Lords Sitting of 30 March 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Metalliferous Mines [H.L.] (49); Marine Mutiny *; Mutiny *; Consolidated Fund (£15,000,000) *; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders Confirmation* (50).
Report—Private Bill Costs (47).
Third Reading—Colonial Naval Defence (39), and passed.

METALLIFEROUS MINES BILL, 1865.

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING. (No. 49.)
  LORD KINNAIRD,in presenting a Bill making provision for enabling persons engaged in working certain metalliferous mines to do so with greater regard to health and safety, said, that the usual practice was to lay a Bill upon the table without making any statement of its object at that stage, to defer any observations until the Bill came on for second reading but on this occasion he should pursue a different course, and ask the attention of their Lordships for a few moments while he explained the object of the measure. In the Session of 1860 a Bill was brought before their Lordships
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  for the regulation and inspection of mines, which gave rise to some discussion. During the progress of the Bill in the other House all reference to metalliferous mines and iron stone mines not in coal measures was excluded, but a pledge was given by the Government that an inquiry should be instituted into the state of those mines. In 1862 that pledge was redeemed, and a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire and to report as to the health and safety of the persons employed in lead, tin, copper, and iron-stone mines not in the coal measures. He had the honour of being Chairman of that Commission, which devoted two years to a very searching and laborious inquiry into the condition of the miners working in mines of that description; and the result was that at the end of last Session a Report, agreed to unanimously by the Commissioners, was presented to Parliament. The inquiry brought out a very fearful state of mortality amongst the metalliferous miners. On comparing the mortality of miners with that of other classes in the same district, they found that between the ages of thirty-five and fifty-five there were double the number of deaths among the miners. They also ascertained that this did not arise from the immediate effect of working underground, because on comparing the Returns of the Registrar General of the deaths in the colliery districts in the north of England they found that the colliers in those districts were more healthy and longlived, notwithstanding the numerous accidents that occurred, than any other class of workmen in the country. It was true that the colliers were somewhat better fed than the metal miners; but it was clearly proved that the metal miners were suffering from something especial in connection with their employment; and it was also clearly proved that the difference was owing to the better system of ventilation which was in practice in the collieries. In the collieries it was absolutely necessary that there should be a perfect system of ventilation, or explosions would take place; but in the metal mines there was no danger of explosion, and consequently ventilation was much neglected. The Commissioners employed scientific men to examine the air in the (nines; they obtained upwards of 300 specimens of air, and had them submitted to the tests of science, and the result was that a large proportion of the air in these mines was found to be totally unfit for men to work in.

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  The Commissioners also had many of the miners examined by medical men, who all agreed in saying that this fearful state of disease and mortality was principally owing to the want of ventilation. It might have been expected that the men employed in these mines would be strong and muscular; on the contrary, the miners were found to be pale and emaciated, few reaching middle age without showing symptoms of disease. It was a common expression that a man of fifty was an old man for a miner. There were other causes also which tended to produce this melancholy state of things. In collieries the men on returning from work wore lifted by a hoist, but the metal miners had to climb 1,200 or 1,600 feet after the fatigues of an exhausting labour. When they got to the top they were in a state of such exhaustion and profuse perspiration that they easily took cold, and having no proper place in which to change their clothes, much sickness and many deaths were occasioned. The miners themselves gave up all hope of being cured, and no provision was made for any who were out of work owing to sickness. Certain deductions were made from their wages as an assurance against accidents and to obtain the services of a doctor, but no benefit society would admit miners, no provision was made for them when off work, and they had no resource but to fall back upon the poor rates. The Commissioners did not think it desirable to point out how these evils were to be remedied, but the necessity for legislation was clearly established. It was, he admitted, a difficult subject to deal with, but having given much attention to it, and having lived among the miners for two months, during which time, as well as during the entire period of the existence of the Commission, he was constantly underground, he was prepared to show that the evils under which these men laboured might be remedied. Such a state of things as that which now existed could not be allowed to continue, and he had, therefore, prepared this Bill. But he wished to state that he presented this measure to their Lordships entirely on his own responsibility; he had not submitted it either to the other Commissioners or to the Government, but he trusted it would receive the support, not of Parliament only, but of the mining interest; because many persons connected with mining were totally ignorant, till this inquiry took place, of the state of things existing among the
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  men, and when the inquiry was being made the Commissioners met with most cordial support from those who were interested in mines, who were quite willing to give every information, and who admitted that some legislation was necessary. He would not go at length into the details of the measure, because that would be done at the second reading; but he might state that it was not proposed to imitate the system of inspection instituted under the Mines and Collieries Act, which, he thought, would be objectionable. First, they would not be able to obtain for the salaries that could be given the services of men as Inspectors, possessing the same experience and qualifications as many of those who have now the charge of the mines and upon whom the responsibility should rest; next, because the metalliferous mines were so much scattered that an immense staff of Inspectors would be required; and lastly, because an Inspector resident on the spot would give rise to suspicion. There was great speculation in mines—the prospect of many mines varied from day to day, and if there were any resident Inspector he might be tempted to give information, and if he did not he would be suspected of giving it. But what he proposed was that there should be a Board or Department under the Government, somewhat similar to the Railway Department of the Board of Trade, and there was in the Office of the School of Mines an admirable nucleus for carrying out the provisions of the Bill. He thought this proposition would meet with the concurrence of the mining interest. It was proposed the mines should not be under regulations prescribed by Act of Parliament, on account of the difficulty of I making one regulation answer all the mines, but it was proposed that the Board should inquire into the state of the different mines, and have full power to direct what was necessary for the health and I safety of the miners. And the Report, he thought, would point out upon what points it was necessary to have regulations. He did not wish to press the measure forward, I but to give full time to all who were interested to consider it. The mining interest was a very important interest; it was at this moment suffering under great depression owing to the state of things in the United States; but he ventured to think that if the propositions in the Report were carried out, not only the mining interest would be benefited, but their Lordships

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  would have the satisfaction of feeling that they were promoting the welfare and lengthening the lives of one of the most industrious, well-conducted, moral, and religious classes of Her Majesty's subjects.
  Bill relating to Metalliferous Mines presented; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 49).

