Lords Sitting of 21 March 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (£175,650).*
Second Reading—Affirmations (Scotland) (40).

AFFIRMATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  (No. 40) SECOND READING.
  LORD CHELMSFORD, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, its object was to extend to criminal courts in Scotland the same practice which already-existed in the civil courts—that of allowing persons who had conscientious objections to take an oath to make a solemn affirmation as to the truth of their statements. Some of the inconveniences of the discrepancy at present existing in this respect between the laws of Scotland and those of the rest of the United Kingdom were manifested on a recent occasion, when the sheriffs would not allow a witness to make a declaration in their Court
  2
  on the ground that no Order in Council had been issued extending the operation of the existing Act to that Court, although Her Majesty had power to do so. The Bill had passed unanimously through the other House of Parliament, and he hoped their Lordships would not offer any opposition to it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORhaving pointed out that the language of the 3rd section would need some slight alteration;
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  IMPRISONMENT ON CIVIL PROCESS, MIDDLESEX.—QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS TOWNSHENDasked, If Her Majesty's Government intended to take any Steps to rectify an Omission in the Regulations made by the Justices of Middlesex, in consequence of which there is no provision made for the Reception of Persons committed to Prison in default of

  3
  paying Moneys ordered in Civil Process by Police Courts.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, there could be no doubt that the present arrangements had been attended with great evils. The point of law which had been raised would come before the Court of Queen's Bench for decision early next term, and the Government therefore did not intend to take any steps in the meantime. They had, however, been in communication with the Middlesex magistrates with a view of inducing them to provide the requisite accommodation pending the decision of the legal question.

CASUAL POOR—METROPOLIS.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQTESS TOWNSHENDasked, Whether the Practice adopted by Guardians of the Poor in the Metropolis of turning out of Workhouses at early Hours in the Morning casual poor Persons who have no Employment or Places of Residence has met with the direct Sanction of the Poor Law Board; and whether, on the contrary, in accordance with the Law for the Belief of the Poor, Guardians ought not to provide Food and Shelter at all Times for all Destitute Persons, irrespective of their Places of Settlement, until they may choose to discontinue receiving it or until they are passed to their respective Parishes. The noble Marquess said that then these temporary resting places for the poor were frequently such as to be altogether unworthy of the civilization of the country, and yet from these places of shelter, miserable as they were, the poor were turned out long before the sun had warmed the streets, and without any possibility of finding shelter elsewhere. Under such circumstances it was not to be wondered at that beggars should infest the streets, or that persons should be tempted to the commission of crime. Only last Sunday he had witnessed pitiable cases of exposure to the harsh and blighting weather of that day. He had been greatly surprised at the statement made in another place by the President of the Poor Law Board to the effect that the Act of last Session had worked satisfactorily.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he wished his noble Friend had brought the subject before the House in a somewhat more formal manner, inasmuch as it related to the success or failure of a measure which had been passed last Session for
  4
  the relief of the casual poor, and involved the solution of a very difficult question. He had himself moved for Returns on the subject which had been presented to the House; and further Returns had been ordered by the other House. The question was far more difficult and important than the noble Lord imagined. The question of the treatment of the casual poor was one affecting not only the operation of the Poor Law but the habits of the English people. It was, he believed, the fact that while a great many of the workhouse wards, which had been built at considerable expense, were by no means full during the most inclement weather, there were other places of refuge, which had been provided by the charity of some munificent private persons, which were crowded to excess. That being so it was quite clear that the public money was to a great extent thrown away, although there could be no doubt that the excellent ladies by whom those refuges were established were actuated by the purest motives. He had been informed that there was only one night during the past year in which the refuges were full, and that was the night preceding the execution of Müller, when an enormous number of the Vagrant class came up from the country. To make these wards too agreeable to those who frequented them would be to attract large numbers of the vagrant poor from the rural districts. Indeed, the impression on his own mind was that there had been during the last three or four years a great increase in the number of vagrant poor wandering through the streets of the metropolis. The matter became, therefore, every day of a more pressing character, and he thought some measure should be adopted to remedy the existing state of things, and to provide in some fitting way for persons in that miserable condition. The authorities at the Poor Law Board were, he believed, most desirous to improve that condition, and how to do so without attracting the poor from the country to the city was the problem to be solved. The question, however, was, as he said before, a very difficult one, and he wished there was Borne Member of the House who, from his official position, or his practical acquaintance with the evils which existed, would be enabled to submit it to their Lordships' notice with the authority and in the manner which its importance demanded. An occasion had only the other day arisen

  5
  when the presence of an official connected with the Poor Law Department might be secured in that House; and seeing how desirable it was that there should be somebody to answer any questions which might be put on so important a subject as the administration of the Poor Law, he thought that point was one deserving of consideration—especially when it was borne in mind that both the President and Secretary of the Poor Law Board, and the Secretary and Under Secretary of State for the Home Department sat in the other House.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was glad his noble Friend (Lord Houghton) had interfered between the noble Marquess and himself, and that he had exhibited so much fairness in dealing with the very difficult question of how it was possible to deal with our casual poor without increasing habits of vagrancy. As to the complaint that there was nobody to represent the Poor Law Board in their Lordships' House, he could only say that the charge which was most frequently made against the Government in that respect was that the public Departments were to too great an extent represented there, and not sufficiently in the other House of Parliament. Be that as it might, he was quite sure that among the official Members of their Lordships' House there were many noble Lords—among others his noble Friend himself—who were perfectly qualified to deal with the question. In reply to the noble Marquess (the Marquess Townshend) he might state that the Poor Law Board was not aware that the casual poor were turned out of the workhouse early in the morning in the manner he had described. The Poor Law authorities had certainly given no order to that effect, and the fact was, he believed, that many of those poor people discharged themselves in the morning of their own accord. If, he might add, any of these poor persons represented themselves as utterly destitute and requiring relief, they were handed over to the relieving officer, or if they stood in need of medical attendance or food, there were regulations providing that they should receive the necessary assistance through the relieving officer. A Minute had been issued by the Department this winter going into great detail as to the duties which those officers would have to perform, and as to the manner in which they should be discharged.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY, admitting the difficulties of the subject, said, he thought it was a matter deserving of consideration whether the vagrant poor of the metropolis should not be placed rather under the control of the police than of the parochial authorities. He also expressed a hope that his noble Friend who had spoken second in the discussion would take upon himself the duty of moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the matter.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till Thursday next half past Ten o'clock.