Lords Sitting of 23 April 1866

MINUTES.
Several Lords took the Oath.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Forsyth's Indemnity* (78).
Report—East India Military, &c., Funds Transfer* (75).
Third Reading—Parliamentary Oaths Amendment* (76).
Royal Assent—County Courts; Cattle, &c., Contagious Diseases.

THE CATTLE DISEASES ACT AND ORDER IN COUNCIL OF MARCH 24.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF DERBYdesired to call the attention of the noble Earl the President of the Council (Earl Granville) to a point in the Order in Council of the 24th March which he could not help thinking had been somewhat misinterpreted, or, at all events, that an effect had been given to it which had hardly been contemplated by us framers. Among various very proper provisions which that Order contained was one providing that no dung, hay, straw, or other articles used on farms, either for the food of animals or for or about any infected beasts, should be removed from an infected place without a licence certifying that they had not been in contact with any diseased animal. No one knew better than the noble Earl the President of the Council that farmers in the immediate neighbourhood of London were absolutely dependent upon being able to send their produce into the London market; but under such an Order as this not only no hides, skins, or so forth might be removed, but no articles of food for animals could be removed, a matter entailing great hardship on these farmers. A case had recently happened to Colonel Talbot which had given rise to very great inconvenience. In that case application was made to a magistrate for the ne-
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  cessary licence; but the magistrate replied that though he would be very glad to do anything he could, yet he should not feel justified in taking the responsibility of certifying that the articles sought to be removed had not been in contact with any diseased animal. If it were necessary that the magistrate in each case should have to certify from his own knowledge, it would be absolutely impossible that any traffic could go on; the whole traffic of these farms would be absolutely and entirely put an end to. If the food required for the cattle could not be removed from one part of the farm to another, the cattle would be starved. Even milk necessary for consumption would be prevented from coming into the metropolis. He could not help thinking that this had been carried to an extent beyond what was anticipated by the Order in Council, and he believed some alteration would be necessary, or else the whole of the farms in the neighbourhood of the metropolis would be hermetically sealed. He thought it was necessary to give more enlarged powers to the local authorities, their present powers being insufficient.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it had not been the intention of the Council in making the Order to prevent milk from healthy animals from arriving at its destination. No doubt in all cases of this kind great individual hardship was occasioned for the general good; but he thought there was ground to believe that the magistrate to whom Colonel Talbot applied in this instance was unnecessarily timid. The very essence of the Order was to protect the farmer from the litter and other matters calculated to spread the disease, and the intention of the Privy Council was to allow competent witnesses, such as magistrates living on the spot, to come to a conclusion as to whether it was or was not perfectly safe to allow such things to be removed. After the statement of the noble Earl, he thought there would be no difficulty in Colonel Talbot's obtaining the licence to which he was entitled.
  THE EARL OF DERBYasked, whether it would be necessary to make a separate application to the local authorities for each ton of hay or each load of mangold wurzel, even if it had not been in the neighbourhood of or about any infected animals? If that should be so the application would be a practical impediment to the farmer in carrying on his business.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it would clearly be almost impossible to take up the

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  time of the magistrates with separate applications on account of every single ton of hay or load of produce that had to be removed; but, on the other hand, it would be extremely dangerous to give a licence that would apply to a whole farm.