PRIVATE BILL COSTS BILL—(No. 47.)

  REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order.)
  LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE moved a New Clause—
  "Where, in accordance with the Standing Orders of either House of Parliament and of an Act of the Ninth Year of Her present Majesty, Chapter Twenty, a Deposit of Money or Stock is made with respect to the Application to Parliament for an Act, the Money or Stock so deposited shall be a Security for the Payment by the Promoters of the Bill for the Act of all Costs or Sums in respect of Costs, if any, payable by them under this Act; and every Party entitled to receive any Costs or Sum so payable, shall accordingly have a Lien available in Equity for the same on the Money or Stock so deposited, and the Lien shall attach thereon at the Time when the Bill is first referred to a Committee of either House of Parliament; provided that where several Parties have the Lien for an Amount exceeding in the Aggregate the net value of the Money or Stock their respective claims shall proportionately abate."
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYopposed the clause. The money deposited with a private Bill was deposited as a security that the proposed works would be executed, whereas by this clause this money would be made applicable to an entirely different purpose. Besides, to require money to be deposited as security for costs was an entirely novel principle, for it was one not adopted even in the courts of law.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, that though the clause in itself might be a good one it was not germane to this Bill, and, if adopted, might imperil the measure. The Bill ought to be kept strictly within its own purposes and for its own objects; and he therefore trusted that if the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees thought the object of his clause a good one, he would find a better opportunity of proposing it.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHdid not think his noble Friend's clause was open to the objection which had been made to it by the noble Lord the Postmaster General; because it was well understood that the money deposited with a Private Bill was no
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  real security for the execution of the works.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORthought that the proposition of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees would not operate at all unreasonably in the cases in which a Bill happened to be rejected; but in the event of a Bill passing, it would certainly be open to objection that a lien on the deposits should be given. He hoped, therefore, the noble Lord would re-consider the matter, and bring up the clause in a modified shape on the third reading.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that in accordance with what appeared to be the general wish of the House, he would, on a subsequent stage of the Bill, bring up a clause the operation of which should be limited to those cases in which a Bill was lost.
  An Amendment made; Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed, as amended (No. 51.)

COLONIAL NAVAL DEFENCE BILL.

  (No. 39.) THIRD READING.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he thought it would be hardly right to allow the Bill to pass through the House without saying that it would honourably distinguish the administration of his noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty even though he had rendered the country no other service. It was a measure which had for its object to assist our colonies in undertaking their own naval defence, and it was but just to them that we should, while calling upon them to expend considerable sums in providing for their protection in a military point of view, aid them by taking a step which would place them in a position of comparative safety, not merely against the operations of regular warfare, but against the attacks of those privateers which, at the opening of a war, might make an attack upon their commerce.
  Bill read 3a, with the Amendment, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  THE SAFFRON HILL MURDER—CASE OF PELIZZIONI.—QUESTION.
  LORD HOUGHTON,in rising to put a Question to the Government on this subject, said, that he would in a few words explain the object of his inquiry, but it was unnecessary that he should enter at length into the circumstances of the mur-

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  der which was supposed to have been committed by a foreigner named Serafino Pelizzioni on the person of a man named Harrington. After Pelizzioni had been found guilty of that crime and condemned to death, another Italian named Gregorio Mogni confessed that he was the culprit, and mainly through the agency of a benevolent Italian gentleman, Mr. Negretti, the matter was so strongly pressed on the authorities that Gregorio was put upon his trial for the same offence, and was convicted mainly on his own confession that he had used the knife freely, not of murder, but of manslaughter. A respite was, in consequence, granted to Pelizzioni, who was now lying in prison awaiting his second trial, But it had been stated elsewhere that it was the intention of the Government to place Pelizzioni again on his trial on the charge of having stabbed another person in the same fray, he believed, in which Harrington had met his death. That was a point upon which of course their Lordships could pronounce no opinion; but it had been represented to him that there was a strong feeling among the Italians resident in London that Pelizzioni would be placed at a disadvantage by being in custody, because if he had been at liberty he would have been taken before a magistrate, the witnesses would have' been examined afresh, and he would have had an opportunity of cross-examining them. He need not impress upon their Lordships the importance of avoiding in the case of a foreigner any appearance of prejudice or unfairness—more especially after the late very painful correspondence between Mr. Negretti and Sir Richard I Mayne, in which the former philanthropically contended for what he believed to be right, and the latter with equal zeal defended the force which he so ably commanded. He would, in conclusion, ask, Whether, if Serafino Pelizzioni, now lying in prison under respite from Her Majesty, be arraigned for a fresh offence, care will be taken that he should have all the Opportunities and Advantages of Defence that he would have had if he were at liberty?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he did not exactly understand under what disadvantages it was feared that Pelizzioni would labour. No obstacle would be thrown in the way of his defence by the authorities, and every care would be taken that justice should be properly administered.
  LORD HOUGHTONexplained that the fear was that Pelizzioni might suffer from not having the witnesses examined afresh before a magistrate, and thus being able to cross-examine them, and to place himself in a totally unprejudiced position.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the noble Lord might rest assured that every fair opportunity of defence would be accorded to the prisoner, and he would not suffer from having been convicted upon another charge.

  THE EASTER HOLYDAYS.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that it might be convenient to their Lordships to know that on Friday the 7th of April he should move the adjournment of the House till the 27th of that month.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.