Lords Sitting of 9 February 1866

MINUTES.
Several Lords took the Oath.

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
The Lord Chancellor The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had prepared and laid it on the Table.
The same was Ordered to be printed. (No. 3.)

HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
HER MAJESTY'S Answer to the Address, reported as follows:—
"My Lords,
"I THANK you for your loyal and dutiful Address, and for the renewed Assurance of your affectionate Interest in every Event which tends to increase the domestic Happiness of Myself and My Family.
"I FEEL confident that the various Measures, which will be submitted to you, to improve the Law and promote the Welfare of My People, will receive your earnest and careful Consideration."

IRELAND—PAY OF THE CONSTABULARY.—QUESTION.
In reply to a Question of The Earl of LEITRIM,
EARL RUSSELLsaid, that there had been no Royal Commission inquiring into the subject of the Irish police; but, as a question

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was raised a short time ago with reference to the pay and emoluments of the police in Ireland, an official inquiry had been instituted, with directions to report what means, if any, could be devised for the greater efficiency of the police.
THE EARL OF LEITRIMasked if the noble Earl would have any objection to lay the papers relating to the inquiry before their Lordships?
EARL RUSSELLsaid, he could not undertake to produce the documents relating to the inquiry, inasmuch as they were of a confidential character; but the results of the inquiry would be laid before Parliament.

THE CATTLE PLAGUE.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF GRANARDasked, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce the Bill carrying out the recommendations of the Dublin Commission, respecting measures for the prevention or localization of the cattle plague, or at least so much of them as had not already been embodied in the Orders of Council? The recommendations to which he referred were as follows:—
"That the owners of cattle should, in an infected district, be compensated out of an union poor rate of the union in which the infected district was situate, compensation in no case to exceed two-thirds of the value of the animal, or to amount to more than £12; that when that rate exceeded 6d. in the pound on the valuation of the union in such cases the Government should sanction a rate-in-aid to be charged equally on all the Unions in Ireland. That the constabulary should make a census of the cattle in each union, and that claims for compensation should be determined by the justices at petty sessions, upon whose certificate the clerk of the union would be empowered to pay the amount of compensation allowed at such sessions."
These recommendations, he believed, had met with general approval in Ireland, and not only required no interference on the part of the central authorities but could be put in force by means of machinery which was already in existence.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the recommendations of the Dublin Commission were already in the hands of the Irish Law Officers, with a view to see how far these recommendations could be made the subject of a Bill.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD presented petitions from the Chamber of Agriculture and Scottish Farmers' Club and others praying that their Lordships
"Would be pleased, by Act of Parliament, to atop the removal of all cattle from one place in
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Great Britain to another for a limited time, with the exception perhaps of fat cattle, sent, under stringent regulations, to slaughter—and, in connection therewith, to enact further, that all animals labouring under the disease shall be immediately slaughtered and buried in the skin—the owners thereof being compensated to the extent of one-half the value thereof out of the national purse, or from such other source as the wisdom of Parliament may devise; that all cattle which have come in contact with diseased animals, or which have been in the same enclosure with them, though yet showing no symptoms of the disease, shall also be immediately slaughtered on the premises, the offals to be disinfected and buried, the hides to be disinfected and sold, and the carcases also, when duly certified by the inspector as fit for human food, to be sold for the benefit of the owners—one-half of the loss thereon to the owner, to be compensated, in like manner, out of the public purse, or otherwise as aforesaid; that full advantage be taken of this compulsory stoppage of transit of cattle in order that Parliament may carry out such sanitary measures as shall extinguish effectually all germs of the disease in every district in which it has appeared, so as, if possible, to prevent their development on the removal of the interdict; and in particular, that the whole premises occupied by diseased animals, or by animals which have come in contact, or been in the same enclosure, shed, or byre with diseased animals, shall be thoroughly cleansed and disinfected, and the manure, litter, and fodder, taken therefrom, also disinfected or burnt at the occupiers' expense—that, during the prevalence of the disease, all dogs, not under proper control, shall be liable to be destroyed if found off the owner's premises; that all local authorities shall see the provisions of the Act observed, and the penalties for the infringement thereof strictly enforced, and that every person offending against such enactments shall, for every offence, forfeit a sum not exceeding £20, which the Judge, before whom such person shall be convicted of such offence, may determine."
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, that there had been a correspondence at the Foreign Office with respect to the system employed by two Belgian practitioners for the cure of the cattle plague, and inquired if the Government would lay that correspondence on the table.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had not had time to read all the correspondence, but he believed there was no objection to lay it on the table. With regard to those practitioners, they refused to appear before the Royal Commissioners, and the homoeopathic treatment having been tried in this country, and having been found to be no more satisfactory than what had been done by other practitioners, that refusal did not appear to be of much importance.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he had been informed by good authority in Brussels that the report disparaging the treatment of the two practitioners to whom he had alluded was drawn up by certain veterinary officers

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employed by the Belgian Government who were strongly opposed to homoeopathy. He regretted, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government had published that report in this country. To say that the treatment pursued in Norfolk was the homoeopathic treatment was not correct. The treatment of the plague by the practitioners in Belgium had some of the features of homoeopathy, but was quite different from the homoeopathic treatment which had been adopted in this country. He thought the Government was wrong in throwing cold water on experiments made with a view to cure this destructive disease.
EARL SPENCERsaid, he had been mixed up in the matter, and therefore rose to corroborate the statement of the noble Earl the President of the Council, that these gentlemen had refused to be examined before the Royal Commission, although the Commissioners were ready to examine their mode of treatment. He had subsequently received a letter from our Minister at Brussels suggesting that these gentlemen should he again brought over to this country; and his reply was that if they would come over to this country, and would consent to be examined by the Royal Commission, not only would their expenses be paid, but they would be handsomely rewarded for every animal they cured. This offer was declined. He believed that the Dutch Government had expressed an opinion that the treatment adopted in that country was not successful.

