Lords Sitting of 3 August 1866

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Common Law Courts (Fees and Salaries)* (271); Expiring Laws Continuance* (272).
Second Reading—Inclosure (No. 2)* (236); Public Libraries Act Amendment (249); Turnpike Acts Continuance* (253); Local Government Supplemental (No. 4)* (254); Railways (Ireland) Temporary Advances (255); Bills of Sale Act (1854) Amendment* (256); Oysters Cultivation (Ireland)* (257); Naval Discipline* (258); Dockyard Extensions* (259); Consolidated Fund (Appropriation)*; Landed Estates Court, &c. (Ireland) (260); New Zealand* (261); Cattle Diseases Prevention Act Amendment* (No. 2)* (262); Prisons* (263); Industrial Schools* (268); Reformatory Schools* (269).
Report—Straits Settlements (273).
Third Reading—Local Government Supplemental (No. 2)* (201); Local Government Supplemental (No. 3)* (202); Land Drainage Supplemental (No. 2)* (224); Railway Companies' Securities* (240), and passed.

ABYSSINIA—IMPRISONMENT OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.—QUESTION.
LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he desired to ask a Question respecting those unhappy persons who were detained in captivity by the Emperor of Abyssinia. He had heard that a change had taken place in the disposition of the Abyssinian Monarch since the receipt of Mr. Rassam's despatch, and he begged to ask how the matter now stood, and whether there were any hopes of the liberation of Mr. Cameron and his fellow-captives?
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: In answer to the Question of my noble Friend, I am glad to be able to state that there is every hope of obtaining the release of those unfortunate men, but not so speedily as was at first expected. The fact is, Mr. Rassam has obtained their liberation from captivity, but the King has insisted on their attending him in his war with his rebellious chiefs, and they are now in the camp of the King. He has, however, sent one of their number, Mr. Flad, over to this country with a letter to the Queen, in which he has made requests for different articles. Her Majesty's Government are now doing their best to obtain the things required by King Theodore, and although Mr. Flad cannot return on account of the rainy season until September, we hope when he does that His Majesty, having obtained what he requires, will then release the prisoners, who are said to be detained without any further restriction than is implied in keeping them in the country, and they are well treated.

PROTECTION OF HYDE PARK.

  QUESTION.
  EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of putting to the noble Earl the First Lord of the Treasury a Question of which I gave notice the day before yesterday. Before, however, I do so, it will be necessary that I should make some statement to your Lordships as to the motives which induce me to put it. In making this statement I do not propose at all to enter into the question as to the right of the public to hold meetings in Hyde Park, or to express any opinion, if there be

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  no such right by law, whether it is expedient to prevent such meetings, or whether the course taken by the Government in prohibiting them was the most advisable under all the circumstances. I shall only say that upon that subject the feeling of irritation has now been very much abated, and will speedily disappear. But there is a question with respect to the state of the Parks and the security of persons traversing them, which I think of considerable public importance. I see from the newspapers that two days after the 23rd—namely, on the 25th of last month—a deputation waited upon the Home Secretary at the head of which was Mr. Beales, who made certain proposals to the Secretary of State, in which he appears to a great extent to have succeeded. According to the statement of The Times newspaper, which I hold in my hand, but to which it is not necessary more particularly to refer, Mr. Beales appears to have represented that, provided the police and soldiers were withdrawn from the Park, he would be able to control the persons who went there; and it is stated that the Home Secretary consented that if Mr. Beales would undertake to do what he had promised neither police nor military would appear. Now that does appear to me a very extraordinary proceeding on the part of the Home Secretary. There is no doubt that Mr. Beales and Mr. Walpole were both anxious to restore quiet in Hyde Park; but there is this to be said—that, besides the persons who went to the Park for the purpose of attending the public meeting, there was another class of person—"roughs" as they are called—who went there for the purpose of attacking person and property, and that many of them committed outrages. It seems to me from what has taken place that the Home Secretary has overlooked the fact that a great many persons were there who cared nothing about Reform, and as little for the manhood suffrage and vote by ballot of Mr. Beales as for the £8 or £10 franchise of Mr. Walpole. Well, then, giving Mr. Walpole every credit for forbearance and humanity, it appears to me there was a failure of duty on the part of the Home Secretary in not keeping police in the Park against persons who were committing depredations, which, as is now stated, have been very considerable. I have since seen that frequently after dusk persons have been attacked and robberies committed by people who notoriously belong to what used to be called the "swell mob,"
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  and who evidently cared nothing for Reform. In short, there is no security for persons or for any property they may have about them after dusk in Hyde Park just now. But my purpose at present is, as I have stated to the noble Earl, with regard to the future; I will not recur to what has taken place already. Of course, it would be impossible that there should be in the Parks during the whole night such a body of police or any other force as should enable persons to traverse the Parks in all directions. But there are now no police in any part of the Parks during the night. It is quite true that before these occurrences a good deal of disorder prevailed in the Parks at night, after the gates were shut, and that the persons who commenced these disorders were not liable to any regular supervision. Now, it seems to me that in order to exercise some control over the class of persons who are stated to have commenced these outrages, not only ought the police to be introduced, but some force should be employed like that which used to patrol the neighbourhood of London when highway robberies were frequent, and this force ought, at certain hours, when the night has set in, to clear the Parks of disorderly characters. As to the persons who are nothing but thieves and pickpockets, I imagine that it would not be difficult for the Home Secretary and Sir Richard Mayne to frame a plan which would free the Parks of them; and if such a plan were carried into effect, we should hear no more of the outrages and disorders which have lately prevailed in Hyde Park. In the meantime, it is clear that at present, after night-fall, there is a danger to person and to property, which ought not to be permitted in so public a place. I have only one word further to say respecting the police. I have seen in the public newspapers statements made reflecting upon the conduct of the police. For my own part, although very possibly among the 1,600 policemen who were in the Park on the 23rd of July, there may have been some who exceeded their duty, and who did not act with the forbearance which was requisite, I must say that, so far as I have known it, the general character of the metropolitan police force has been one of extreme forbearance, their conduct has been extremely good, and, certainly, I should believe the accounts of those persons who state that the police, when they saw them, acted with great moderation and suffered great injuries without making any

