Lords Sitting of 5 May 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Isle of Man (Disafforestation) Compensation* (91).
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Public Schools* (32) [H.L.] Lord Wrottesley added.
Committee—Land Drainage Supplemental* (74); Local Government Supplemental* (72); Local Governmental Supplemental (No. 2)* (73).
Report—Land Drainage Supplemental* (74); Local Government Supplemental* (72); Local Government Supplemental (No. 2)* (73).
Third Reading—Common Law Courts (Fees)* (25), and passed; Inclosure* (64); Herring Fisheries (Scotland)* (48), and passed.

LEONARD EDMUNDS, ESQ.—RESIGNATION OF CERTAIN OFFICES.

  THE REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, seeing the noble Earl the President of the Council in his place, I wish to call his attention to a matter of some importance with respect to the Select Committee over which he has lately presided. In the proceedings of that Committee your Lordships will have observed that two divisions taken towards the latter end of the Report were taken on two distinct paragraphs of that Report. On the first of the paragraphs in the draft Report a noble Lord (Lord Taunton) moved an Amendment, which was carried by a narrow majority. Upon the second paragraph the same noble Lord moved another Amendment, which was carried by the same small majority. But in the Report as it appears it would seem that the whole of the two Amendments were consolidated into one, and that they were carried against the first paragraph of the draft Report. If that had been the case it would have made the second paragraph of the Report absurd, because it was in pari materia, and the only difference was as to the manner in which we should express our opinion substantially with regard to the course taken by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. Our opinion was not very different with regard to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack; but as the Report stands it would appear that the minority appeared to object, which they certainly did not, to the declaration embodied in Lord Taunton's Amendment to the second paragraph, acquitting the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack altogether of being actuated by any unworthy motives in the course he had pursued. We thought the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had committed an error in judgment, and had taken a wrong view of his duty; but both the minority and the majority were perfectly prepared to acquit him of improper or unworthy motives.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am much obliged to the noble Earl for having mentioned this subject to the House. It struck me this morning, in reading the Report,
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  that the second paragraph, as printed, in I casting an imputation upon the noble and learned Lord's conduct, was a mistake. That mistake has been clearly described by the noble Earl. I have been in communication with the Clerk of the Committee who committed the mistake, and who expresses his regret for the error. I am bound to state that the gentleman who acted as clerk discharges his duties with remarkable intelligence; but it was quite natural, from the manner in which the Amendments were put, that this mistake should have occurred. Under the circumstances, I think the best course will be to have the Report corrected and delivered in the amended form on Monday.

THE DEFENCES OF CANADA.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEasked, Whether negotiations were still pending between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Canada on the subject of the defences of Canada; and, if so, whether, after negotiations shall have been concluded, the papers relating to them would be laid I before Parliament? The noble Earl said, that when this very important subject was brought at an early period of the Session under the attention of the House, the impression on his mind was that an arrangement had been made between the Government of Canada and that of Her Majesty, by which we were to undertake the erection of certain defensive works, and Canada was to undertake to find men to defend them, and also to contribute something towards the expense of constructing the projected works. It now appeared that that was a wrong impression, and that no such arrangement had been made; for since that discussion a debate on the subject had taken place in the Canadian Assembly, and no resolution was come to with respect to the works; the debate was adjourned, and he understood that two gentlemen from Canada had come over to this country to confer with the Government on the subject of the confederation of the British North American Provinces, and also to enter into arrangements with the Government, if possible, with respect to the defences of Canada. This being the case, it seemed desirable that the Government should make some declaration, not as to the amount of money to be expended on the works, or as to the points where they were to be erected, but as to the principle and