ABYSSINIA—IMPRISONMENT OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CHELMSFORD,in rising to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for the latest Information he has received as to the Condition of Consul Cameron and other Persons in Abyssinia; what progress Mr. Rassam has made in his Mission; and whether any and what Efforts have been made in addition to Mr. Rassam's Mission to procure the Liberation of the Prisoners, said: My Lords, I need not apologize for taking so early an opportunity of calling the attention of the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to a subject which should be interesting to everyone who has the honour and dignity of his country at heart, and who can feel sympathy for the sufferings of his fellow-creatures. It is now more than two years since a British Consul accredited to the Government of
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  Abyssinia was thrown by the Emperor of Abyssinia into prison, loaded with chains, and subjected to the most cruel treatment. This long interval of his imprisonment has been filled up by a sad event, the death of his mother, which was greatly hastened by her grief and anxiety as to the fate of her son. My Lords, there was a time when the mere statement of such an indignity being offered to one in our Consular service would have roused the indignation of the people throughout the country; but it appears we are learning gradually to bear these outrages on our fellow-countrymen, in foreign countries, with patience and submission. The first occasion on which this subject was called to my notice was in the beginning of last year, when some friends of the Consul applied to me to bring the matter before this House, stating their opinion to be that the original imprisonment of their relation was entirely attributable to the fault of the Foreign Office, and that the prolongation of his sufferings was to be ascribed to the injudicious course afterwards adopted by that office. My Lords, I was reluctant for some time to bring forward such a charge, as I felt it impossible for me to do so without first obtaining all the information that could be desired from the papers in the hands of Government. I therefore applied to the noble Earl at the head of the Government, who was then the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to know whether he would grant me these papers, and I must say that the noble Earl then endeavoured, in every possible way, to deter me from bringing the matter forward. He warned me that if I attempted to agitate the question I should be answerable for the increased sufferings to which the unfortunate captives might be subjected. My Lords, with this heavy responsibility thrown upon me, I felt it to be my duty carefully to select such papers as would furnish me with all the necessary information, but which, at the same time, could not contain anything that could prejudicially affect Mr. Cameron. My Lords, the noble Earl, to my great surprise, still refused to grant me those papers without the consent of the House, and I was therefore compelled to trouble your Lordships with a Motion on the subject. Upon the discussion which took place upon that Motion, the noble Earl repeated his assertions that my interference in the matter, and my application for these documents, were calculated to increase the sufferings which had been

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  inflicted upon these unhappy prisoners. My Lords, I entreated the noble Earl to tell me which of all the papers I had specified would be productive of that effect, and I received from him a most singular answer—namely, that he did not say that the production of any one of the papers would be likely to aggravate the sufferings of the prisoners, but that the production of all of them, taken together, and the comments likely to be made upon them in the newspapers would have that effect. The noble Earl resisted to the last my application for these documents; I was compelled to divide the House on the question for their production, and by a bare majority I succeeded in obtaining them. I examined the papers carefully, and I am of opinion that they fully justify the friends of the Consul in the opinion that his original imprisonment was attributable mainly to the fault of the Foreign Office, and that they had taken a most injudicious course to obtain his release. I therefore felt it my duty to bring the question before the House. On that occasion the noble Earl said that
  "I had then, as on a former occasion, shown myself entirely regardless of the safety of Consul Cameron and the other persons imprisoned by the Emperor of Abyssinia if I could only throw blame on the Government."
  My Lords, this is a very serious charge, and I trust the House will believe me when I utterly deny that there is the slightest foundation for it. I felt for the unhappy captives most deeply. Indeed, it was impossible that anybody could receive the statement of what these prisoners had to endure with the indifference imputed to me by the noble Earl; and, considering that the relations of the Consul felt they had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government, a complaint which I thought was justified by the papers before me, I saw no reason why I should shrink from the duty I had undertaken of calling your Lordships' attention to them. I think upon that occasion the noble Earl might have been better employed in showing that the judgment I had formed on these papers was not well-founded than in attributing motives to me, of which, if they had existed, he must have been entirely ignorant. I shall not, on the present occasion, trouble your Lordships with a repetition of the sad history of the sufferings of these unfortunate prisoners, but will confine myself to the proof, as it appears to me, that all which has happened to them is to be ascribed, shall I say to the neglect or
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  want of judgment—I know not how to characterize it—of the Foreign Office; and that having been the original cause of those sufferings, the course taken is one which has proved, as might have been expected, an utter failure. When speaking of the Foreign Office your Lordships will understand that the noble Earl now Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (the Earl of Clarendon) is not answerable for any of these transactions. When they occurred the noble Earl was, I believe, not even a Member of the Government; he has only held the seals of the Foreign Office for a very short time. As I have always said, the whole of the misery which these prisoners have so long suffered, and which they are now suffering, is attributable to the fact of the Foreign Office having neglected to answer a letter which was sent by the Emperor of Abyssinia to this country, requesting that there might be mutual embassies between the two countries upon the footing of the Treaty of 1849, which was ratified and laid before Parliament. Consul Cameron in 1863 was upon the very best terms with the Emperor, and the Emperor thought it was a fit occasion to renew a project which he had long in view of cementing the friendly alliance between the two countries, and accordingly he sent the letter to the Queen to which I have already alluded, and which arrived in this country in February, 1863. That letter was unnoticed until the month of June, 1864—sixteen months afterwards. Upon the occasion of one of the discussions that took place on this unfortunate subject, the noble Earl (Earl Russell) said—may I say in a fit of unwonted candour?—he must admit there was some delay in answering this letter; but when I originally charged this delay upon the noble Earl, he rather smiled at my simplicity in supposing that a letter of that sort could be so easily answered. I will not, though encouraged by the noble Earl, do so much injustice to the united wisdom of the Cabinet as to imagine that a letter of any kind could take sixteen months to consider. I am rather disposed to think that the way in which the affairs of Europe and America were then pressing on the noble Earl occasioned him entirely to overlook a circumstance of such comparative insignificance as the indignities offered to a British Consul by a Sovereign to whom he was accredited. But be that as it may, it unfortunately occurred that the Emperor, about November, 1863, had his feelings

