Lords Sitting of 27 March 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Colonial Naval Defence (39).
Committee—Private Bill Costs* (47).
Report—Bankruptcy and Insolvency (Ireland) Act Amendment (20).
Third Reading—Affirmations (Scotland)* (37); Perth Provisional Order Confirmation* (38), and passed.

IRELAND (CATHARINE GAUGHRAN).

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHsaid, he had to bring under their Lordships' notice a case arising out of an investigation

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  that took place on the 25th of February, before the Petty Sessions at Colooney, in the county of Sligo. The young woman, of whose assault and ill-treatment the magistrates took cognizance, was named Catharine Gaughran. She was a young person of sixteen years of age, born in Scotland of Irish parents. She remained in Scotland until she was about sixteen years of age, when, her parents being dead, she was invited by her so-called guardians, her uncle and aunt, to return to Ireland. She did so, and went to service in a town near Colooney. She had been a Roman Catholic; but having attained to years of discretion, she changed her religion in Scotland and became a Protestant. The manner in which she gave her evidence was such as to convince the magistrates that she was well able to judge for herself. She took service in a Protestant family, and was there visited by her uncle and aunt, who endeavoured to persuade her to change her religion. She refused, and they then called in a Roman Catholic priest, who assured her she was going to hell, and pressed her to return to her own faith; but she still refused, saying that in Scotland she had acquired a taste for reading the Bible. Her aunt thereupon, in the house of this Protestant, violently assaulted her, by kneeling upon her, and otherwise using her most inhumanly. On the 20th of January she was sent on an errand, but was hunted out of the house to which she was sent. Her aunt dragged her by the hair of her head, and other persons assisted to drag her along the broken stones of the road for several yards. Four of the police were present while this was going on, and were appealed to, but in vain, to take her out of the hands of those persons. A sub-inspector, named Burke, was looking out of the window of his house, and saw the assault. He was called upon by a Mr. Simpson to interfere, but he never stirred. "No," said the police, "It is a family matter, and we cannot interfere." The poor girl was hunted into the house of a man named Hart, and was there detained until the evening of the following day. She was then rescued by a magistrate's warrant, obtained by the Protestant minister of the place. An investigation, which occupied four or five days, took place at Colooney, before four magistrates—two Roman Catholics and two Protestants. The aunt was found guilty, and sentenced to be imprisoned for one month, and some of the wretched boys who were
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  concerned in the assault and had been no doubt instigated by the priest were imprisoned for two or four months, with hard labour. Three out of the four constables were found guilty of neglect of duty; the sub-inspector was fined £2, while the magistrates left, as they said, his particular case in the hands of the Government. If a Government really existed in Ireland there could be no doubt that it was bound to take notice of the misconduct of the police; for, if the constabulary were not bound to discharge their duty, irrespective of the wishes of Roman Catholic clergymen, the British dominion in Ireland would be nothing but a myth. But so far from the sub-inspector, who had so grossly misconducted himself, being dismissed, he believed he had escaped punishment altogether, except as to the fine of £2inflicted by the magistrates. It might be said by some parties that he was sensitive with regard to what he regarded as Roman Catholic encroachments, and he admitted that such was the case; but he certainly never complained without reason. He was of Roman Catholic lineage himself, and had many friends and relatives belonging to that religion. In 1825 and 1826, though not then in Parliament, he assisted the Roman Catholics to obtain that measure of justice to which he believed them entitled; and at that time no form of protestation was too strong for them to make that no danger to the Protestant institutions of the country could arise from the concessions which were then made. But now-a-days men seemed to glory in the overthrow of the Established Church, as a matter which was not only possible, but must be near at hand. Their Lordships had only to look at what was going on around them every day to be convinced that that was the fact. There was the case of Mary Ryan, in which the right hon. Gentleman, whose duty it was to look after such matters, had taken no steps, or shown the slightest disposition, to grapple with the parties who had violated the law. The right hon. Gentleman said the persons—miscreants of both sexes he (the Marquess of Westmeath) would call them—who were charged with taking this helpless woman beyond the seas and burying her alive, had no bad motive for it. If they had no bad motive, why was a law put on the statute book to punish the offence? The fact was that the right hon. Gentleman dived into people's motives for the purpose of saving himself from the trouble of doing