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  return, rather than the accounts which represent the police as committing undue violence. I will now ask the noble Earl the question of which I have given him private notice, Whether any provision has been made by the Government for the future protection of persons and property in Hyde Park?
  THE EARL or DERBY: My Lords, when the noble Earl gave me notice of the Question which he intended to ask on this subject, it was in these words—
  "I propose to ask you whether some provision will be made for the security of persons traversing the Park after sunset in future. I shall say as little as possible about the past."
  Receiving that Notice I was certainly not prepared this evening to hear the noble Earl make what I cannot help thinking an uncalled-for attack upon the course of proceeding adopted by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, of which, by the way, the noble Earl will allow me to say that he has given a very incorrect representation. The noble Earl has said that my right hon. Friend, after an interview with Mr. Beales, undertook that if Mr. Beales would use his influence, according to the proposal which he had himself made, to clear the Park of these persons, the remnant of the great assemblage which had by force entered the Park under the pretext of belonging to the Reform Association, Mr. Walpole, on the other hand, would undertake that there should be no police or military in the Park. [Earl RUSSELL: That is, if there was no riot.] Exactly—that there should be no police or military in the Park. Now, that is just the opposite of what my right hon. Friend really said. What he said was that if Mr. Beales would use his influence to remove these persons, and there was no riot or disturbance, he would take care that there should be no such demonstration, either of police or of military, as should be likely to excite an adverse feeling or irritation; but he expressly said that it would be his duty to have an amply sufficient force in reserve to meet any emergency which might arise. With regard to what has since taken place in Hyde Park, it is no new fact, as the noble Earl must be perfectly aware, that persons cannot traverse the Park after dark without being exposed to some amount of risk. I can carry my recollection back for a considerable period—so can the noble Earl—but I doubt whether he can remember the time when it was entirely safe for persons to traverse any of the Parks after
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  dark either in summer or winter. It is perfectly well known that persons so traversing the Parks were always liable to interruption. But I have no doubt, also, that a stimulus has been given to those disorderly persons who assemble in the Park by the apparent success of the mob of ruffians who accompanied the Reform demonstration, and who, after forcing their way into the Park in spite of the police, are now complaining of the brutal conduct of the police in resisting this attempt. As to the conduct of the police, the best proof of the way in which they behaved is that, while the injuries inflicted by them upon their assailants are few and insignificant in number, one-sixth of the whole police force engaged in the maintenance of order were injured, and some were permanently disabled, by the mob. No fewer than 265 of the police, including the greater number of the officers and superintendents, are still suffering from the injuries they received on the 23rd of July, and forty or fifty will suffer all their lives from the violence of those who accompanied, though I do not say they belonged to, the Reform procession. I do not doubt that this collision between the police and the mob occasioned some increase of that inconvenience and danger to persons traversing the Parks of which the noble Earl complains. But considering that the noble Earl has, for the last quarter of a century at least, held important offices in the Government, it does somewhat surprise me that up to the present moment he should never have thought of complaining of or remedying the state of things which he now points out. What is the cause of the insecurity of the Parks? How far that insecurity may be prevented I do not say, but the Government are anxious to consider the best means of applying some remedy. The cause, however, is this—in the first place, there is a divided authority. The Parks are under the control of the Crown, which, through the Ranger, appoints the gate-keepers. They are also to a certain extent under the control of the Board of Works, who appoint, for all the Parks, rather more than 100 park-keepers, these being not expressly selected for their ability to provide against disorder and riot. The police have no power to take any part in preserving order within the Parks unless called upon to support the park-keepers and the ordinary park authorities. The consequence is a division of authority, which is always dangerous to the maintenance of