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  strongly excited against two missionaries who were in Abyssinia, and they were imprisoned. I do not mean at all to enter into their case; I shall confine myself entirely to that of the Consul. The Emperor had been in a state of great excitement because the letter he had written a year before had received no attention whatever. He was incensed at the slight and affront offered to him; he let loose his feelings on the Consul, and caused him to be imprisoned. Now, I say, as far as these facts go, that I am entirely warranted in the judgment at which I arrived, carefully weighing and considering all the circumstances, that the original cause of the Consul's imprisonment was the omission to answer the Emperor's letter. But the Foreign Office was aware in the month of June, 1864, of the consequences of this unfortunate omission, and the important practical question now is, in what manner they Bet about to repair the mischief that had been caused. I have always maintained this—that under the circumstances in which the prisoners were placed, and with the irritated and excited feelings of the Sovereign, it would be necessary that a mission should be despatched from this country, at the head of which an Englishman of some mark should have been placed, and that he should not have gone empty-handed, but charged with presents, the customary mode of approaching Oriental princes. When I suggested this on a former occasion, the noble Earl said that the notion of sending presents to the Abyssinian Sovereign was absurd, and it would only be an inducement to him to believe that the best way of insuring respect and consideration was to imprison a British Consul. I did not think that a very good answer, but I was obliged to accept it at the time. Will it be believed that since it was given the person who has been employed in the mission has been charged with very considerable presents, which he was intrusted to deliver if he were permitted to approach the monarch? Instead of sending a subject of this country at the head of the mission, the Foreign Office, most unfortunately, as I think, selected for this office a Mr. Rassam, who was the Assistant to the Political Agent at Aden—a man I have no doubt of very considerable ability, who had, I believe, assisted Mr. Layard, the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in his interesting excavations at Nineveh; but to whom there was this most decided objection—even if he had ten times his ability
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  and all the diplomatic skill any man ever possessed—he was an Asiatic, and for that very reason just the person who ought not to have been selected. Am I justified in the anticipations I formed at the time, that this was an unfortunate selection? Mr. Rassam arrived at Massowah in August, 1864, and he has never yet been permitted to approach the Emperor. Shortly after his arrival the Emperor, curious to know what sort of mission had been sent from England, despatched two of his subjects to Massowah, to examine and inspect, and there they found Mr. Rassam alone, with no presents. I believe an English medical man had accompanied him, but he had gone on leave of absence, and had left Mr. Rassam alone. The emissaries immediately returned with an account which certainly did not induce the Emperor of Abyssinia to respect the mission. If the Government had been driven to this selection, if there had been no one else to appoint to this mission but Mr. Rassam, of course that would be an answer to all objection; but various applications were made to the Foreign Office for permission to go out on this particular mission. Among others, there was one from a distinguished military officer who had been engaged on very delicate diplomatic missions in the East—Sir William Coghlan. There were also other persons I might mention; but I think it quite sufficient to say that the selection made was not likely to be palatable to the Sovereign of Abyssina, nor to meet with his approbation. The Government, however, persisted in the selection of Mr. Rassam, and the consequence has been the failure of the mission up to this time, and from the last accounts received of the unfortunate prisoners it appears that they were still chained hand and foot. Whether there have been any occasional remissions in the severity of their confinement, I am not aware; but this was the account received respecting them down to so late a date as November last. I wish to know particularly what the Foreign Office has done for the purpose of supplying the deficiencies in the mission which they intrusted to Mr. Rassam. I understand that Mr. Palgrave has been sent out; but by the last accounts from him he had been at Cairo on six weeks' leave of absence, being satisfied that his services were not required to assist Mr. Rassam. With respect to Mr. Rassam, he has applied to the Emperor for a safe conduct, which he had not yet obtained. The Em-

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  peror of Abyssinia had gone on an expedition against rebels; therefore, many weeks or months must elapse before the safe conduct could be used, if ever it were sent at all. Now, I trust I have fairly stated the grounds on which I feel the deepest interest relative to this matter. I am most anxious to know what are the latest accounts relative to the condition of these unfortunate captives—for Consul Cameron is not the only captive—and whether Mr. Rassam has made any and what progress in his mission? I wish also more particularly to know whether any further effort has been made, beyond the mission of Mr. Rassam, from which we may indulge a hope of the liberation of these unfortunate prisoners at no distant day?
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I felt no surprise whatever that the noble and learned Lord, after the deep interest he has taken in the fate of these unfortunate men, should have, on the very first day of the Session, given notice of his desire to receive full information respecting the condition of these unfortunate men. He says very justly that the deep interest he feels is shared by a great many persons—we are all concerned for what has taken place; but I cannot help regretting the acrimony of the noble and learned Lord's tone, which I think uncalled for, and calculated to effect no benefit. The fact is, that up to this moment we do not know the real cause of Consul Cameron's detention. The noble Lord said it was on account of a letter not being answered in proper time, and we know that Captain Cameron has said that until the letter has received a civil answer he will not be liberated; and we know also that the missionaries and others have said that the cause of his detention is an alteration in the policy of this country towards Abyssinia. Now, though I admit there may have been delay on the part of the Foreign Office in answering the letter, the fact is that no great importance was attached to the letter, because the only essential part of it had been already answered by my noble Friend behind me (Earl Russell), who said that, before the Government could agree to certain things desired by the Emperor of Abyssinia, he must desist from the scheme of conquering provinces, and must ratify the treaty agreed to by his predecessor. The Emperor's answer was that he would not give up his schemes of conquest, and would not ratify the treaty.
  THE EARL OF DERBYobserved, that
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  the treaty had already been ratified by one of his predecessors, and there was no occasion for the present Emperor of Abyssinia to agree to it, as it was in force.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: It was not in force if the Emperor would not give force to it. Consul Cameron was directed to return to Massowah which were the head-quarters of his consulate, and to remain there until further orders. Unfortunately, Consul Cameron did not obey these instructions, or the instruction of the Emperor, but remained in Abyssinia; and it was to this his not having proceeded to Massowah as directed that all this distress and suffering have occurred. We know that the bearer of a letter from the Emperor of the French was thrown into chains because the letter was signed by M. Drouyn de Lhuys and not by the Emperor of the French. Our object was to prevent intermeddling in the affairs of the country, and when we found that Consul Cameron was mixed up with them a letter was written to him telling him to return to Massowah, and there to attend to his duties. This letter fell into the hands of the Emperor of Abyssinia, and, it is said, unfortunately caused the sufferings of the prisoners to be increased. The first we heard, not of the imprisonment, but of the detention of Consul Cameron, came by rumour through Egypt. It was, then, to be considered in what manner we should proceed—whether by force or negotiation, in order to effect the liberation of the prisoners. Now, to attempt to send an army across that deadly plain which separates Abyssinia from the sea, and to penetrate into the interior of the country through mountain passes and difficulties unknown, without any basis of operations or means of obtaining supplies, would have been a vain and idle endeavour. In such case the Emperor would have carried his prisoners further into the interior, or would have massacred them, while we should have sacrificed many thousand lives. Next came the question how should an attempt be made to attain the desired object by negotiation. The noble and learned Lord says that if he had been responsible for the matter he would have sent out an important mission, headed by a man of rank. Now I think that if he had been responsible he would have done no such thing, for it is likely that the members of that mission would have shared the same fate as Consul Cameron. We have evidence for believing that the Emperor of Abyssinia supposed that by

