Lords Sitting of 11 May 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Companies Workmen's Education * (102) [H.L.]
Committee—District Church Tithes(on re-comm.)* (101) [H.L.]; Record of Title (Ireland)* (97) [H.L.]; Union Officers (Ireland) Superannuation * (52).
Report—Record of Title (Ireland)* (97) [H.L.]; Sheep and Cattle * (58); Union Officers (Ireland) Superannuation * (52).
Third Reading—County Courts Equitable Jurisdiction (98) [H.L.]

COUNTY COURTS EQUITABLE JURISDICTION BILL—(No. 98.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that the County Courts Bill of last Session, among other provisions, proposed to give an equitable jurisdiction to County Courts; but, after much discussion, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack thought it right not to proceed with the measure. If that Bill had not been abandoned, some settlement might have been come to in reference to the provisions in it relating to the credit given to wives and daughters by packmen, and to the frequent commitments and re-commitments for the same trifling debt. The original object of the

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  establishment of County Courts was to provide an easy mode of recovering small debts and demands—they were a kind of courts of conscience, and the time of the Judges was frequently employed in considering what time should be given for the payment of debts of 15 s. or 20 s. Since their first establishment bankruptcy business had been added to the labours and duties of the Judges, and not fewer than 2,000 cases of bankruptcy had passed through their hands. At the present moment, so far as legal power was concerned, they were prohibited from entertaining any question with respect to title, or the construction of settlements and wills. The Bill now before their Lordships proposed to give them equitable jurisdiction up to a certain value; but he ventured to say that in many cases where the amount involved was not considerable, questions would be raised as important in point of law as could possibly occur in any suits brought before the higher courts of equity or law. The ground on which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack introdued the Bill was that the costs in courts of equity in cases of small amount swallowed up the property in dispute. But it was not so much the strict costs of the suit which occasioned the great expense, but the costs resulting from the discussion of extraneous questions which ought never to have been entered upon. The County Court Judges were a learned body of men, but it was no impeachment of their ability to say that they were not competent to discharge the new functions which the Bill would throw upon them. They had never practised in equity, and they would be naturally unable to exercise this equitable jurisdiction with benefit to the suitors. Moreover, he did not think the County Court Judges could devote time enough to the adjudication of matters of equity; and he objected to the principle of taxing the suitors for the purpose of raising the salaries of the Judges. All sorts of powers were given to the Judges, and from their decisions an appeal was to be allowed to the Court of Chancery. Thus, the unhappy suitor would be compelled to begin again in the Court from which he had been ousted, and for the purposes of appeal would have to incur all the expenses of the old procedure. But his great objection to the Bill was the enormous encouragement it would give to litigation. You ought not to go round the
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  country with perambulating courts of equity, stirring up people to litigate, promising them facilities for so doing, and inducing them to resort to equity for all sorts of disputes which otherwise in all probability would be amicably settled. People were generally quite ready enough to go to law at present; and this Bill would give them the means of enforcing every fancied right in cases, nine out of ten of which would, but for the Bill, be settled without resorting to the law at all.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORregretted that his noble and learned Friend had not given credit to their Lordships for recollecting what he had said upon two former occasions. What they had the pleasure of hearing from him now they had heard at some length both on the second reading and also in the Committee on the Bill. He regretted that his noble and learned Friend had thought proper to call in question the competence and knowledge of the Judges of the County Courts. He could assure his noble and learned Friend that he had been quite misinformed upon that point. He could pledge himself to their Lordships that the County Court Judges were a body of men who would bring to the administration of justice under the Bill a large amount of knowledge, as well as great industry and care in the execution of their new jurisdiction. That the new jurisdiction was required was pretty generally admitted, and he should be most happy, provided the Bill passed, if this Session were to be productive of no other amendment of the law. Under the law as it now stood there was an absolute denial of justice to the poorer classes, because the Legislature had made no adequate provision for their case. He would not repeat the arguments he had used on a former occasion, but would content himself with expressing his hope that their Lordships would unanimously pass the Bill.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  THE IMPERIAL GAS COMPANY'S WORKS AT CHELSEA.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDON, in calling Attention to the proposed Additions to the Imperial Gas Company's Works in the immediate Neighbourhood of the National Society's Training School at Chelsea, said, he had been intrusted with three petitions on the subject of a private Bill now be-