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  basis of the proposed arrangement. From speeches made by the two gentlemen he had referred to, Mr. Gait and Mr. Cartier, and from the declarations made in the Parliament of this country, it appeared that Canada and the British Government were very much of one mind in respect to this matter, and he was of opinion that nothing could be more satisfactory than the tone of the speeches of Mr. Gait and Mr. Cartier, who declared that Canada ought to bear a considerable share of the burdens of her own defences. In such a case he thought that the Government were bound to recognize the obligation of standing by Canada in the event—which he trusted might never happen—of Canada being invaded. Other speeches had been delivered in the Canadian House of Assembly by persons who thought that it was no part of the duty of Canada to take any of those reasonable precautions which had been suggested, and that if war broke out the whole burden should be assumed by the mother country. If it were clearly the desire of the Canadians to remain connected with this country, and to take their fair share in the defence of Canada if it were attacked or invaded, then it would be the duty of this country, undoubtedly, to render them assistance; but if such was not the wish of the Canadian people then it could not be possible for this country to defend Canada; and if it were possible it would clearly not be their duty to burden themselves with the expense of defending a country so devoid of public spirit. He wished that those who were desirous to throw upon the mother country the whole burden of the defence of Canada would profit by the example of a similar case—namely, that of the small but flourishing Kingdom of Belgium. The great Powers of Europe had guaranteed the neutrality of Belgium and had entered into a solemn pledge to assist her in the event of her being invaded. But Belgium did not rely entirely on these guarantees. She maintained an efficient army, respectable in number considering the smallness of her population. She had also expended large sums of money upon the fortifications of Antwerp. She did this, knowing that if she had not an army and fortifications sufficiently strong to stay the progress of an invader in the first instance, it might so happen that the liberties of Belgium might be overthrown before any of the great Powers could come to her assistance. He need hardly say that this argument ap-
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  plied with still greater force to Canada than to Belgium, separated as she was by 3,000 miles of ocean from the mother country, end considering that during a great portion of the year she was inaccessible to the fleet of Great Britain. He should like to be allowed to say a few words as to speeches which from time to time had been delivered in their Lordships' House, proposing to abandon altogether the defence of Canada as hopeless against invasion, and to throw the whole burden of defence upon the Canadians themselves. In a discussion which took place in that House last Session, on the affairs of New Zealand, some noble Lords, not satisfied with telling the colonists of New Zealand that they must not expect aid without submitting to a certain heavy impost, went on to tell their Lordships that Canada could hope for no assistance from this country in case of invasion unless she submitted to an expenditure far beyond her ability. He (the Earl of Airlie) happened at that time to be going to Canada, and actually sailed in the steamer which conveyed the newspapers containing those speeches; he had, therefore, the best opportunity of witnessing the effect produced both in Canada and the United States upon those speeches being read by the populations of both countries. In Canada it was quite clear that the people became disheartened. They said that they were anxious to maintain their connection with Great Britain, but they saw by the language lately held in the House of Lords that the mother country was only anxious for an opportunity to turn them adrift, and was looking out for a reasonable excuse for so doing. The effect in the United States was worse, if that were possible. The reports of those speeches were re-printed in the American newspapers, accompanied with exulting comments, the purport of which was that the time was when England stood by her colonies to the last, but that time had gone by, and that it was quite evident that England would now do anything to avoid war. It was most painful for him to think that the texts for comments of that kind should have been speeches delivered in their Lordships' House. Their Lordships had further learned that speeches had been made elsewhere—he supposed he must not say where—in which people were told that if Canada were to be defended at all the best mode of doing so would be to withdraw the British troops and to seek for some vulnerable point elsewhere to

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  attack the invaders. It was not difficult to foretel the construction which would be put abroad upon speeches of that kind. It would be said that after the withdrawal of the British troops people who were of this opinion would be apt to discover that it would be difficult to reach the vulnerable points of the enemy, and that the best plan would be to leave Canada to its fate. It was not by so fainthearted a policy that this great Empire had been founded, nor did he think that such speeches tended to maintain a friendly understanding with the United States. Now, in reference to the United States, he believed that the Government of that country was sincerely desirous of maintaining friendly relations with us; and he had seen with much satisfaction the address of the now President to Her Majesty's representative at Washington. Nevertheless, we knew very well that there was a party in the United States who avowedly were unfriendly to us; and it appeared to him that the speeches to which he had referred could not fail to have the effect of strengthening the power of that party, and of greatly embarrassing the Government of the United States, however friendly it might wish to be towards this country. In mentioning the United States Government it was impossible not to revert, at least in thought, to him whose career had been cut short by the atrocious crime which had excited such horror and detestation in this country—a sentiment fully reciprocated in Canada, where the Governor General had ordered that the flags should be hoisted half-mast high at all the military stations, and there were general demonstrations of sympathy among the Canadians. In New York the sympathy shown by Canada had been much appreciated, and it was some consolation to find that the sympathies of the whole Anglo-Saxon race were called forth by this melancholy event. He rejoiced at this wide-spread expression of sympathy, not only because as an Englishman he set the highest value upon the friendship and alliance of the United States and thought that war between the two countries would be disastrous, but because he had himself received so much kindness at the hands of Americans, and had seen so much in the national character which was worthy of respect, that he could not but feel a kindly interest in the welfare and happiness of this great people. As to the civil war, terrible as its effects had been, it had drawn out in strong relief the great quali-
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  ties of individuals on both sides; and it must be a source of heartfelt satisfaction to see that by its means they were likely to see an end of the institution which had been a source of injury to the white race, while it had depressed and degraded the black population. Nobody supposed that the war was undertaken in the first instance for the abolition of slavery, but nobody could doubt that that would be the result of the war. Notwithstanding that great and good man the late President of the United States declared in the earlier period of the war, on more than one occasion, that he had no power under the constitution to interfere with the institution of slavery, yet having, in the first instance, adopted the principle of emancipation, he felt bound in conscience and good faith to adhere to and carry out that principle to the utmost extent. It was not in keeping with the dignity of this country nor the honour of Canada that that great colony should be dependent for its security upon the moderation and forbearance of any foreign Power. This was a favourable time for taking measures for defence, for we could set about it without being liable to the charge of acting under the influence of panic; and he hoped the Canadian delegates, who were now here would, upon their return home, succeed in impressing their countrymen with the absolute necessity of co-operating with this country in the great work of placing the defence of Canada, both with regard to men and works, in a satisfactory position. He desired to ask, Whether negotiations were still pending between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Canada on the subject of the defences of Canada; and, if so, whether, after the negotiations had been concluded, the papers relating to them would be laid before Parliament?
  EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he quite agreed with his noble Friend (the Earl of Airlie) in his estimate of the importance of the question to which he had adverted, and it was for that very reason that he hoped his noble Friend would forgive him if he was unable to reply in detail to the questions which he addressed to him. Four members of the Canadian Administration had recently arrived in London for the purpose of consulting with Her Majesty's Government as to various questions connected with the North American Provinces, and especially as to those questions with regard to the defence of Canada which had engaged the attention of Parlia-