ABYSSINIA—RELEASE OF BRITISH SUBJECTS IN ABYSSINIA—TELEGRAM FROM COLONEL MEREWETHER.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, as your Lordships take a deep interest in all that concerns the Abyssinian captives, I have no doubt you will allow me to read a dispatch received this day at the Foreign Office. It is from Colonel Merewether, C.B., our Political Resident at Aden, and is dated
  "Aden, March 28, 1866.
  "My Lord,—I have the honour to report for your Lordship's information that the Victoria has just returned from Massowah, bringing news from Mr. Rassam up to the 7th of February, dated from Ajan Muder, in South Western Abyssinia, and stating that the Emperor had given him a most magnificent reception. A regularly constituted Embassy from England could not have been treated with greater honour and attention. A few hours after his first interview with His Majesty, the latter ordered the release of all the European prisoners, including the missionaries and the Frenchmen, and directed that they should all be made over to Mr. Rassam, to take out with him from Abyssinia, which he hoped to leave about the end of March, The King sent his chamberlain to Magdala to unfetter the prisoners, and to bring them to meet Mr. Rassam at Debra Tabor, to which place the latter and his companions were proceeding from the Court, then in Godjam, and where he expected to receive the released captives about the end of February. The Emperor has written a most polite letter to the Queen, which Mr. Rassam felt sure would please Her Majesty and the British nation. The Emperor had also made Mr. Rassam handsome presents, and was preparing more to give to the mission before leaving the country. The above was received at Massowah on the 18th of March. We may, therefore, expect to hear of Mr. Rassam having actually met and received the released captives about the 10th or 12th proximo, when the Victoria will again visit Massowah. I have the honour to be, my Lord, Tour Lordship's most obedient servant,
  "W. L. MEREWETHER,
  "Lieutenant Colonel, Resident."
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory than the despatch just read by the noble Earl. He was only sorry that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Chelmsford), who had taken such interest in this subject, was not in the House to share the gratification which he was sure their Lordships must feel at this early intelligence.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  On the Motion of The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES, it was Ordered—
  "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 29 th Day of June next:
  "That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order of the Board of Health, or authorizing any Inclosure of Lands under Special Report of the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for confirming any Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 29 th Day of June next:
  "That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 29 th Day of June next:
  "That when a Bill shall have passed this House with Amendments, these Orders shall not apply to any new Bill sent up from the House of Commons which the Chairman of Committees shall report to the House is substantially the same as the Bill so amended."

  THE POOR LAW—STRAND UNION WORKHOUSE.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he desired to call the attention of the noble Earl the President of the Council to a subject which had been brought under the notice of the House by a noble Marquess (the Marquess Townshend) a few evenings ago—he referred to the statement with regard to the Strand Union Workhouse. He would not now say anything as to the management of the workhouse, but it was admitted beyond question that the sick wards are small and crowded; and as if to aggravate the matter, a large carpet-beating establishment had been sanctioned under the windows of the sick wards, which was most injurious to the health of those who occupied them. In summer there was no alternative but either to close the windows and suffocate the patients, or to open the windows and to poison them with clouds of dust. His noble Friend, in answer to the noble Marquess, was reported to have said that no complaint of this discreditable state of things had been made by the doctors attached to the workhouse. Now he was informed that complaints had been made over and over again by the doctor who attended the workhouse to the Board of Guardians, and he believed that communications had passed on the subject between the guardians and the Poor Law Board. The late Mr. Wakley, on one occasion when holding an inquest there, was

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  so struck by the bad construction of the buildings that he remonstrated on the subject. The President of the Council had also said that 300 feet of air was the allowance for each person; but he believed that the Poor Law Board required 300 cubic feet of air for each able-bodied person in the dormitories, and that for each person in the sick wards 500 cubic feet was the minimum. Now, he was of opinion that even 500 cubic feet was not sufficient for the necessities of the case. The Military Hospital Commission laid down that 1,200 feet of air was the least that should be allowed, and of course military hospitals were generally better situated than workhouse hospitals. The eminent doctors and surgeons who lately signed a memorandum, which the noble Earl might have seen, on the subject of workhouse infirmaries, had stated that in their opinion not less than 1,000 feet of air was necessary. If he recollected rightly, 900 feet of air was allowed to the convict in his cell. All that would go to show that the allowance of 500 feet was far below the mark, and yet he felt bound to say that in the vast majority of the London workhouses the space allowed was far below that minimum. He believed in the Strand Union there were only two wards which contained more, while the far greater number had even less.
  EARL GRANVILLEthanked his noble Friend for having given him an opportunity of correcting an inaccuracy in connection with this matter. The doctors had never made any representation to the Poor Law Board on the subject in question, but the communication to which he had referred had come from the Board of Guardians, As to the number of cubic feet, his answer was given with regard to the casual wards, to which he understood the question applied, and not to the sick wards. The Poor Law Board required 300 cubic feet for the casual wards; and they added that they required more for the sick wards, without, however, specifying how much more. It would be satisfactory to the noble Earl to hear that a short time ago the Medical Inspector of the Poor Law Board and the architect were desired to make a round of the workhouses in order to make an inspection and report upon this subject.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To morrow, half past Ten o'clock.