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  proper order. Again, unless it is well lighted, the police cannot possibly maintain order in a Park which is open to all the world, and in which therefore, owing to the absence of lights, disorderly people collect and scatter themselves over the whole area. For the convenience of the public, Hyde Park—and I am speaking of that only—is kept open until ten at night. At that hour the gates are closed—which appears to be a pretty strong indication of the right to exclude the public at certain periods, and to lay down laws at variance with the absolute right of entrance by the public. No doubt it would facilitate the maintenance of order if the gates were closed at a much earlier hour than ten o'clock; but, on the other hand, that would create so much inconvenience that it has been thought undesirable to deprive the public of the great advantage of passing through the Park in various directions up to that hour. Of late years, also, the means of admission to the Park have been increased by the new road from the Bayswater Gate to Kensington Gate, which is open to the public, though I believe not at all times. The two great securities, then, which can be devised for the maintenance of order in the Park are—first, the establishment of one controlling authority, instead of two or three; and next, the better lighting of the main thoroughfares across the Park. It would be impossible to light the whole of the Park, nor where so large a portion must be kept in darkness, and where so free an admission of the public is necessary and inevitable, would it be possible to prevent some disorderly characters from being constantly in the Park. Though the public are excluded at ten o'clock, I believe there is no power on the part of the police to turn out people whom they find there after that hour. At all events, it is practically impossible to exclude a number of loose and disorderly characters from the Park, and the principal protection we can give is the better lighting of the main thoroughfares and footpaths. That point has been under consideration, and various questions have arisen which have hitherto prevented anything being done. I know that the point was submitted to the late Commissioner of Works, who raised two objections to those measures of precaution which the noble Earl says are so absolutely necessary—first, the expense; and secondly, the disfigurement of the Park by rows of lamps placed along the principal footpaths. I cannot pretend
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  to say that Her Majesty's present Government have come to any definite conclusion; but I have been in communication with the First Commissioner of Works and the Home Secretary on the subject. The Chief Commissioner (Lord John Manners) has agreed to waive his right to nominate any of the park-keepers, and that the police to be employed in their stead shall be paid out of the revenue of the Woods and Forests. Whether that measure will be adopted or not I am unable to say, but it is now under consideration. A further point which is now being considered is to what extent we may be able to introduce a better system of lighting along the chief thoroughfares and footpaths. That will give a considerable protection to the public; but it is impossible to give any protection to those persons who do not, in passing through the Parks, confine themselves to these main thoroughfares and footpaths. If they will range over the Park to its full extent, the risk is absolutely their own, and for the consequences that may happen to them they can blame no one but themselves. I have stated what are the questions now under the consideration of the present Government with a view to remedying an evil of very long standing, that ought to have been dealt with long ago. If any advantage can be derived from the unfortunate occurrences of the past few days, it will be that public attention has been called to the necessity of making provision for the protection of the public against evils which have now existed for as long as I can remember—now unfortunately a good many years.
  LORD LYVEDEN: I think the noble Earl opposite has no cause for complaint as to the manner in which the question was brought forward. My noble Friend on this side (Earl Russell) made a calm and temperate statement. In putting a question respecting the future, it is quite customary to speak of the past. My noble Friend did not enter into the question whether Mr. Beales was right or wrong in not acceding to the desire of the Home Secretary that the proposed meeting in Hyde Park should be abandoned, nor did he enter into the question whether the Home Secretary acted wisely in subsequently closing the gates; but he objected to leaving the Park quite undefended. Those were fair subjects of Parliamentary discussion, but the noble Earl did not go into them. The really curious part of the history is the manner in which the Parks