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  ment during the present Session. It must be obvious to their Lordships that it was not desirable, at a period when those communications had commenced and were still going on, that Her Majesty's Government should enter into any details with regard to a matter which was still the subject of negotiation. All he could say then was that these negotiations were still going on, and that the representatives of the Canadian Government who had come over to this country appeared to be fully impressed with the magnitude and importance of the question and the duty which lay upon Canada with regard to it. When those negotiations were brought to a close it would be the duty of Her Majesty's Government to take an early opportunity of informing Parliament of the nature of those communications and the results at which they had arrived.

  SELECT COMMITTEES.—RESOLUTION.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, he had a Resolution to move, the object of which was to give to that House some control over the appointment of its own Committees—for at present no such control existed. In the House of Commons a similar want had been felt for many years, but it was at last fully and completely removed. He begged to move—
  "That with regard to Select Committees of this House, other than those on Private Bills, Notice of any Motion for naming the Lords to serve on such Committee, or for adding any Lord to such Committee, or for substituting any other Lord for any Lord named on such Committee, shall be given and entered among the printed Notices for the Day or previous to the Day on which such Motion shall be made."—(The Earl Stanhope.)
  Motion agreed to.

CASE OF COLONEL JOHNSON.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL VANE,in rising to call the attention of the House to the charges brought against Colonel Johnson, a magistrate of the county of Durham, said, that he regretted the absence of the noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) who on a former occasion, in moving for correspondence on the subject of Mr. Dockrall's detention in the lunatic asylum, had, he ventured to say, adopted against Colonel Johnson an ex-parte statement. He was quite sure that no one in such a case would be more ready to retract the charges he had made than his noble Friend. All men were liable to errors of judgment, and he did not mean
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  to say that his friend, Colonel Johnson, had not been guilty of an informality in signing the committal of the late Mr. Dock-rail to an asylum without having seen him on that particular occasion. But Colonel Johnson, in order to show how much he regretted that informality, was prepared to indemnify the unfortunate man for what he had done, for he offered a sum of £80, £30 as the costs of the suit which had been undertaken, and £50 for himself. The charge which his noble Friend had brought against Colonel Johnson was this—that he had sent to the lunatic asylum of Sedge-field Mr. Dockrall, a man who was perfectly sane, and who ought never to have been sent to such a place at all. Now, Colonel Johnson had known this man for years; his family were in the habit of dealing with him and the unfortunate state of Dockrall's mind was notorious, not only to Colonel Johnson but to every individual in the neighbourhood. But the worst part of the charge was founded upon a letter from the father of the man—namely, that Colonel Johnson had entered into a conspiracy with the wife of Dockrall, who was a bad woman, in order to keep him in prison. He knew Colonel Johnson to be an honourable man, and a magistrate of thirty years' standing, and their Lordships must agree that he was much aggrieved by the stigma cast upon him. At the last Quarter Sessions for Durham he (Earl Vane) moved a resolution, which was carried by the whole Bench, affirming that, however much the Bench might regret the informality which Colonel Johnson had committed, they were satisfied that he was only actuated by the kindest motives towards the unfortunate man.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would merely observe that, as there was a pending action yet undisposed of against Colonel Johnson, he must wait until that was decided before he could take notice of the matter.
  LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, that having been acquainted with Colonel Johnson for forty years, he would affirm that he was a most honourable man both in his private and magisterial capacity, and he must express his belief that he had been actuated in this matter by the best and purest motives. He trusted that when the pending action should be disposed of the Lord Chancellor would consent to lay the correspondence before their Lordships, in order to clear the character of Colonel Johnson.
  LORD CHELMSFORDthought that his noble and learned Friend must be under some misapprehension in regard to the action said to be still pending. If he understood aright, an action of tort had been brought against Colonel Johnson—an action to recover damages. Such an action, however, died with the person, and could not be revived by the executors, and as this unfortunate man was dead, there could be no pending action at the present moment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that in certain cases the representatives of the deceased would be entitled to revive the action for recovering the expenses. He was informed that a suit was now pending in the Court of Probate to determine to whom letters of administration should be granted. If they were granted to the father, the action might be revived. At present, therefore, he did not think it proper to take any proceedings to investigate the charges against Colonel Johnson.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.