he trusted, would cause the Minute of 1859 to be reconsidered.
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, there could be no doubt but that the advances made by the Public Loans Commissioners was a great advantage to the borrowers; but the noble Earl (the Earl of Powis) found fault with the change made in the rate of interest by the Treasury Minute of 1859. By a recent Act of Parliament the Treasury were empowered to lay down in their discretion rules under which loans were to be made. In 1856 they made a rule that the rate of interest should vary with the common rate of interest in the market; but it was obvious that if there was justice in this arrangement there was uncertainty and inconvenience. The Loan Commissioners were not in the position of ordinary moneylenders, and if persons could obtain money at a cheaper rate they would not go to the Commissioners. What the Treasury decided in 1859 was that the rate of interest should be fixed at 5 per cent, which was neither very high nor very low, and fair to all parties. Certain exceptions had, however, been made under the Act of Parliament. In laying down that rule the Treasury had acted wisely, and he was not disposed to make any alteration.
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, that these loans, though nominally loans of money, are in reality advances of the capital of the country; and what the Government did was to interpose its character and credit under the authority of an Act of Parliament. By this operation the capital was withdrawn from its natural and therefore legitimate channels of useful employment, and grave doubts may be fairly entertained whether the Government was justified in interposing in this way. With regard to the rate of interest, he thought that that should be fixed rather above than below the market rate. The noble Earl who introduced this subject complained that in 1859 a regulation was made prohibiting the advance of public money at a lower rate of interest than 5 per cent. It was remarkable that since that period there

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  had been a constant tendency in the rate of interest to rise, and he was surprised that the present moment should be taken to recommend the loan of Government money at a lower rate. It was well known that in consequence of recent legislation speculation had been greatly stimulated, a result which he had from the first anticipated, and the country was committed to undertakings which involved a far larger amount of capital than it could command, and the rate of interest in the City had been for some months 3 per cent higher than the continental markets. This country used to supply capital to all the markets in the world: but the case is now reversed, and this country is now compelled to seek capital from other countries by the high rate of 8 per cent interest; yet this was the moment taken to urge the Government to interpose its credit to divert the capital from all private concerns to support those public works. If the Government was called upon to find capital for the construction of public works, surely justice, reason, and policy pointed out that they should not lend it at a lower rate than the market value.

CATTLE DISEASES BILL.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF AIRLIE,who had given notice of his intention to ask the Government Whether, in the event of the Cattle Diseases Bill coming up to the Lords before the 17th instant, they intended to proceed with it on that day, said, that when he gave that notice he thought it possible that the Bill might reach their Lordships' House earlier than it was now likely to do; but he would take the present opportunity of stating that several noble Lords on both sides of the House were of opinion that the Bill should be passed as quickly as possible.
LORD DENMANsaid, that as their Lordships were to have an imperfect Bill, which could not be altered in their House, he wished, as he had attended important meetings both yesterday and to-day, at which complaint was made of ignorant persons insisting upon visiting diseased cattle in spite of all remonstrances, that some clause might be added to the Bill, to render persons liable to punishment who entered infected farms. He had himself warned off three packs of hounds which were kept separate and at large on different farms, and he had told those who were with them that they would be chargeable with malicious trespass if they persisted
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in hunting after notice, but he was very anxious that a stop might be put to all unnecessary danger of infection.
LORD DUNSANYasked whether the Government had received information that any cattle had been smuggled into Ireland from Scotland; and, if so, what precautions had been taken to prevent it; also, if it was the case that an Order in Council had lately been issued permitting the importation of the skin of sheep or lambs under certain conditions into Ireland. If such were the case it was desirable that the fact should be generally known, in order that the people of Ireland might be put on their guard against the purchase of cattle under such circumstances.
EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say that 126 sheep had been imported from Scotland into Ireland in the month of October last; that the importation was contrary to law, and that the parties perpetrating the offence would be prosecuted. It had not come to the knowledge of the Government that the attempt had been repeated. It was true that an Order in Council of the character of that to which the noble Earl referred had been issued.
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till to-morrow Four o'clock.