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  were left on Tuesday and Wednesday totally without protection; but notwithstanding this, to their infinite credit no mischief was done by the shoals of common persons who were walking through and kept to the paths and roads. It was done to the flower-beds and trees by boys and girls, who might have been easily deterred from their misconduct by a few of the ordinary gardeners and park. keepers. I spoke to some of these, but they declined to interfere; and a few children were left to carry on a destruction which might easily have been prevented. As regards the future, might there not be notices put up in Hyde Park, as is done in the Green Park, stating that after certain hours the gates will be closed? I can remember when the Parks were considered unsafe for walking in after certain hours; but numbers of houses have now risen up all around them, and I cannot help thinking that it would be an excellent arrangement to place the Parks in the charge of the police. I believe the conduct of the police to have been perfectly admirable. They have behaved themselves with the utmost coolness and courage on all occasions, and upon a recent occasion, as on former ones, they showed that they were a body eminently fit to be trusted with the preservation of the peace. There is no ground for complaining that the question has been brought forward; it is of immense importance, and if it had been brought forward in a wider sense the subject would still have been one fairly open to Parliamentary discussion.
  EARL RUSSELL: I do not think I misrepresented what Mr. Walpole is reported to have said. [The noble Earl was about to refer to a newspaper.]
  THE EARL OF DERBY: What report is it?
  EARL RUSSELL: It is the report in The Times of the interview which the deputation had with the Home Secretary. It is the only information I have; I was not with the deputation. The words of Mr. Walpole were—
  "Mr. Beales says, 'Withdraw the police and the military force, and I will undertake—at least as far as I can—that no disturbance or disorder takes place.' Well, if you will assure your friends that the Government will give you every opportunity of trying the legal right, and facilitating the determination of that right, and that they ask of you in the interim not to insist on that right until it is determined one way or the other; that in the meantime you will convey to your friends that the Government wish to meet them in the fairest and
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  frankest manner as to the opportunities they may have of discussing public questions, in places which are recognized as places where the police would not be ordered to interfere;—if you will only do that, I think I see the solution of the present difficulty. In that case I will undertake to say that, unless any mischief arise to-night, unless any disturbance be created, unless property be attacked—which it is my duty to defend—there will be no demonstrations"—
  THE EARL OF DERBY: Demonstrations!
  EARL RUSSELL: "Of either military or police. Of course I will keep a reserve"—
  THE EARL OF DERBY: Hear, hear!
  EARL RUSSELL: "But I will make no demonstration of either one or the other." I thought I had correctly represented the effect of that which I have now read; Mr. Walpole said there should be no demonstration on the part of the police, and since then a man passing through the Park might be hustled and have his watch or his purse taken from him, and there would be no police at hand to render him any assistance.
  THE EARL OF DERBY (who had taken the newspaper into his hand): The undertaking given by Mr. Walpole was not that if there were no disturbance there should be no military or police in the Park. The words he used were—
  "In that case I will undertake to say that, unless any mischief arise to-night, unless any disturbance be created, unless property be attacked—which it is my duty to defend—there will be no demonstration of either military or police. Of course, I will keep a reserve, but I will make no demonstration."
  I say that is decidedly and directly the reverse of the statement made by the noble Earl, which was, that there should be no police at all.
  EARL RUSSELL: I am afraid we shall not agree as to the past. I am satisfied with the answer the noble Earl has given me respecting the future.

INDIA—RIGHTS OF OCCUPANCY IN OUDH.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE,in moving for certain Returns relating to the Occupancy of the State of Oudh, said, that the good faith of this country and of the Indian Government were involved in this question. On the restoration of peace after the Indian Mutiny the Talookdars and other proprietors of Oudh were given to understand that they should not be dis-

