Lords Sitting of 26 April 1866

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Prosecution Expenses * (88).
Second Reading—Poor Persons' Burial (Ireland) (77).
Committee—Sale of Land by Auction (93).
Report—Public Offices (Site) * (67).

SALE OF LAND BY AUCTION BILL. (No. 93.)
(The Lord St. Leonards.)

COMMITTEE ON RE-COMMITMENT.
House in Committee (according to Order) on Re-commitment.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, the Bill had been called a class measure, but it applied as well to the humblest cottage as to the greatest mansion or the most magnificent castle. The object of the Bill was to disturb as little as possible the present mode of proceeding in sales by auction, and at the same time to put an end to a state of things which was by no means creditable either to the law of England or to the practice of the Courts of Equity. In consequence of what passed in Committee upon the Bill, he thought it his duty to take the opinion of experienced solicitors in London and the country, and also of some eminent auctioneers, and then for the first time he discovered that it was the invariable custom of auctioneers to bid at auctions, perhaps a dozen times, without announcing their intention to do so. Now, he felt bound to tell these gentlemen that every one of the sales which had been carried on upon that system was absolutely illegal, and could not stand for one moment. The auctioneer could not bid unless there were some restrictions upon him. He did not mean to say a single word against the character of any of the gentlemen who conducted those sales, but, nevertheless,
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the system was open to the most serious objection. Now, if this Bill passed, the effect of it would be that if a man proposed to sell without reserve, he must say so; and if he desired to sell with reserve, he would be at liberty to do so, provided he stated clearly that such was to be the case; and if the price was not reached which the owner wished the property to go at, the auctioneer must declare the estate unsold. If the auctioneer should reserve to himself the right to bid either once or as often as he liked, he must state distinctly that he did so, and then there could be no objection to it. In fact, such a condition might be absolutely necessary, in order to protect the seller and to prevent estates being snapped up much below their value.
LORD ROMILLYsaid, that the principal object which he had in view in the suggestions which he had made to the noble and learned Lord was that the conditions of sale should be set forth in print beyond the possibility of mistake—namely, whether the property was to be sold without reserve or subject to a reserved price, and whether the seller or his agent reserved to themselves the right to bid. He must express his regret that the Bill, instead of being confined to land, did not extend to all cases of sales by auction. It might have been difficult to make it so comprehensive; but at the same time many abuses, such as he had previously pointed out to the House, might have been dealt with. He approved the Bill so far as it related to sales of land by auction.
THE LORD CHANCELLORconcurred with his noble and learned Friend that the Bill would effect an amendment in the law. It would be a salutary reform, although it did not extend as far as he could have wished. With respect to the observations of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Romilly), he quite agreed with him that great evils existed in the sale of ordinary chattels. In too many instances such auctions were regular swindles; but they did not stand in the same category as auctions of land did. There were, as they all knew, fictitious sales in the City to which unwary people were entrapped. It was desirable that more effectual means should exist than were now available to put down this species of swindling.
Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 89.)

POOR PERSONS' BURIAL (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 77.)—SECOND READING.
(The Earl of Belmore.)
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that this was a Bill which had come up from the House of Commons, the object of which was to enable Boards of Guardians in Ireland to provide, out of the poor rates, for the cost of coffins for persons who might have been in destitute circumstances at the time of their death, or whose relations might be unable to bear the expense of coffins for them. Up to the year 1864, in any case of this so t, it was the duty of the Churchwardens of the parish to provide coffins, and to defray the expense of them out of what was called vestry cess, and that irrespective of the religion of the deceased, In that year, Sir Robert Peel brought in a Bill to abolish vestry cess, which passed through Parliament, and since then there had been no fund applicable for the purpose. It was very true that these cases might very seldom arise, but they had arisen, and he would instance two cases which had occurred in the Enniskillen union. In one case, an old woman had died in destitute circumstances, and but for the charity of the landlord of the place in which she had previously lived, must have been buried without a coffin. The other was a still stronger case. The relieving officer was in the act of conveying a woman in a cart to the workhouse when the woman died in the cart. She was clearly not in receipt of relief, not having been admitted to the house, although, if she had lived a short time longer, she would have been. The relieving officer buried the woman at his own expense, and applied to the Guardians to recoup him. He was answered that they had no power to do so, but they referred the case to the Poor Law Commissioners. He (the Earl of Belmore) did not know what reply the Commissioners gave, or whether they had given any answer, but he apprehended that there was only one answer they could give, and that was that they had no power to interfere in the matter. He did not know that there was anything more that he need say, and he hoped that there would be no opposition to the Bill of which he begged to move the second reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Belmore.)
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he looked with suspicion upon Bills to increase the burdens thrown upon the poor rates; and, while he did not object to the principle of the Bill, he thought it ought to have contained some limitations.
Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.