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  keeping these men prisoners he would coerce the British Government into his policy. Therefore, I think that every man belonging to such a mission as the noble Lord suggested would have been thrown into chains; and I need not say how much the difficulties of the case would have been aggravated by such an event. That Consul Cameron had fallen into a state of captivity was his own fault; but if the Queen had sent from this country an important mission, and if all the members of it had been thrown into chains, it would then have been necessary to adopt every measure to obtain their release, or the prestige of England would have been at an end throughout the East. When, therefore, in the case of the present prisoners we had to decide on the selection of an efficient agent, our choice fell on Mr. Rassam. I am at a loss to account for the hostility which the noble and learned Lord has now, and in the previous Session, displayed towards Mr. Rassam.
  LORD CHELMSFORD: I have invariably said that I had no doubt Mr. Rassam was a man of very great ability. My only objection to his appointment was—and I considered it a conclusive objection—that he was not a European.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: The noble and learned Lord may have said that, but he has also always contended that he was an unfit person to be sent out on his present mission.
  LORD CHELMSFORD: Only on that ground.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: Only on that ground ! The noble and learned Lord could have said nothing more decisive—such language, I maintain, calculated to lead the Emperor of Abyssinia, if his words reached him, to think that to send Mr. Rassam on this mission was an insult towards him on the part of this country. The noble and learned Lord and the press have thus, I am sorry to say, done their best to second the failure of that mission. One would suppose, too, from what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord, that Sir William Coghlan shared with him the opinion that Mr. Rassam was not a proper person to select, but I will read to the House what it is that Sir William Coghlan really thinks of that gentleman. He says—
  "Mr. Rassam's antecedents, his status, and his qualifications are greatly misunderstood and misrepresented by a portion of the press of this country. He has been variously styled Levantine,
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  Greek, obscure Armenian, Turkish subject, nondescript, &c. In answer to these assertions it is but just to a very deserving public servant to say what Mr. Rassam really is. He was born at Mossul, of Christian parents (his brother is British Vice Consul there), he received his education in England, he is a gentleman in manners and conduct, and his qualifications for the peculiar line in which he has been employed during the last ten years cannot be surpassed. I speak with confidence on this point, for Mr. Rassam was my assistant at Aden during many years of trouble; a part of that time he held charge of our political relations at Muscat, and acquitted himself to the entire approval of the Government which placed him there. In short, Mr. Rassam's whole previous career well justified the expectation which Her Majesty's Government entertained in appointing him to the delicate and difficult mission on which he is now employed. The disappointment of that expectation is not attributable to any fault of his."
  I think your Lordships will scarcely, after that statement of Sir William Coghlan, be of opinion that Mr. Rassam was not a proper person to send on this mission. Besides, he was at Aden, near the spot, and much delay was obviated by his appointment. He was therefore ordered to go in charge of a letter from the Queen, and requested to put himself in communication with the Emperor of Abyssinia, and to ask for a safe-conduct. It was deemed necessary that he should do this; because if, being the bearer of a letter from Her Majesty, he happened to be put in chains and thrown into prison, an additional insult would be offered to this country. He, moreover, managed to place himself in communication with Consul Cameron, and was warned by him not to enter the Emperor's dominions unless he had a safe-conduct. This he succeeded in getting; but the document was of a somewhat suspicious character, inasmuch as it was not signed by the Emperor himself. He was, however, advised by Consul Cameron to accept it. Considerable delay took place in Mr. Rassam's departure for the interior while he waited for answers to the letters which he had written to the Emperor. The public at home became very anxious on the subject, and my noble Friend (Earl Russell) did accept the offer of Mr. Pal-grave, who was, however, informed that his mission was not to interfere with that of Mr. Rassam. It was afterwards represented that the Emperor might feel insulted if the two missions were to go out at the idea of having what he might suppose to be an inferior person, not the bearer of a letter from the Queen, sent into his dominions, and it was decided that