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  turbed in the occupation of their land. They received the assurance with thankfulness and joy, and the policy that had been indicated to them was carried out with success up to 1864. Since that time, however, ceasing to discriminate between the Talookdars whose rights were indisputable, and the ryots who did not of themselves claim any rights derived from tenure, the Government had done its best to discover cases in which the right of occupancy was not secured by any title or well expressed and clearly defined bargain, and in such cases to give the cultivator the permanent occupancy of the land. The sending out of a Commission for this purpose had excited great alarm among the real proprietors, and these proceedings bad actually been commenced without any notice having been given to the then Chief Secretary of State for India, Sir Charles Wood (now Lord Halifax). An inquiry was however instituted, and in consequence of its result he had been led to make the present Motion. About 1,800 persons were examined, but not a single proprietor asserted that any right such as that which the Commissioner wished to discover existed. In his opinion it was highly desirable that the Report of the Commissioner who was employed to make this inquiry should be laid before Parliament, as well as the despatch of the Chief Commissioner to the Indian Government. He also wished to have the Correspondence between the Home Government and the Indian Government upon the same subject.
  Moved, That there be laid before the House Copies of the Report of the Financial Commissioner, Mr. Daives, upon the Inquiry into Rights of Occupancy in Oudh; together with the Reports of the different Settlement Officers and Commissioners in Oudh; and of the evidence of the landowners, cultivators, and others upon the same subject: Also for,
  Copy of the despatch of the Chief Commissioner of Oudh, forwarding the above-mentioned Reports to the Government of India in February 1865; And also for,
  Copy of the reply of Governor General of India to that despatch, and the further Correspondence of the Chief Commissioner and the Governor General on the subject up to the present time.—(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I shall not be able to promise the noble Marquess all the Returns which he asks for. The first two are to be had from the office, and Her Majesty's Government have no objection to giving them; but the last—that is, the answer of the Governor and his ob-
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  servations on the Report made by the Commissioner—has not yet reached this country. The Government has received the Report made by the Commissioner in Oudh and the Correspondence which took place at that time. All that I can tell my noble Friend is that the result, as far as we can judge, is that there is no right, such as had been assumed by some persons, in favour of the occupiers, and that the cultivators themselves almost unanimously gave up all idea of any such right, they being satisfied with the rights of the tenant ryots, and convinced that, inasmuch as those rights had never been abused, they were not likely to be abused hereafter.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he would withdraw the Motion as far as regarded the last Return.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.

  STRAITS SETTLEMENTS BILL—(No. 273.)
  (The Earl of Carnarvon.)

  REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF POWISsaid, he desired to call the attention of his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the necessity of securing some adequate barrack accommodation for the European and Indian troops before the cession of these Settlements was completed. In 1863 a commencement was made to erect infantry barracks, the total cost of which it was estimated would be £150,000. Those barracks, however, had never been completed. It would be hard to expect the Settlements to incur a debt for the accommodation of a larger number of troops than was required for the Settlements themselves, if such a number was to be stationed there for Imperial as well as Colonial purposes.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My noble Friend has referred to two very important points. It is, of course, essential that the troops stationed in the Settlements should be sufficiently accommodated; and this, after all, is a question of expense. But, as regards the question of revenue, I am not prepared to enter into minute details, because at the present moment the Settlements are in a rather anomalous position. Its affairs neither belong to the India Office nor are they exactly within the pro-

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  vince of the Colonial Department. From 1858 to 1861 there was some donbt as to whether the revenue of the Settlements was equal to the expenditure; but in the latter year a report was made under the direction of Sir Hercules Robinson, which showed the estimated revenue to be £200,000, and the estimated expenditure £198,000, leaving £2,000 annual surplus. It is to be observed, however, that Sir Hercules Robinson's calculations for military expenditure was £63,000, while a subsequent arrangement with the Treasury fixed it at £59,300, which raises the surplus of revenue to £5,700, and the revenue of the Settlement is a growing one. With respect to the troops, the military force hitherto stationed at Singapore has been about 1,650 men; the force to be permanently stationed there and chargeable to the colony will be—artillery, English, 212 men; Ceylon Rifles, 668; making 880 in all. The wing of the European regiment will be stationed there only to meet the convenience of the military authorities. There is at present accommodation at Singapore for about 1,600 men. About £100,000 has already been spent on barracks by the Indian Government; and a paper laid before Parliament states—
  "At both Singapore and Penang there are already good barracks for European troops, while in the first of these places the stone-built, well-raised, and well-ventilated convict barracks, on the removal of their present occupants, will accommodate 2,000 European soldiers should it at any time be necessary to assemble so large a force."
  On the whole I see no reason to apprehend that the revenue of the Settlements, which, as I have already observed, is a growing one, will not be amply sufficient to cover all its expenses, civil as well as military.
  A further Amendment made; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 273.)