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  his duty. Another recent case was that of Eliza M'Dermott, a girl who was surreptitiously decoyed from her mother and conveyed to one of these pandemoniums. And now this poor girl in Ireland was obliged to leave the country, as she could no longer remain there in safety. Was that no proof of the powerlessness of the law in Ireland? Revise the Liturgy, banish the pews and crinolines into the galleries, which is their proper place. Give up the body of the parish churches to the people, to whom they belong. He would here say a few words with all respect and affection to the right rev. Bench. Revise the Liturgy, conciliate the Independants and the Wesleyans into the Church. Banish the pews and the crinolines out of the body of the parish churches into the galleries, for the body of the church belongs to the people, and pews are an usurpation. Now, the real question which he wished to bring before their Lordships was whether the constabulary in Ireland were or were not to carry out the law irrespective of any private interests or personal influences? In the present case the Lord Lieutenant appeared to have taken no action whatever. If he did not know the merits of the case, he must have allowed himself to be betrayed by the police. Regarding the uselessness of the office of Lord Lieutenant, he had often expressed an opinion. The Lord Lieutenant was in the receipt of £20,000 a year, and he had since he went over to Ireland received something like fifty deputations, every one of which, with a single exception—that upon the subject of the Shannon navigation—asked to be exonerated from some obligation, or for a share of the public money. Such was the way in which the government of Ireland was carried on; and he had deemed it to be his duty to lay the present case before their Lordships—and he would probably have another to bring under their notice before long—in order to warn the Government as to the course which they were pursuing, and to show that, under existing circumstances, the constabulary and its management in that country were a machinery in the hands of the Popish priesthood. It was, he knew, the fashion to attribute the outrages which had taken place in the north of Ireland to the Orangemen; but that he contended—and he was no Orangeman—was a cruel misrepresentation. They were not the cause of the riots in Belfast, for everybody knew that they were excited by a treasonable procession which had a short time previously
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  taken place in Dublin. They had, however, so far as he could see, been guilty of no crime, unless it were a sensitiveness with respect to the support of the Protestant religion as by law established. The noble Marquess concluded by moving an Address for—
  "Copy of the Conviction made at the Hearing of the Magistrates of the Petty Sessions of Colooney in the county of Sligo, on Tuesday the 25th February last, and on the subsequent Jays, in the Case of the Complaint of Catharine Gaughran against Michael Hart, Wineford Hart, and others, on a Charge of assaulting and afterwards violently putting her in Duress on the 20th of January last, and there detaining her until released by a Magistrate's Warrant; and also of the Conviction of Sub Inspector Burke and others of the Police Force, having been present at that Outrage in open Day and declining to interfere and rescue Catharine Gaughran from the brutal Treatment she was receiving; and for a Copy of the Decision of the Inspector General of the Constabulary upon the Conduct of the Individuals of the Force inculpated upon that Occasion.
  EARL GRANVILLEhaving stated that there was no objection to the production of the papers.
  Motion agreed to.

COLONIAL NAVAL DEFENCE BILL.

  (No. 39.) SECOND BEADING.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET,in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, its object was to enable several of the colonial possessions of Her Majesty to make better provision for their own maritime defence. The question was one, he added, which had been under the consideration of the Colonial Office and of the Admiralty for some time, various proposals with respect to it having been made by the Australian Colonies, who had offered themselves to undertake a large portion of the necessary expenditure. Much difficulty was, however, experienced on the subject—not so much in a colonial as in an international point of view; but that difficulty had, he thought, been met by the present Bill, which provided that the whole expense of the proposed defensive operations should he undertaken by the colonies, hut that the arrangements for the purpose should be made by them in connection with the Home Government by means of Orders in Council. The effect of the Bill would, in the first place, be to create a Naval Reserve somewhat similar to that which existed in this country, and which would be enlisted in the colonies under similar conditions. At home the measure