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  Mr. Rassam should proceed on his mission. I can assure the noble and learned Lord that Her Majesty's Government are as anxious as to the result of that mission as he can possibly be, and since he gave notice of putting a Question on the subject on the first night of the Session, I have received letters relating to it which I shall be glad to read to the House, although, I am sorry to say, they do not contain proofs of the deliverance of the prisoners. The first is from Colonel Merewether, and is dated Aden, January 21. It is as follows:—
  "The Victoria returned from Massowah this morning, bringing news from Rassam up to the 8th of November, and from Cameron to the 28th of September. I enclose copies of Cameron's letters to Rassam; also one from Mr. Stern to Rassam. These letters from the prisoners were received by M. Munzengen on the 16th of December. The delay on the road was caused by the messengers being afraid of the cholera, which they were told was raging at Massowah. M. Munzengen adds that he had received no news direct from the prisoners later than the 28th of September. It was said that King Theodore had come to Godjan, and M. Munzengen thought the news was authentic. When the King had come so much nearer to Metemneh, Mr. Rassam could not delay to enter into communication with him, and M. Munzengen felt sure that decisive news would very shortly be received. It was given out that the King was taking the prisoners with him, but that required confirmation. Rassam will have told you all about his own progress in his letter to you. M. Munzengen reports that Rassam left Kasala on the 9th of November, and was expected to reach Metemneh by the 20th. Long ere this I hope he has had an interview with the King and effected the release of the captives. Dr. Beke arrived here on the 10th, and, as the Victoria was proceeding to Massowah on the 11th, I gave him and an Abyssinian priest he had with him a passage in her. Some of his stores had not arrived here yet, and he cannot go up country without them, he told me; so I hope before they reach him we shall hear of Rassam's complete success, so as to render any further attempts of Dr. Beke's unnecessary."
  The next is from Mr. Rassam himself. Mr. Rassam, writing from Kasala on the 8th of November, says—
  "The head cameleer, who has been ordered to get camels for me by the Governor, hopes that we shall start this afternoon, or at the latest early to-morrow morning; if so, I hope to be at Metemneh on or about the 20th instant, five days later than I calculated upon when I left Massowah, as I did not expect to have had so much difficulty in obtaining camels.…You may get this letter about Christmas time, when I hope to be enjoying myself with His Majesty of Ethiopia. [This letter was received on the 7th of February.] I trust that I shall yet succeed in accomplishing what is required of me, and I have not the least doubt of that end through the good wishes of my friends."
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  The next letter which I shall quote is from Mr. Cameron to Mr. Rassam, and is dated from Magdala Prison, Abyssinia, September 18, 1865. It says—
  "We have had some trouble in getting comfortably through the winter, owing to the difficulty of getting provisions, but there has been no one ill except Rosenthal, who has been shut in for about ten days with neuralgia and sore eyes. I am stronger and better than I have ever been since leaving England. Please God, all may end well. Pray send the two accompanying letters to England, and God bless you, my brave Rassam, and grant that we may leave this horrid country together."
  Although, therefore, I cannot communicate to your Lordships the gratifying news that these prisoners have been set at liberty, it is still some satisfaction to know that they are in better health than could have been anticipated. I think the policy which has been pursued by Her Majesty's Government in sending Mr. Rassam, who is as fitted for the task as any could be, is better than would be the tempting of Providence by sending out agents who would probably share the fate of the captives already in the Emperor's power.
  LORD CHELMSFORD,in explanation, disclaimed having said anything in hostility to Mr. Rassam, but quoted the opinion of Sir William Coghlan, to the effect that Mr. Rassam's endeavours had failed; that there was nothing for it but to make another effort from England; that the long delays which had taken place had added to the difficulty incident to this matter, but that that difficulty must be encountered.

THE CATTLE PLAGUE—DEPUTATION FROM THE CONFERENCE AT ST. JAMES' HALL.—QUESTION.
LORD BATEMANrose to put the Question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government of which he had given notice, but said that he desired to preface it by a few observations on the subject to which it referred. A very large and influential meeting, composed of eminent agriculturists from every part of the kingdom, with a deputation from forty-four or forty-five counties in England and Scotland, had been held on the previous day in St. James' Hall, in order to confer together on the subject of the cattle plague, and to determine what representations they should make in regard to it to the Government. Certain resolutions of the strongest nature were passed at that conference. Although all parties and shades of opinion, as well as all classes interested in the cattle

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trade, were represented at that meeting, and although there might have been some slight difference of view manifested on certain minor points of detail, yet. he thought he was justified in saying that there could not possibly have been greater unanimity displayed than was exhibited at that conference. It was arranged that a deputation should wait upon the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary on that morning; and the object of his present Question was to ascertain from the noble Earl the nature of the reply given by Sir George Grey to the members of that deputation. He wished to impress on the noble Earl that that deputation was not the first by a great number which had already attended at the Home Office. The county with which he was connected—one of the largest cattle-breeding counties in the country (Herefordshire)—had made representations of the same kind to the Home Secretary without the slightest result. He therefore now desired, if possible, to extract from the Government some indication of what their policy with reference to that fearful scourge was likely to be. There had already been far too much delay, and the great interests involved could not continue to wait while the Government were hearing this person and that person, and making a party question of that subject. It was not a party but a national question. Those with whom he acted did not wish to make it a party question, but to press their views with respect to it upon the attention of the Government, and to elicit some answer to the representations daily being made to them from all parts of the kingdom. If he was not misinformed, the Royal Agricultural Society of England applied a few days ago to be received as a deputation, and the Government told them that they must put it off till Monday next. Now, they had had too much putting off; and that was the very thing they complained of. There was, certainly, the promise that a Bill should be introduced into the other House. It might not be in strict accordance with the usages of Parliament that some idea of the nature of a measure about to be brought into the other House should now be given to their Lordships; but on a vital question of such extreme urgency as that, he really thought the Government might, without impropriety, afford some intimation of their probable policy. The noble Lord concluded by asking the noble Earl the First Lord of the Treasury for the Answer of the Secretary of
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State for the Home Department to the Deputation from the Cattle Plague Conference held at St. James' Hall?
EARL RUSSELL: In reply to the Question of the noble Lord, I have to say that my right hon. Friend (Sir George Grey) has not given any formal answer to the deputation this morning. He received them, but he did not state what was the intention of the Government. The better and certainly the more regular and convenient course to pursue when a measure is about to be proposed to Parliament is to allow the Minister who is charged with the introduction of that measure to explain its provisions, and state the views of the Government on the subject to which it refers. It is, no doubt, important that there should be no unnecessary delay; but it was only last Tuesday that Her Majesty delivered Her Speech from the Throne, and the interval between that day and Monday is, I think, not unreasonable. The noble Lord says, and I agree with him, that the measure of the Government ought to be discussed with an absence of party spirit, and I trust it will be discussed in such a way that the Legislature may come to a right decision. In France and Belgium measures have been adopted by the Governments of those countries which have been in a great degree successful. I hope that the proposals made by Her Majesty's Government will be equally wise, and in the meantime I trust that the delay from this day to Monday will not be productive of inconvenience to the interests concerned.
THE EARL OF DERBY: There is one very good reason, as it seems to me, why this question should not be considered a party question, and that is, because the feeling seems to be unanimous—even the general supporters of the Government concur—in deprecating the course which the Government have pursued. I cannot help adverting to what seems to be an inconsistency in the course taken by the noble Earl at the head of the Government. During the whole of the autumn and winter the various Orders in Council have been justified by saying that it was necessary to ascertain the views of the country, and that the Government had to feel their way in order to know how far they might go—so that if they found the feelings to be strong and general they might adopt more stringent measures. Now, if there is anybody able to speak with authority on this question and represent the opinion of