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 249.)
  (The Earl of Shaftesbury.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY,on moving the second reading of this Bill, said, it related to an Act for which they
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  were indebted to the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Ewart), and which had been passed by Parliament eleven years ago—namely, in 1855. The Act had proved very useful; twenty-seven free public libraries had been established under it throughout the country which were quite unrestricted as to their admission, and were resorted to by rich and poor. To every one of these libraries a lending library was attached, which added very much to the public value of these institutions. The operation of the present Bill was to extend the operation of the original Act by one or two trifling provisions, and to assimilate the law in Scotland to that in England and Ireland.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a; accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  RAILWAYS (IRELAND) TEMPORARY ADVANCES BILL—(No. 255.)
  (The Earl of Belmore.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl of Belmore.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he did not oppose the Bill, but he wished to remind their Lordships of its object, which was neither more nor less than a power to lend public money to certain railway companies in Ireland that, either through mismanagement or misfortune, had reached such a position that they were unable to borrow money, and consequently the traffic was in danger of being stopped. In this extraordinary and altogether exceptional state of things, considering the circumstances of the time and the extreme inconvenience which would be caused to the country by the stoppage of the railways, this measure was, he thought, justifiable. At the same time, it was necessary to proceed very cautiously, otherwise efforts would be made to extend into England the principle which had been introduced into Ireland; and their Lordships probably would not have occasion to look very far from the House in which they were now sitting to discover a line with regard to which plausible grounds for a similar grant in aid might be put forward, though any such grant from the Consolidated Fund, if made, would certainly be productive of very mischievous consequences. This Bill was identical with that contemplated by the late Govern-

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  ment. Under the exceptional and very painful circumstances of the time, he had therefore no alternative but to support it.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he entirely agreed with the caution given by the noble Earl. In principle nothing could be worse than to advance public money to promote companies, and it was only to be justified by the exceptional state of things in Ireland.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he did not know what there was exceptional in the state of the railways in Ireland, or why the same resort might not be had to the Consolidated Fund by English railways, some of which were in quite as great distress as the railways in Ireland. He could not see any difference between them; and he regarded the principle to which Parliamentary sanction was thus about to be given as one of the most mischievous that could be conceived.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, noble Lords who had previously spoken failed to indicate the principal of the exceptional circumstances which afforded a reason for this application. The Fenian conspiracy had paralyzed the credit of the country, and until very recently nothing was done by the Government to arrest its spread; so that when it broke out as a developed and organized system the value of all Irish property fell immediately. The noble Lord who had last spoken was well aware that sales in the Landed Estates Court had been of necessity suspended, because there were no buyers, and it would have been utter confiscation of the property to have gone on. Thus, the value of property was depreciated by political reasons, and assistance not alone became necessary, but he believed it was deserved to a greater extent than under this Bill would be afforded. If the same state of things existed in England the same plea for an advance of public money might be sustained. When the people took shares in these railways there was no question of Fenianism, and, therefore, though he should not deny that the state of the railways was also influenced by the state of the money market, as were those of Great Britain, yet in the main it was not a question of money, but a question of the depreciation of Irish property arising out of political causes. As far as the Government was concerned he would say that there was no danger of their losing a shilling of these advances; yet if they lost it all he believed the Government would be more than repaid by the main-
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  tenance of the duties and revenue of the country at their ordinary rate, instead of suffering the loss which must inevitably follow if the railway communication of the country were interrupted or seriously affected.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he had been induced to make the remarks be had in consequence of the late Lord Lieutenant saying that the circumstances were exceptional, without saying what the exceptions were. Fenianism was certainly an exceptional circumstance of the time. After this Bill had passed he hoped they would hear no more of Fenianism and no more of advances to Irish railways.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, it seemed to him that the Government, having afforded great facilities to the Irish railway companies to obtain public money, ought to acquire over that body some right to deal with the fares, rates, and charges of the companies beyond that which they would acquire from those companies that were solvent and did not need their aid. His own conviction was, that those rates and charges were unduly high as regarded the public, and unduly high as regarded the development of their own prosperity. They were enormously higher than on the Continent of Europe. And on this subject be could not but recall the wise words of his noble Friend (Lord Taunton), who said that in the competition with foreign manufacturers it made little difference practically to the manufacturers of this country whether import or export duties were levied by Government on goods, or whether high charges were levied on the means of transport, not for the benefit of the Government, but for the benefit of railway companies. They had lately seen something of the intensity of that competition in the fact that French locomotives had been imported into England; and though he believed that had more to do with strikes than with railway charges, yet he believed that those high charges did act prejudicially to the trade of the country.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  LANDED ESTATES COURT &c. (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 260.)
  (The Earl of Belmore.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF BELMORE moved the second reading of this Bill, which, he said,

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  was intended to improve the working of the Court.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Belmore.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he regarded the measure as an exceedingly useful one. Having reference to the present amount of business, it was desirable to reduce the number of Judges; but as additional work would be cast upon the two remaining Judges, it was only fair that their salaries should be increased. No Court in Ireland, he believed, was more deserving of support than this tribunal, which had been of inestimable use in simplifying the sale of landed estates. Irish proprietors, without exception, were of opinion that great benefits had been derived from the operations of the Court; and according to universal testimony the duties of the Court had been most efficiently performed, and gave great satisfaction to suitors.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

ARMY—SANITARY REFORM.