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  for the creation of a Naval Reserve had been found very successful, for we had now between 16,000 and 17,000 men, all able-bodied seamen, who were almost all trained to gunnery. Something of the same kind would, he hoped, gradually grow up in the colonies. There was also a provision enabling officers in the naval service in this country to take service there, with the consent of the Admiralty. These officers would be invaluable for training and commanding this force; and in that way a most effective source of colonial defence would, he thought, be provided. The Government, he might add, had lately received a proposal from the colony of Victoria for building vessels in this country of a large class as well as of smaller vessels on the turret principle to enable them to defend their harbours. Provisions calculated to further those proposals as well as the others to which he adverted constituted the main features of the Bill, which, he trusted, would be found fully to answer the purpose.
  Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

PRIVATE BILL COSTS BILL—(No. 31.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  LORD HOUGHTON LORD HOUGHTON moved to insert in line I the words, "both Houses of Parliament," with the object of extending the power of awarding costs in certain cases of Private Bills, to Committees of the House of Lords; and other consequential Amendments in the several clauses of the Bill.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended, (No. 47.)

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  (No. 43.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF LONGFORD THE EARL OF LONGFORD moved, to reinsert a paragraph which had been omitted from the end of the second clause during the progress of the measure through that House. His object was to save the shareholders of two small railway companies in Ireland from being devoured by lawyers by providing distinctly that they should not be liable for more than the amount of their shares.
  Moved, after ("thereunder") p. 1, line 19, to add—
  "It being however hereby declared that no Person, Company, or Body Corporate, by reason of his or their being a Shareholder of any Railway Company made bankrupt under any such Adjudication of Bankruptcy, is or shall be liable to pay or contribute any Sum beyond the Extent of his or their Shares in the Capital of the Company not paid up at the Time of such Adjudication."
  LORD CRANWORTHsaid, he should oppose the Amendment.
  EARL ST. GERMANSsupported it on the ground that it would restore the Bill to the condition in which it was originally submitted to that House, with the sanction of the Irish Law Officers and of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that the Select Committee had recommended that the Bill should be passed in its present form, after hearing an exposition of the law as it now stood, from a learned Gentleman who was a Member of the other House.
  LORD DUNSANYtrusted their Lordships would assent to the Amendment. As the law stood at present, a very grievous hardship was inflicted upon shareholders who had invested their money in Irish Railway Companies in the belief that no alteration could be made in the law affecting their liability.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, the Bill now before the House proposed to remedy an omission in the Bill of 1857. Since that period hundreds of thousands of pounds had been invested by shareholders in railway companies in the belief that they would be liable only to the amount of their shares. Several gentlemen of fortune who had become shareholders on that supposition were now on the verge of ruin.
  LORD CHELMSFORDhoped the House would support the decision come to by the Committee, and reject the Amendment proposed by his noble Friend.
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 18; Not-Contents 21: Majority 3.

  CONTENTS.

  York, Archp.

  Saint Germans, E. [Teller.]

  Salisbury, M.

  Sydney, V.

  Amherst, E.

  Graham, E. (D. Montrose.)

  Clifton, L. (E. Darnley.)

  Dunsany, L.

  Harrowby, E.

  Ebury, L.

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  Foley, L.

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.) [Teller.]

  Lyveden, L.

  Monson, L.

  Somerhill, L. (M. Clanricarde.)

  Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

  Wentworth, L,

  Raglan, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Westbury, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Hawarden, V. [Teller.]

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.) [Teller.]

  Cleveland, D.

  Somerset, D.

  Belper, L.

  Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.)

  Bath, M.

  Chelmsford, L.

  Airlie, E.

  Clandeboye, L. (L. Dufferin and Claneboye.)

  Cadogan, E.

  De Grey, E.

  Cranworth, L.

  Derby, E.

  Dartrey, L. (L. Cremorne.)

  Granville, E.

  Hardwicke, E.

  Redesdale, L.

  Malmesbury, E.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Verulam, E.

  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till to-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.