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the country, it is the Royal Agricultural Society of England. If, however, I understand aright, they requested the honour of an interview with the noble Earl at the head of the Government in order to lay before him the unanimous opinion of the Society. I should have thought that the noble Earl would have been glad to receive such a body; but the noble Earl, I am informed, has told them that although he will be very glad to hear what they have to say, he cannot receive them until two o'clock on Monday—that is, two or three hours before the measure of the Government, which will then be cut and dried, is submitted to the House of Commons. If the noble Earl was really desirous to obtain the opinion of the Royal Agricultural Society, it appears to me he ought to obtain it before Monday, so that if desirable the Government might act upon their representations. Seeing them on the very day the Government measure is to be brought in does not, I confess, seem to me a very advantageous mode of profiting by the advice of the Royal Agricultural Society.
EARL RUSSELL: With regard to the first observation of the noble Earl, I am informed that a very distinguished member of the Royal Agricultural Society, the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, has expressed an opinion that Her Majesty's Government have done all that they ought to have done. No doubt others are of opinion, on the contrary, that the Government ought to have taken more vigorous measures. I have this very day presented a petition from an association in that county—Aberdeen—which has shown so much vigour and energy in taking measures against the cattle plague, suggesting that the measures adopted in that county are worthy of consideration. If the Royal Agricultural Society had come to me a fortnight ago I might have appointed an earlier day to receive them, but when they applied to me I was unable to see them before Monday next.
EARL SPENCERsaid, he would endeavour not to weary their Lordships, but he hoped to be allowed to make a few observations upon the subject introduced by the noble Lord (Lord Bateman). He was of opinion that we had come to a great crisis in the matter of the cattle plague. In a very short time the grass would begin to grow, and it was necessary to act with great vigour during the short interval that remained, unless their Lordships made up
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their minds to see this terrible plague ravage the country during the whole of the summer. During the discussion in the other House of Parliament, frequent remarks had been made upon the Report of the Royal Commission. He thought it his duty to make a few observations upon those remarks, and he only regretted that their Lordships had not the advantage of hearing some member of the Commission better able to explain their views. It had been asserted that the Government were justified in not taking more stringent measures by the very great division of opinion that existed among the members of the Commission. It was true that as many as four reports were appended to the Report of the Commission; but if these reports were examined it would be found that there were not such great and important differences as were alleged to exist. It was true that Mr. M'Clean, an eminent engineer and a member of the Commission, differed from his colleagues in not attaching so much importance to the cattle plague as they did. With regard to the other eleven Commissioners, they agreed as to the identity of the disease with the rinderpest, which was so well known in Germany, Prussia, and Russia, and known not only to history, but by sad and constant experience every year. All the medical men and veterinary surgeons abroad had studied the disease, and the only thing they were agreed in recommending was the adoption of the most repressive and stringent measures. As to the cure of the disease, when it once broke out they gave it up. The Commissioners were, therefore, of opinion that strong and stringent measures must at once be adopted in this country to stop the disease. They did not wish to leave the adoption of these measures in the hands of the local authorities, believing that the Government were better able to carry them out and to instruct the country in regard to what was necessary to be done. On this point they were all agreed; and they were also unanimous in thinking that the only measure likely to be really efficacious was in putting a total stoppage to the movement of all the stock in Great Britain. Then came the difference between the Commissioners to which he had adverted. The minority of the Commission—and he was one of that minority—shrank from advising the Government to adopt a measure so novel and so gigantic in its proportions as the majority

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thought the Commissioners ought to recommend. The minority were of opinion that they were called upon to recommend some practical measure which the Government could put into execution. The arguments that weighed with them were that to stop the trade in cattle was impossible, that there were many parts of the country in which the disease had not appeared, and that the country at that time was not aware of the importance of the subject. The minority considered that the course and custom of so important a trade could not be revolutionized by a stroke of the pen under such circumstances. They, therefore, recommended measures which he admitted were not so efficacious, but which they thought were more useful because they would be carried out. It was thus only as to the degree of stringency that the Commissioners differed. This was in the month of October. He must say he still entertained the opinion that the minority of the Commissioners were right in the view they took and the recommendations they made at that time. But matters had now changed. On the 4th of November the total number of cattle that had died of the plague was not more than 10,000, while the number of deaths was now 11,000 a week, and the deaths altogether amounted to 120,000. The country was now thoroughly alarmed. Another circumstance favourable to the re-consideration of the subject was, that a change was taking place in the meat trade. There had been of late an enormous increase in the dead meat of the country, and the result was that, if it were indispensable to stop the movement of stock in the country, the trade would be able to accommodate itself to the change, while in October they would have been unable to do so. Another point was deserving of consideration. In two months' time the grass would be growing, and the farmers would be obliged to purchase their stock and replenish their herds. After that had been done the adoption of restrictive measures would be almost impossible. Was it, therefore, too much to ask the large towns to put themselves to some slight inconvenience for only six weeks? He conceived that a vast difference existed between that proposition and what was contemplated in October last, when the large towns would have had to submit to stringent measures for six months without having any very clear idea as to what the result would be upon the supply and price of meat. Still,
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he was bound to confess that a measure restricting the locomotion of cattle could not now be recommended with the same confidence as a cure for the cattle plague as it could have been six months ago. He especially doubted very much whether the total stoppage of cattle traffic would put an end to the disease in Cheshire, because he believed the air of the district was so thoroughly impregnated with it as to be past cure, until the infection actually died out of itself; he felt, therefore, that this measure alone would not be sufficient. He would, therefore, ask the Government seriously to consider the proposals of so large and influential a meeting as that held yesterday. He thought it would be necessary to go as far as to cleanse all the places where any diseased animals had been. He agreed with Dr. Lyon Playfair who had stated that if the recommendations of the Commission were to be carried out with the intention of doing good, it would be absolutely necessary for Government to give the strictest instructions to disinfect every shed where diseased cattle had been. In referring to Dr. Lyon Playfair, he must allude to what had fallen from the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) on a previous occasion, with reference to a letter which Dr. Playfair had written to Lord Grenville on this subject; and which the noble Duke stated had influenced the Government in not acting on the Report of the Commissioners. He felt certain that Dr. Playfair had written that letter not to deter the Government from adopting the Report, but, on the contrary, to incite them to greater exertion. But time was wanted to do this, and the proposed suspension of all cattle traffic would give time for the cleansing not only of the market places and sheds, but also of the railway trucks, so that in the spring there would be no fear of animals catching the infection by being placed in infected places. He had had considerable difficulty in bringing himself to see the necessity of such stringent measures; but when he saw an influential meeting such as that of yesterday, representing all the counties in England, agreeing upon the question, he was willing to waive his own opinion, and consent with the rest to the course proposed. And even if the stoppage of cattle traffic and other measures for the period suggested failed to accomplish the one great object all had in view, still the advantages which would result from the arrangement would be very great. The disease would certainly be