  QUESTION.
  EARL FORTESCUE,on rising to put the Question of which he had given notice to the Under Secretary for War, said, he desired to say a few words upon the subject of sanitary reform in the army, in which he had long taken a deep interest. Impaired health and eyesight, however, now prevented his taking the active part he once did in promoting this important subject; but he had been exceedingly grateful for the success which had attended the labours of others, including the great Minister, the loss of whom the country was still deploring, and successive Secretaries of State for War. He referred more particularly to the late Lord Herbert, Lord de Grey, Dr. Sutherland, Mr. Rawlinson, and last, though not least, Miss Nightingale. That their efforts had not been without result would be shown by a few facts, which he desired to bring under the attention of their Lordships. At the time he first brought forward the subject in the House of Commons the average death-rate in the army was 17 per 1,000, and in the Guards 20 per 1,000; but for some time it had been reduced to 9 per 1,000. In India the death-rate was formerly about 60 per 1,000, but it had been reduced to 20 per
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  1,000. The Duke of Wellington stated that the average illness in the army might be reckoned at 10 per 1,000; but complaints were now made that some of the new Hospitals—for instance, the Herbert Hospital at Woolwich, which was built to hold 7 per cent—had been constructed on too large a scale, and that, consequently, they were not adequately occupied, and money had been wasted in making too much provision for sickness. But this gratifying result was owing to the great improvement which had taken place in the general health of the army, which had been caused, no doubt, by the labours of those to whom he had alluded, and the working of the Contagious Diseases Act, which was passed within the last year. At the same time, it was proper to say that the unfortunate loss of life in Ashantee—the disastrous march to Mhow, and the frightful mortality recently experienced in Hong Kong—showed that much remained to be learnt, and that additional precautions were necessary for the health of our army. It was worthy of notice, as a proof of this, that even greater success had attended the sanitary reforms in foreign armies, and particularly among the French troops, than had attended our own. He found that the average death-rate in the French army was formerly 19 per 1,000, but it was now as low as 9. In Algeria it was in one part once 140 per 1,000; for some time it was 64; and now the average was 17 per 1,000, which, it would be seen, was lower than the mortality in our Indian army. In some parts of Algeria, indeed, the death-rate had been reduced to 12 per 1,000, and on one occasion, notwithstanding the marches and counter-marches to defeat the rebels in the interior, the mortality was only 14 per 1,000. Lord de Grey had promised, he believed, that a Commission or a Committee should visit Algeria for the purpose of investigating what had been done there and learning the lessons which might be derived from the proceedings of the French in that country. It had been discovered that the improved health in Algeria was partly owing to improved food and clothing, and to a kind of sanitary reconnaissance made previous to the choice of sites for encampment, especially for stations. But he had been informed that the improvement in health of the army of Algeria had chiefly arisen from what Sir Hugh Rose had done so much to encourage in