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  fore their Lordships' House. One of these petitions was from the parishioners of Fulham, another from the Guardians of the Poor of Fulham, and the third from the National Society's Training School at Chelsea, and in two instances the petitioners were desirous of having their case stated in their Lordships' House. It appeared that the Imperial Gas Company intended, by means of a Private Bill now in that House, to obtain powers greatly to increase the works at present in operation in the neighbourhood of the National Society's Training School. The Bill had passed through the other House without any attention being directed to it, purely as he had been given to understand, through some mistake. The parishioners—particularly those who represented the Board of Health of the parish of Fulham—felt that there was a serious grievance in the case. The works had been now for some years in operation to a limited extent; but even so the most serious mischief had arisen both to life and property in the neighbourhood—so much so that legal proceedings were not long since taken to mitigate the evils that had arisen. Mr. Broadbent, a market gardener, took legal proceedings in 1856 in consequence of the injury which his property had sustained, and he proved that his gardens were so much injured that produce which formerly fetched £150 was then disposed of for £20. In the course of the case certain medical authorities stated what, in their opinion, would be the probable effect of the great nuisance complained of. The clergymen and other residents presented a memorial to the Chelsea vestry in 1856, when the mischief was much less than at present, in which they complained of—
  "Most serious injury to health and property. At all times (they continued) we are exposed to the risk of breathing an air impregnated with gas, which is allowed to escape and contaminate the atmosphere. Almost every night the discharge of fœtid matter from the works of the manufactory causes to many of us a painful difficulty of breathing, disturbed sleep, nausea, and headache."
  When medical authorities were examined in the case it was stated that among the effects produced were—
  "Extreme lassitude and depression of spirits, frightful nightmare, dreams, nausea and sickness in the morning, loss of appetite, inaptitude for business, a filthy stench, as if some indescribable nastiness were being constantly inhaled. In the morning (for it is during the night that the exhalations are most active) the air is often evidently saturated with impurity, and even the cur-
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  tains and hangings in bedchambers are described as being, in some states of the wind, covered with a filthy gaseous slime."
  Dr. Taylor, the celebrated Professor of Chemistry and Medical Jurisprudence of Guy's Hospital, observed that in the manufacture of gas—
  "Ammoniacal gas, sulphurous acid, sulphuretted hydrogen, or hydro-sulphuric acid gas, coally and tarry matter, soot, and carbon, are evolved. Sulphuretted hydrogen is a most offensive and nauseous gas, and creates a sickening and nauseous smell. It is liable to be evolved in the manufacture of gas, and so affect the health of those living in the vicinity."
  The result of the law proceedings was that, under the authority of the Courts, the evils were mitigated. Those evils had arisen at a time when the gasworks were not one-tenth of the size to which they were now proposed to be extended, and therefore if the Bill now before the House were passed, the evil would be aggravated tenfold. The petitioners in the case had some little doubt how to proceed, because the Bill was a Private one; but there was no doubt that it carried with it very important public interests. Even if it were private interests only that were affected, their Lordships would be anxious that injustice should not be done. The Bill, however, was fairly described as a Bill for destroying life and property in the parishes of Fulham and Chelsea. Though residing in Fulham himself for a portion of the year, it was not from private considerations that he had come forward. Much as property would be injured in the parish it would not be difficult to sell it and purchase a commodious residence at a distance. But the property he now alluded to really belonged to the Church, and it was a serious matter, as regarded the estate vested in the See of London, if the property should be materially deteriorated. Their Lordships would see that it was not likely that first-class residences would be erected in the neighbourhood if these nuisances wore perpetuated. It was not merely from private reasons, therefore, that he urged their Lordships not to give their assent to a Bill which, among other things would destroy a neighbourhood which had been historical now for 800 years. Mr. Veitch, the well-known florist, whose greenhouses and nurseries closely adjoined the gasworks, had invested upwards of £40,000 in buildings and plants, and was therefore naturally in alarm lest his property should be ruined, which would be the case if the proposed Bill

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  were to pass. Their Lordships had been anxious to prevent the emission of noxious gases, and a couple of years ago, in reference to certain kinds of works, had passed a Bill with that object, the operation of which had been attended with many advantages to the residents in the neighbourhood of such works. It would be a much easier process not to allow this monstrous nuisance to be created than to bring actions against the company when the works were completed. He had been told that one consideration which weighed with Private Bill Committees was this, that when gasworks were once established they felt a delicacy in preventing their extension. But it was the extension of the evil which made the nuisance intolerable. Gasworks which were to cover 150 acres and which were to pour into the Thames, which Parliament was endeavouring to cleanse, those noxious and filthy gases, certainly became a public nuisance, and required to have public attention directed to them. The National Society's Training School for Schoolmasters, which petitioned against the Bill, educated a large number of students. At the present moment there were in the day-schools no less than 611 boys' names on the registers, and more than 500 scholars were in daily attendance. It might be said that as these were only day scholars they were only exposed for a period of the day to these noxious influences. But there were besides 103 students—the future schoolmasters of the country—who were compelled to pass both day and night in this neighbourhood. It was the prayer of the managers of the training school that their Lordships would interpose to prevent what was so deleterious to the health of the public as well as the inmates of the institution. The medical officer to the college had given a certificate, declaring that the inmates of St. Mark's College had for some time suffered from the annoyance and inconvenience of the noxious effluvium arising from the gasworks of the Imperial Company closely adjoining the college.
  "Should this nuisance be continued or increased (the medical officer stated) I am fearful that it will be very detrimental to the health of its inmates. I have seen very lately a case of illness produced by the inhalation of gaseous emanations, causing headache, feverishness, and relaxed throat with general debility."
  The sum of £46,986 had been expended in purchasing the site and erecting the buildings of the Training Institution. Of
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  that sum the Committee of Council on Education granted £8,925 out of the public funds, but all the rest had been raised by the National Society and its friends. The managers of the Training Institution prayed that their Lordships would not allow this Bill to pass, and if it had passed through Committee they were bold enough to hope that a Motion would be made to throw out the Bill on the third reading, and thus prevent a great public evil from being inflicted on the metropolis.
  LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, he had also been intrusted with a petition from the vicar, churchwardens, and overseers against the Gas Bill. He might observe that the reason why the Bill had passed through the other house was partly per incuriam, and partly owing to the temporary indisposition of the vestry clerk of the district. A nuisance of the kind was very much a question of degree. Gasworks might be to a certain extent innocuous, but the case was altered when works of almost unheard of magnitude were about to be undertaken. Such an extension of the works naturally caused great apprehension in an improving neighbourhood. The public grievance was indeed so great that unless otherwise advised he should be disposed, when the Bill came before their Lordships for a third reading, to move its rejection on public grounds.

  COMPANIES WORKMENS' EDUCATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to enable certain Corporations and Companies to provide for the Education and Religious Instruction of their Workmen—Was presented by The Lord Archbishop of York; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 102.)
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.