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very much decreased for one thing, and much future distress prevented. He had sanguine hopes that if the Government would take the question in hand with vigour and determination, the disease would be eradicated as it had been from France and Belgium by the respective Governments of those countries. He would, in conclusion, press upon the attention of the Government the resolutions come to at the meeting yesterday, and say that although he did not desire to see them all embodied in the Government measure exactly as they stood, yet they were all worthy of the consideration of the Secretary of State, and he would be glad to see the spirit of them imported into his Bill.
LORD WALSINGHAMsaid, he was very anxious, as a member of the Royal Agricultural Society, to remind their Lordships that a deputation from the Society had waited upon a Member of the Government two months ago, and that the proposed deputation was not the first. He said this because he feared that some of their Lordships might be led to believe that the Society had been backward in pressing their views upon the Government. As he would have an opportunity of expressing his opinion upon the subject when the deputation waited on the noble Earl, he would not now say more than that he agreed with the noble Lord who had last addressed the House.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I regret very much to find that some remarks which I thought it necessary to make in reference to the recommendations of the Commission have been construed into an attack upon it. But the idea of attacking the Commission never entered into my head. On the contrary, I think Her Majesty's Government owe a deep debt of obligation to the Commissioners. At a time most inconvenient to themselves they devoted their energies to a most difficult task, and although they put the Government to some inconvenience in recommending a course which the Government, from other reasons, did not think it right to adopt, yet I do think the country has been most deeply benefited by their able Report, especially in respect to the immense mass of information which they have analyzed and condensed, and which they have presented to Parliament in so clear a form, and he thought he should have been wanting in respect to the Commissioners and the country if he had not stated why their recommendations had not been followed. A very
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able and intimate friend of his, one of the Members of the Commission (Mr. Lowe), thought that this explanation was an attack upon the Commissioners; but he was sure that his right hon. Friend would be glad to learn that he had been misinformed in the observations which he had made with reference to the Privy Council. My right hon. Friend has complained of the Privy Council for not having summoned Dr. Simonds, while the fact is Dr. Simonds was the first person we saw upon the subject, and he with good reason declined to act in behalf of the Government. And with reference to another charge, I have to say that the Order in Council issued on the authority of Lord Palmerston and the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack was simply an extension to Scotland of the first Orders issued. Then we were charged with not having found out speedily enough whether the disease was the actual rinderpest or not. That is not the case. Sufficient doubt existed among professional men as to the nature of the disease to render it inadvisable to mention the name "rinderpest." Accordingly, the word "rinderpest" did not occur in the first Order; but it was inserted in the second Order issued on the 11th August. Some complaint, too, has been made that the appointment of the Commission was delayed unnecessarily; but the fact is that there is a great difficulty in appointing a Commission in the dead season of the year, so many gentlemen are away from home. The addresses of some were not known; others were in Switzerland; and, of course, endless delays from such causes were experienced. I think that your Lordships will agree with me that my noble Friend the Prime Minister is right in asking your Lordships not to anticipate the measure which is to be introduced on Monday. The noble Earl opposite alluded to the unanimous opinion of the House.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I said there was a very general expression of opinion on the part of the House.
EARL GRANVILLE: Yes, and the speeches in the House bore out that impression; but I found, in the course of conversation, that even leading Members on the Opposition side of the House entertained the opinion that there would have been a very strong opposition to a uniform Order, and some noble Lords considered it absolutely impracticable. I cannot acknowledge that in our conduct we waited to be guided by a little rise or fall in public