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  India—namely, improving the general sanitary condition of the military stations and a certain area around them. In one place, in particular, which had been three times entirely depopulated, such success bad attended the efforts there that the birth-rate greatly exceeded the death-rate. This result, he believed, was mainly attributable to the land drainage operations, which had been carried on by the soldiers themselves, greatly redounding to their moral and physical benefit. The works were designed and superintended by French Engineers, and executed by the soldiers, who received extra pay for it. It appeared from cases which had occurred in our colonies, and especially in India, that the only persons to be relied upon for devising and superintending works required for the sanitary benefit of the troops and the surrounding Native population were the Royal Engineers, a distinguished scientific corps, which had been admirably trained for defensive or offensive work against human enemies; but it was deficient owing to there not being an organized system of instruction, not only in practical knowledge of sanitary works, but in book knowledge of such matters. Lord De Grey, he believed, promised that a kind of Aide Memoire, or manual of instruction, should be prepared for the benefit of the corps. Some of the works it had constructed in Madras were held to be comparatively satisfactory, because the mortality among the soldiers stationed there was only 20 per 1,000, but when it was found that the mortality among soldiers' wives in India was about 50, and among their children nearly 90 per 1,000, and that the diseases which caused such ravages among them belonged to that class which was more particularly affected by sanitary works, he could not help arriving at the conclusion that better sanitary works conducted on a larger scale would benefit not only the soldiers and their families, but the surrounding population. Reports had been made of the exceeding low rate of mortality among the Prussian soldiers while on the march, but their authenticity had been questioned. There could, however, be no doubt that the great sanitary improvement in the French army had greatly increased its efficiency, adding something like 4,000 a year to its numbers as compared with former times. In a pecuniary point of view, and putting humanity and justice to our brave men aside for the
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  moment, this was an important consideration, and justified him in calling the attention of the Government to the matter. He was aware that the War Department had made many wise and economical requisitions for barrack improvements which had not been acceded to by the Treasury. Then he held that the case for constructing improved dwellings in the fortifications was as great as that of barracks, and that some advance might reasonably be made for this purpose, to be repaid by instalments. Large sums of money had been expended on the barracks, but be was informed that they still remained in an unwholesome condition. Limerick he especially instanced as an example of this. He would conclude by asking his noble Friend the Under Secretary of War, Whether any Arrangements have been made for carrying on Observations as to the Application of sanitary Science in foreign Armies analogous to those usually made as to the Progress of combative Sciences in foreign Armies in the Field: And also, to inquire whether any and what preparation is being made for the better Instruction of the Royal Engineers in planning and directing the Execution of sanitary Works in India and the Colonies, or in Barracks, Military Hospitals, or Fortifications at Home and elsewhere?
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, the subject was of great importance, but he thought he could assure the noble Earl who introduced it (Earl Fortescue) that the Army Medical Department was fully competent, and kept pace with medical knowledge at home and abroad. He could not say whether a medical expedition had visited Algeria, but the Department was well acquainted with what had taken place there. In the beginning of 1865 a medical officer of eminence was sent to the United States to study and report upon matters connected with army medical science. His report had not yet been received, but such information as recent events in America could furnish might be depended upon from him. Application had been made to the Foreign Office to send medical officers to Germany to investigate the medical arrangements of the armies in the field, and also to report, as far as he was able, upon the results of the convention which took place two years ago for the amelioration of the condition of sick and wounded soldiers in the field. The departure of these officers had been delayed only by the change in the Government; from their

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  reports, however, much valuable information might be expected. With regard to the second portion of the noble Earl's Question, he had never heard that the Engineers were defective either in the theory or in the practical application of sanitary principles, either to the construction or alteration of barracks. They had, however, many difficulties to contend with in consequence of very faulty construction and very badly selected sites; and in many cases the difficulties had been very successfully dealt with by the Engineers. He would read a very short memorandum made for the instruction of officers of Engineers in planning and directing sanitary works. The general reports of the Army Sanitary Commission are circulated. One of these reports deals with all barracks at home, and another with those at the Mediterranean stations. Besides containing recommendations in detail on the several barracks, these reports contain general principles for guidance. The Report of the Royal Commission on the Indian Army, and a pamphlet drawn up by the Army Sanitary Commission in connection with it, have also been circulated. Other minor papers, whenever considered of general interest or application, have also been sent. The Engineers have also the advantage of an annual course of lectures by the Professor of Hygiene to the Army Medical School. £30,000 a year has been now authorized for some years for sanitary improvements; the details of the whole of it are examined in the Works Department of the War Office, to see that the expenditure is conducted on sound principles. The observations made here tend, of course, to instruct others. Instruction in these matters is now given to the young officers at the establishment at Chatham. In 1862 a Committee recommended the gradual withdrawal of civilian clerks of the works, to be superseded by officers and Sapper serjeants; and this scheme is now in course of adoption, so as to insure a more close personal supervision by officers of works, sanitary or otherwise. In conclusion, he felt that he could assure the noble Earl that the Army Medical Department fully appreciated the necessity of progressing in a sanitary direction; he thought he could also assure him that the officers of the Royal Engineers were competent to conduct the necessary inquiries.
  EARL FORTESCUEexpressed great satisfaction at receiving the information afforded him; but he doubted whether
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  knowledge to be searched for in many different Reports would be as useful as it would be if condensed into a portable manual with regard to drainage and barrack erection, altered from time to time as fresh information was acquired,
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, Twelve o'clock.