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opinion. We found that we really had not the power of enforcing arbitrarily upon the whole country measures which could only be carried out by the acquiescence of local opinion, and this feeling dictated our conduct as far as possible. The great advantage which an Act of Parliament possesses over an Order in Council is that the proposals before being accepted are well discussed, and different opinions upon the matter find expression and are read in every part of the country. But I earnestly hope the Bill will not be treated as a party measure.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that from personal experience, he felt bound to express his conviction that any attempt to enforce stringent uniform orders throughout the country would not only have been generally unpopular, but perfectly unworkable. There was in this country no gensdarmerie to enforce measures even when sanctioned by Orders in Council framed under the provisions of an Act of Parliament, and such measures could not be carried out unless the people generally concurred in their advisability. He knew that in his own neighbourhood, Devonshire, he had heard gravely-entertained propositions of evading even the very limited and certainly not too stringent operation of the notices given by a majority of the magistrates in the petty divisions. There had also been the grossest carelessness in many districts, even on the part of the farmers themselves, owing to the general indisposition to inform and enforce the penalties against the neighbouring farmers who had evaded the prohibitions. The state of public opinion would certainly in October and November not have sanctioned the introduction of too stringent measures; and he even now doubted whether some latitude ought not to be allowed in any Act of Parliament about to be framed respecting the movement of cattle in districts quite remote from infection. Orders could not enforce themselves, and unless they were generally acceptable to the people, there was no machinery in this country which could secure the enforcement of any orders. The enforcement of penalties would not, he felt convinced, secure obedience to orders unless partial compensation were made to those whose cattle were to be slaughtered, as he believed they ought to be slaughtered. His experience of voluntary and mutual insurance associations had shown them to be failures, and he felt convinced that terror alone would be quite insufficient to induce men ren-
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dered desperate by losses to obey the law in such a manner as to save their neighbours' property from destruction.
THE EARL OF AIRLIEsaid, he quite agreed that no measures could have been effectually enforced if they had not met with the concurrence of the local authorities. In his opinion, instead of stamping out the disease they were only spreading the infection by sending the butcher to the ox, as the effluvium arising from the slaughter of an ox apparently sound, but really diseased, must be very dangerous in a homestead. The case of Aberdeenshire had been held up as a very bright example of what should be done to stamp out the disease. Still, even in that county the cattle traffic, although under restrictions, had never been entirely stopped, Bound cattle being permitted to travel on the sanction of the committee being obtained. That sanction, however, was only given on the express understanding that the cattle so removed, were not to return, but were to be slaughtered at the market. He did not know whether their Lordships were aware of the very singular manner in which the cattle plague had again broken out in Aberdeenshire. From a statement in The Times newspaper of that morning it appeared that Mr. Hay, the inspector for the county, had discovered that the disease had been communicated by mean3 of a pack-sheet used for wrapping up the carcases of beasts slaughtered for the London markets. If the statement was correct, that was a strong case to prove the danger of slaughtering at home, and in favour of allowing cattle to be removed under certain restrictions. The disease had arrived at such a stage that they could only hope to free the country from it by slaughtering all diseased cattle, and isolating all suspected animals until they could get a clean bill of health. He was glad to learn that the Government were going to introduce a Bill on the subject on Monday night, and he trusted that they would press it forward as rapidly as possible.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the question was whether the Government were to put a stop to all cattle traffic, or were to permit it to take place under certain restrictions. His noble Friend (Earl Spencer) himself, at the time that the Report of the Commission was made, was distinctly opposed to an entire stoppage of the traffic; and he was supported in that opinion by three distinguished Members of the Commission. His

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noble Friend was also decidedly against prohibiting the carriage of cattle on railways for the supply of large towns; and although he might have changed his opinion since, the judgment he came to in the first instance was supported by a very important minority of the Members of the Commission. He saw from a report in The Times of that day that at a meeting which was held on Thursday, over which a noble Lord present (the Earl of Lichfield) presided, the representatives of the Agricultural Societies of Edinburgh and Glasgow protested against a resolution being carried prohibiting the bringing of live cattle into large cities, and that was a circumstance worthy of consideration when Government had to determine whether the large populations of the kingdom were to be deprived of their supply of live meat by railway. That was a matter which could not be determined by any resolutions passed at a public meeting, but was a question for. Parliament.
THE EARL OF LICHFIELDsaid, that at the meeting referred to an amendment in favour of excepting large cities from the operation of the prohibition was rejected by a large majority. He was much pleased to hear that the views of his noble Friend who had acted on the Royal Commission (Earl Spencer) with regard to the necessity for the suspension of the cattle traffic had changed since the publication of the Report of the Commission, and he thought that the reasons given by the noble Lord for the change in his opinion were perfectly satisfactory. He thought that the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), in remarking upon the important difference of opinion between the majority and the minority of the members of the Commission, had somewhat exaggerated that difference of opinion. As far as he understood the two Reports, the opinion expressed in both was in favour of applying uniform regulations to the whole kingdom, whether those measures were to be of the stringent character recommended by the majority, or of the milder character recommended by the minority; and he thought when he read the Reports that nothing could be stronger than the advice they contained, that whatever regulations were adopted should be applied uniformly throughout the country. It was clear that it was utterly impossible that any regulations could have been applied throughout the country generally without an Order from Government to that effect; and,
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although he was not in the least inclined to blame the Government for not having acted with more decision up to a certain point, he did think that at a later period, when there had been a very strong and a very universal expression of opinion throughout the country with regard to the necessity for uniformity of action, it was unfortunate that more stringent regulations were not adopted by the Government. Had Government desired to have a general expression of the feeling of the country upon the subject, nothing would have been easier than to have sent circular letters to the chairmen of quarter sessions in October last, requesting information upon the matter. It was true that no suggestions had been offered by those bodies; but it must be recollected that when they assembled in the early part of October the Royal Commission had just been appointed, and that it was looked up to with great confidence by the people, who believed that any Report issued by that Commission would be acted upon by the Government. It must also be recollected that at that time the public generally throughout the country were not sufficiently well-informed upon the subject either to have given any recommendations to the Government or to have acted for themselves in the matter; and he must say that nothing had astonished him more than the difficulty there was at one time in persuading the farmers of the imminent danger of the disease. He was, therefore, disposed to think that up to a certain time it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for the Government to have acted otherwise than they had done. But when the Orders in Council were issued, leaving it open to the local authorities in the different counties to act as they thought best for their local interests, it was to be expected that they would, to a certain extent, be guided by the action taken by the Government in the particular case which came under its immediate control—namely, the movement of cattle from the ports into the interior of the country. Now certainly the action of the Government in that case was not in the direction of putting a stop to the traffic, for since the issuing of the Orders in Council the movement of cattle from the ports to the interior had been unrestricted, and, as far as the public were aware, no precautions whatever had been adopted to prevent the evils likely to arise from such traffic. It was his earnest hope that the strongly-expressed opinion of so many

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practical agriculturists who were present at the meeting referred to, coming as they did from all parts of the kingdom, and representing so many agricultural societies and the most important agricultural interests, would have great weight with the Government when framing the Bill to be laid on the table on Monday next.
House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till Monday next, Eleven o'clock.